Dear sir or madam,
I would have written directly to you, but since you choose not to divulge your email address, I will try to respond to your tirade. This could get a little long, but you have opened several worm-cans.

"If you actually think the story of the rich man and Lazarus is literal, then you believe that you will be able to recline in heaven and watch the unsaved fry and scream for a drop of water for eternity without end. (you didn't answer that part of my question) If you actually believe that is heaven, I don't want to go there."

Your above quote is a good example of a comment that someone who shouldn't be a teacher would make. Jesus doesn't mention "heaven" anywhere in the text of the rich man and Lazarus. You're only making all that stuff up in your own mind because your cult religion doesn't allow you to believe what Jesus actually said. Does Jesus say that Abraham was in heaven at that time? I didn't think so. I guess your cult religion's teaching on "soul sleep" kind of goes out the door too IF you were allowed to believe what Jesus actually said.....like Nas does.

1. "Jesus doesn't mention heaven..." Luke 17:22 "...the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom." OK, it doesn't say heaven. Where do you think Abraham is? Is he in purgatory? Is he in Kansas? Forgive me for making an assumption. From my perspective, this proves this is at least an allegory if not an outright parable.

2. "Your cult religion doesn't allow you to believe what Jesus actually said." Yes, I believe what He said, including when He said "If you love me, keep my commandments."(Jn.14:15) What He said in our story is the bottom line from verse 31, "...If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead." Jesus' own life, death, and resurrection proved His statement. They didn't believe Him, and ended up killing Him. Years later, they killed Stephen for stating that Jesus was the messiah that they had killed. You can call me a cultist but you can't say I don't believe what Jesus said, that just isn't true.

3. "I guess your cult religion's teaching on "soul sleep" kind of goes out the door too IF you were allowed to believe what Jesus actually said." You're really having fun throwing that cult word around. For what it's worth, my understanding of a cult in the religious sense is a belief that you can be saved some other way than by Jesus Christ and Him crucufied. I assure you that is my belief. Now, to your "soul sleep" statement. This makes me wonder if you are QWERTY under a new name. He has brought that up repeatedly. I have felt that I should address that for a long time now, so here goes...

First of all, if you take this parable or allegory (your choice)as a basis for doctrine of anything besides the point Jesus was making - that the Jews would reject Him and the salvation He offers - you have a lot of trouble. One, if you have good things in this life, you have your reward and you are going to hell. Two, if you are poor and have had a bad life you will go to Abraham's bosom (wherever you think that is - apparently you don't think it is heaven. Three, Those in "Abraham's bosom" can communicate with those in torment, which, it seems would not make for a very nice paradise, especially if it was one of my family screaming for a drop of water to cool their tongue throughout the ages. I hope you can see this is not a literal happening, but another parable, as is explained in "Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples."
As you can see here, He explained things to His disciples, but He did not speak literally to the leaders who already had cold hearts. The doctrine of what you call sould-sleep is in harmony with the Bible, ansd I could take up way too much space to give you all of the texts, so I will just give you a few, and if you want the rest, my email address IS posted at all times.
1. Our origin - Gen 2:7 God made us from dust and breathed into us life and we became "living souls. So Dust + Breath = living soul. Pull that back one step and Dust - Breath = death.
2. Is the soul immortal? - Ezekiel 18:4 God says all souls are His and the soul that sins shall die. (no gray area here.) (also note that the serpent in the garden started the big lie in Gen. 3:4 "you SHALL NOT SURELY DIE" right after God said that if you take the fruit you SHALL SURELY DIE.Gen 2:17")
3. Who has immortality then? - I Timothy 6:15,16 says "GOD ALONE" has immortality. It is something we will "put on" when Jesus comes back to get us. I Cor. 15:53,54 says mortals will "put on" immortality, and by the way, vs. 51 says we "sleep in the meantime - something you don't accept.
4. What is death like then? - Jhn 11:11-14 "...and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." Now here's a Lazarus story that IS literal! Just think rationally for a minute. When Jesus said "Lazarus, come forth, if Lazarus had gone to his reward,(maybe Abraham's bosom, although if there are very many righteous, just how big is Abraham's bosom?) I believe he would have been upset and said something like "why did you drag me back to earth? I was enjoying my reward." His sisters understood about sleeping in death, as you can see in verses 23 and 24 "Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." What would be the point of a resurrection "at the last day" if we go directly to our reward? Think about it! Why do we call the last day "judgment day?" If we are judged at death, who would be left for "judgment day." Think about it!
5. A few verses of many describing death - "Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Notice dust - breath = death. Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun. (no mention of visiting with the beggar or Abraham here!) Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (no discussion here with the beggar or Lazarus) Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (notice - silence! sound like sleep?) Psa 6:5 For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" (still silence)
6. How does it really happen then? "1Th 4:13-16 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (it looks like to not understand death as a sleep constitutes "ignorance." These are not my words, they are out of God's word.)
7. Will the dead get to heaven sooner than the living? - "1Thess 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (prevent here means "precede")For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the answer is no-we will go to heaven TOGETHER at the return of the Lord.)
8. What (who) constitutes life? "1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

God marks the graves of His sleeping saints and it is clear above that when the Lord returns, we will go to heaven TOGETHER. The dead will not get there even a moment sooner!

Now, I hope you and QWERTY (if you are't actually QWERTY) realize that I haven't pulled the sleep of saints form thin air, but from the word of God. I asked my dear uncle Harry Wenger for material to refute this when I was studying with SDA's 37 years ago, and he couldn't, because it isn't there!

Please pray for Holy Spirit's guidance as you look this over. My prayer is not to win arguments, but that all will be saved.

Oh, and by the way, NAS keeps saying I don't believe in hell. That simply is not true. I believe in a literal, burning hell. I believe there will be degrees of torment. I also believe that when sin and sinners have been totally annihilated, the fire will go out, just like the fire of Sodom went out, which like it or not, the Bible says is an example of "eternal fire." I didn't write that either...(Jude 7) And since NAS doesn't think that could possibly be referring eternal hell fire, add 2Peter 2:6 "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; (an example of what will happen to the ungodly) Nah 1:9,10 "What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while [they be] folden together [as] thorns, and while they are drunken [as] drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry. (you guys in Kansas know well whay happens to stubble. It burns up.)Isaiah 47:14 "Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: [there shall] not [be] a coal to warm at, [nor] fire to sit before it." I suppose you could argue that this text isn't talking about hell, but it IS talking about what happens to the wicked. Notice here that after the destruction, not even a coal is left to warm yourself.

In closing, I don't have to prove to you that I am an effective teacher. I have, however, given you scripture for every thing that I have said. May the Holy Spirit be your Teacher is my prayer.

onward and upward

Galen Miller,

[1. "Jesus doesn't mention heaven..." Luke 17:22 "...the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom." OK, it doesn't say heaven. Where do you think Abraham is? Is he in purgatory? Is he in Kansas? Forgive me for making an assumption. From my perspective, this proves this is at least an allegory if not an outright parable.]

Galen, I very rarely if ever read long wordy posts on a forum. I do sometimes start out reading them, but then I STOP just as soon as I come across obvious error or ignorance, of which both are displayed in your above statement. Go back and fix your post if you would like to carry on a discussion with me. "Luke 17:22" is an incorrect reference, and is an obvious error!!!!!

As far as ignorance goes, do you seriously NOT know where Abraham was at the time Jesus spoke His words? Where do you think Jesus went for 3 days after His death, and before His resurrection? Nowhere? Heaven? Let me give you a hint. Nowhere and Heaven are both the wrong answers. Get back with me after you do your homework. I'm NOT going to do it for you, but I'll let you know when you get the right answer.

When you find out where Jesus went, then you'll know where Abraham was.

OK, you've had your fun in judging me ignorant. Fortunately, the only judgment of me that matters will be carried out by someone Who also died for my sins.

The obvious scripture reference error was because chapter 17 is on the same page of the Bible I was reading from and I got on the wrong side of it. It is 16:22. I suspect you were able to find it, but in your zeal to discredit me, you had to make the jab.

As far as where Jesus went, I believe He laid right there in His tomb until God raised Him. I will carefully give you a reference for that: ...double-checking... yes, it is John 20:17.
Here Jesus says He hasn't yet ascended to His father, but He's going to. As far as where Abraham's bosom is, it is a moot point because that is not the focus of the story. I am curious though where you think the story placed him. Perhaps you will choose not to tell me though because you no doubt think I gave you a wrong answer to your quiz. I gave you what the Bible says and I can't improve on that.

I fully understand your reticence to read a long post and I hesitated to do it, but felt there wasn't a short way to respond to your judgment that I am a cultist due to beliefs I hold that are based soundly in scripture. Admittedly it doesn't fit with mainstream traditions of men, but there's no salvation in them.

Galen Miller,





[As far as where Jesus went, I believe He laid right there in His tomb until God raised Him. I will carefully give you a reference for that: ...double-checking... yes, it is John 20:17.] [ I gave you what the Bible says and I can't improve on that.]

Let me help you out a little, Galen. I think that you and I both agree on where Jesus' BODY OF FLESH was during those 3 days. What does the Bible say concerning where His SOUL was?





[OK, you've had your fun in judging me ignorant.....but in your zeal to discredit me, you had to make the jab.]

You mean it wasn't as funny as you suggesting the possibility of me believing that Abraham was in Kansas?

Get back to me after you've completed your homework assignment.

"Get back to me after you've completed your homework assignment."

Ecc 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (spirit here is translated from "ruwach" which means "breath.")

So, my Bible says Jesus rested in the tomb while He was without breath. When His breath was restored, He bacame a "living soul" again, just like Adam when God breathed life into him. (Gen. 2:7)

Now just in case you want to say His soul went to heaven, take a look at Acts 2:31 "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption." (No, Jesus didn't go to hell fire, this word is translated from hades which means "the lower regions," or "the realm of the dead.")In other words -the grave!

As far as where Abraham is literally, I would expect he is also in his sepulchre, just like David.
Acts 2:29 "Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." Add verse 34, "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool."

While I gave you and NAS many scriptures the other day about hell annihilating the wicked, there is one more that is interesting: Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD [shall be] as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Now there's one that's hard to twist into eternal burning! Hell is eternal in its effect -annihilation of sin and sinners - but the fires will go out when that has been accomplished.

<<< Get back to me after you've completed your homework assignment.>>>

Galen's not stupid, and he is not a child. You will do better to show more respect. I do understand a long, drawn out contention often lead to sarcasm, anger, and some sharp jabs, especially when hurtful topics are involved like avoidance, marriage intrusion, etc., but your issue with Galen is not that. You hit the pavement being disrespectful.

[You will do better to show more respect.....You hit the pavement being disrespectful.]

You mean like you do with your sexual insinuations towards BrentU?

Shut up, put your dunce cap on, and go sit down in the back of the classroom where you belong, Scott.

Your right buddy I should't have written what i did to Brent, but you don't have an interminable contentious history with Galen like I do with Brent. You come right out of the chute being with a bad attitude.

"Galen's not stupid, and he is not a child. You will do better to show more respect. I do understand a long, drawn out contention often lead to sarcasm, anger, and some sharp jabs, especially when hurtful topics are involved like avoidance, marriage intrusion, etc., but your issue with Galen is not that. You hit the pavement being disrespectful."

Of course, this might be true. Then again, Agrois may believe that being nice and being clear are mutually exclusive in this case, and is simply doing the "right thing" by being clear. Who knows? In any case, Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.

Edited, inappropriate comment, although true.

[You come right out of the chute being with a bad attitude.]

I'm having light-hearted fun, Scott. I'm sure that a man of your intellect can discern the difference between what I'm doing and what you have been doing towards BrentU? Don't sweat the small stuff, Scott. It will only add to your bitterness.

Galen Miller,



It appears as though you have made a reasonable attempt at your homework assignment, and for that I am well pleased. Sometime tonight I will review what you have written and get back with you tomorrow with my comments.



[Now just in case you want to say His soul went to heaven]

I am very disappointed in you for making such a statement, Galen! This reveals to me that you have NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION IN CLASS!

In my very first post on this thread, I said the following.....

"Where do you think Jesus went for 3 days after His death, and before His resurrection? Nowhere? Heaven? Let me give you a hint. Nowhere and Heaven are both the wrong answers."

Galen you keep talking about two different things at different times, yet trying to tie them together
every now and then.

"As far as where Abraham is literally, I would expect he is also in his sepulchre, just like David."

Here your talking abouth their physical bodies. What about their spiritual bodies? Look in Luke chapter
16 again. This has all taken place BEFORE the resurrection of Christ.I don't know where YOU think his
spiritual body is, but it sure isn't in the same place as the rich man, whether you believe this to be
a parable or not. BTW, I have called 4 different pastors in our town and ask each one about this , all
four of them have said without hesitation it IS LITERAL because Jesus uses names, he does not in parables.
I have also placed a call to the SDA office in Wichita but he has not returned my call. I am assuming this is the SDA teaching.
Doesn't make any difference because the MO of the story is the same.
You're dead wrong about the hell fire going out but, makes no difference to me because, hell is going to be
just that: HELL. No beer drinking or party's as many on here believe.All of this you keep trying to tie into
this world, the hell is in the spirit world, not in these bodies.
You better re-think this going from holdeman to SDA, you may have been much better off as holdeman.

Also Galen the scriptures you have reffered to are mostly old testament, again, before resurrection.
I may sound like a holdeman here, but "oh,, thats the old testament!"
What do you believe happens to the spirit of a person upon the death ?

Sigh. Jerry, please tell me you aren't AGROIS and I will try to not be so suspicious anymore...

Agrois, sorry, I must have been writing mine after you sent yours! Seems we have both ask similar questions!

cupcake,


[Sigh. Jerry, please tell me you aren't AGROIS]

I'm sorry, but I won't be able 2 do that.

This is what I believe.....

I believe that Jesus spent 3 days and 3 nights in the heart/lower parts of the earth.

I do not believe that His physical body of flesh went there, but rather, His conscious soul.

I believe that the place where He went to in the heart of the earth is called "Sheol" in Hebrew, and "Hades" in Greek.

I believe that in Sheol/Hades there is a great chasm fixed which separates those who are in agony and torment from those who are comforted in Paradise.

I believe that on the very day that Jesus' body of flesh died, He went to Paradise in Sheol/Hades.

I believe that on the very day that Jesus' body of flesh died, that one of the thieves on a cross next to Him was with Jesus in Paradise also.

I believe that Jesus went to the same place where Abraham had been ever since Abraham's body of flesh died and Abraham was "gathered to his people."

I believe that during the 3 days and 3 nights that Jesus was in the heart/lower parts of the earth that He made proclamation to those spirits who were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah during the construction of the ark.

I do not believe that Jesus' Father left Jesus' soul in Sheol/Hades, or allowed Jesus' flesh to undergo decay.....thus the resurrection.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:40)

Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? (Ephesians 4:9)

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul" (Matthew 10:28)

"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' (Luke 16:25,26)

And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)

Abraham breathed his last and died in a ripe old age, an old man and satisfied with life; and he was gathered to his people. (Genesis 25:8)

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. (1 Peter 3:18-20)

he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. (Acts 2:31)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I believe that groups like the SDA's and the JW's make the exact same mistake on certain issues (like their doctrine of "soul sleep" for example) by drawing conclusions concerning certain Hebrew and Greek words of which they only know enough about to display their ignorance. I have found that they will take a word in the original language, quote the verse that it's in to show how the word is obviously used in the context of that particular verse, and then conclude in their own minds (assume) that that's the way that word is always to be understood in scripture. When they come across scripture which clearly refutes their theology they'll either write it off as not literal, or butcher it to make it fit their theology.



For thus says the Lord GOD, "When I make you a desolate city, like the cities which are not inhabited, when I bring up the deep over you and the great waters cover you, then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth, like the ancient waste places, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set glory in the land of the living. I will bring terrors on you and you will be no more; though you will be sought, you will never be found again," declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 26:19-21)

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

When Jesus said "Where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" he was referring to this verse in Isaiah. in the verse in Isaiah what is clearly being referenced is the trash dump outside Jerusalem, Gehenna, which in many cases in the Bible is the word that is being used when it is translated hell. This is not a place of eternal torment. This verse refers to the "carcasses" of those who have transgressed, which is the dead body. So as you can see, this verse cannot be used to support the idea of eternal torment.


For whatever it's worth, here are some Strong's definitions for the words in the verse;

CARCASS:1) corpse, carcass, monument, stela
a) corpse (of man)
b) carcass (of animals)

WORM;1) worm, scarlet stuff, crimson
a) worm - the female 'coccus ilicis'
b) scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet
1) the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis"
2) worm, maggot
a) worm, grub
b) the worm "coccus ilicis"
"When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)" (Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)


DIE;1) to die, kill, have one executed
a) (Qal)
1) to die
2) to die (as penalty), be put to death
3) to die, perish (of a nation)
4) to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)
b) (Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch
c) (Hiphil) to kill, put to death
d) (Hophal)
1) to be killed, be put to death
a) to die prematurely

FIRE; 1) fire
a) fire, flames
b) supernatural fire (accompanying theophany)
c) fire (for cooking, roasting, parching)
d) altar-fire
e) God's anger (fig.)

QUENCHED; 1) to quench, put out, be put out, be quenched, be extinguished
a) (Qal) to be quenched, be extinguished
b) (Piel) to quench, extinguish

Agrois, nicely and clearly put. Also entirely in agreement with John Holdeman as he wrote in the "Mirror of Truth"; except you have more detail (as far as I recall from H writings, have not read that for years). Thanks.

Agrois, that was an excellent post.I agree with you, and also Hanks assement. Very well written.

Thank you for telling me what you believe. I think it is important to know what you believe and why. I do not expect to change your mind, in fact I never expected to change my own, as you probably know I am Frank Wenger's grandson. I openly showed you from scripture what I believe and the rest is up to the Holy Spirit for both of us.

"I believe that groups like the SDA's and the JW's make the exact same mistake on certain issues (like their doctrine of "soul sleep" for example) by drawing conclusions concerning certain Hebrew and Greek words of which they only know enough about to display their ignorance. I have found that they will take a word in the original language, quote the verse that it's in to show how the word is obviously used in the context of that particular verse, and then conclude in their own minds (assume) that that's the way that word is always to be understood in scripture. When they come across scripture which clearly refutes their theology they'll either write it off as not literal, or butcher it to make it fit their theology."

I think this is rather strong, as the first thing that came to mind is the excuses many on here make about not following Bible baptism. I have never called that ignorance, but putting tradition above the word of God.

Muttherlode gave you a couple answers, so I won't repeat those, but I do want to look at a couple scriptures you used.

Matth 10:28 makes a very good argument for the way I believe. As you see, the possibility of the "soul" dying is presented here by Jesus!

Luke 23:43 is an interesting scripture, and used many times to "prove" we go directly to our reward. You probably know that man has placed the punctuation in the Bible. Move the comma, and the whole picture changes. EG: "I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise." NOW, move the comma forward one word - "I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise." I have never, ever, heard of paradise being in sheol before. Hank made it sound like that is how the H believe. This is news to me. I grew up under the preaching of many of H's finest, and never heard that even once. You need some explanation how the thief cold be in paradise with Jesus "today," because Jesus told Mary after He was resurrected that He hadn't yet returned to His Father.

Ezekiel 26:21"...though you are sought for, you will never be found again." This sounds a lot like annihilation to me, doesn't it to you, too, in a moment of honesty?

I can only pray that when the trumpet sounds, we will both be ushered into the "joy of our Lord." I would like to leave you with a couple observations though. When Jesus comes back to get us He says "His reward is with Him." (Rev. 22:12) To me, this says that we don't go to our reward before the judgment day. I can only guess what it says to you since I seem to be showing my ignorance regularly in your estimation.

On the subject of ignorance, I would like to, in defense of my denomination, point out that there are many highly educated students of the Bible in our ranks that have studied, and continue to study, God's word from the original languages. While the Holy Spirit is the preeminent Teacher, you seem to infer that to study the Bible with attention to the original languages shows ignorance! That is hard to swallow. Everything that is written for us in english is at the hands of translators. I do not agree that to study the original language and intent of words or punctuation displays ignorance. While I have no desire to get into a spitting contest, Scott's statement about the pot and kettle comes to mind.

Again, I pray that when the Holy Spirit is poured out in latter rain power, whichever one of us is mistaken will accept the truth, so that we can "ever be with the Lord" (although I never thought of it being in sheol!)

Blessings,
Galen

"Also Galen the scriptures you have reffered to are mostly old testament, again, before resurrection.I may sound like a holdeman here, but "oh,, thats the old testament!" What do you believe happens to the spirit of a person upon the death?"

I appreciate you asking without calling me ignorant first. (I guess you wouldn't ask if you thought I was totally ignorant...)I do believe that the original post on this thread has enough material to support sleeping in the grave until Jesus comes. The most obvious is the entire story of Lazarus. Read the story in John chapter 11 with an open mind and see if Jesus is bringing Lazarus "forth" from the tomb or "down" from heaven, or a new concept for me "up" from sheol. At any rate, I believe Jesus would have told Lazarus' sisters that he was already enjoying his reward instead of saying simply "he is asleep." Notice too, the sisters understand that the resurrection is "at the last day." Now before you say "but that's to resurrect his physical body," what would be the point of resurrecting old dry bones when we get a new body anyways? There isn't a logical reason to drag our "souls" back down to earth to be reunited with our bodies if it's all spirit world anyways! It goes back to creation (sorry,old testament) when body and breath were united and "man became a living soul."

Just read the whole story from the perspective of someone who believes in death as a sleep and see how well it fits. Notice too that Lazarus would have been upset if he got dragged back down, (up?) from paradise, yet there is no discussion of that.

You asked what I believe happens to the spirit of someone who dies. If you go back up to my original post, I think I made it clear in number 5.

1Jo 5:11 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

Ok Galen, thanks for your answers.

>>>Agrois, nicely and clearly put. Also entirely in agreement with John Holdeman as he wrote in the "Mirror of Truth"; except you have more detail (as far as I recall from H writings, have not read that for years). Thanks.<<<

Thank you Hank. I never read what John Holdeman said about this, but what you say is interesting to know.

>>>Agrois, that was an excellent post.I agree with you, and also Hanks assement. Very well written.<<<

Thank you Nas. I wanted to start out by stating why I believe what I believe. The next step will be to respond to several comments that Galen made regarding the scriptures I presented, as well as refute certain scripture which he has presented which supposedly backs up "soul sleep."

Galen Miller,

>>>as you probably know I am Frank Wenger's grandson.<<<

No offense, but who's Frank Wenger?

>>>Muttherlode gave you a couple answers, so I won't repeat those<<<

Oh, was her post on this thread suppose to be for me? I know that there have been different topics discussed here lately and "Hell" has been one of them, but I have been trying to limit my discussion to the "soul sleep" issue. My belief is that if one can not see the error in the doctrine of "soul sleep," then there's no sense going any further with them. I am not one who likes to jump from one issue to another debating with a whole bunch of different people at the same time either. I don't have time to do that and still have the time to do certain other things I want to do as well.

>>>but I do want to look at a couple scriptures you used.<<<

I read what you said, and will respond back tomorrow morning.

>>>you seem to infer that to study the Bible with attention to the original languages shows ignorance! That is hard to swallow.<<<

You don't seem to read very well, Galen. Let me repeat myself.....

I believe that groups like the SDA's and the JW's make the exact same mistake on certain issues (like their doctrine of "soul sleep" for example) by drawing conclusions concerning certain Hebrew and Greek words of which they only know enough about to display their ignorance. I have found that they will take a word in the original language, quote the verse that it's in to show how the word is obviously used in the context of that particular verse, and then conclude in their own minds (assume) that that's the way that word is always to be understood in scripture.

Galen said.....>>>Matth 10:28 makes a very good argument for the way I believe. As you see, the possibility of the "soul" dying is presented here by Jesus!<<<

The TRUTH is that Matthew 10:28 does NOT make a good argument for the way the SDA's believe, and Galen knows it.

The SDA's believe that when a person dies, THAT IS ALSO WHEN HIS SOUL DIES because he is no longer breathing.....PERIOD.

And they will present scripture showing how the word "soul" in the original language is used to back that up. You see, many times in scripture the word for "soul" in the original language simply refers to a person, animal, or bug which happens to be breathing. And then when that person, animal, or bug is killed or dies, then that which was a living "soul" (or living "being") is now dead. So, in that sense and usage of the word "soul" in the original language, the SDA's are correct.....the "soul" ("being") that had breath died.

But is that how the word "soul" is ALWAYS used in scripture?

No.

The word "soul" in the original language has more than just one meaning/definition, and Matthew 10:28 clearly shows us another one. Let's look at Matthew 10:28 and see what Jesus said.....

"Do not fear those who kill the body, but are UNABLE to kill the soul."

Now anybody with the slightest bit of intellectual honesty can see that the word "soul" here carries a completely different meaning/definition than the way I described above.

But contrary to what Jesus said, the SDA's COMPLETELY REJECT the notion that the soul can live on once the body has died!

Oh well!

Whatever!

And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the alter the SOULS of THOSE WHO HAD BEEN SLAIN because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be KILLED EVEN AS THEY HAD BEEN, should be completed also. (Rev. 6:9-11)

Galen said....>>>I asked my dear uncle Harry Wenger for material to refute this when I was studying with SDA's 37 years ago, and he couldn't, because it isn't there!<<<

Just because Galen's dear uncle Harry coudn't refute "soul sleep" doesn't mean that the material to refute "soul sleep" isn't there. Who knows, maybe Galen's dear uncle Harry DID refute it, but Galen just didn't want to see it! There's two sides to every story, you know.

I have considered the idea of soul sleep. And for those who claim the soul never dies, or cannot die, what about the verse that says "the soul that sinneth it shall die"? Sometimes it's all in how you read a verse, based on what you already believe.

>>>I have considered the idea of soul sleep.<<<

That's nice, VS.

I believe that everyone should be familiar with and weigh both sides of the issue (I sometimes refer to this as "doing your homework").

When I posted what I believed about souls (including Jesus' soul) going to Sheol/Hades, I was quite surprised to find out that it was a "new concept" for Galen, who has been studying the scriptures for more than 37 years.

What I believe regarding this issue is the Orthodox Christian view, and it is believed by many, if not most Christian denominations.

I hear that even John Holdeman got it right!



>>>And for those who claim the soul never dies, or cannot die, what about the verse that says "the soul that sinneth it shall die"?<<<

Galen also mentioned that verse in his opening post on this thread. I'll make sure to specifically cover that in my tomorrow morning's post.

"No offense, but who's Frank Wenger?"

No offense taken. I made the apparently mistaken assumption that you were an ex-Holdeman. I think it is safe to say most ex's know who he and uncle Harry are. I will just say they were in H leadership from Moundridge, KS. (both have died at a ripe old age)

"And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the alter the SOULS of THOSE WHO HAD BEEN SLAIN because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be KILLED EVEN AS THEY HAD BEEN, should be completed also. (Rev. 6:9-11)"

I see we now have another place for our "immortal" soul to wait - under an altar! So now, we have hell, sheol, Paradise, heaven, and under an altar.

OK, read this chapter and tell me with a straight face that it is literal. There are white,red,and pale horses, beasts,and, of course, the Lamb. Also, think about the reality of a "stack" of souls under an altar somewhere. (granted you have allowed many choices for location!) In case you believe blood can talk, look at what God said about Abel's blood - that it cried up from the ground.(Gen 4:10) It can be understood that just like Abel's blood, which was innocent, "cries" for justice, This scripture from Revelation can be understood the same way.

You should have stopped quoting at verse 10 though, because verse 11 fits perfectly with sleeping until Jesus has the trumpets blown! "...they were told they should rest for a little while longer..."

I realize that it is unlikely that you are going to budge from your position, and that's OK as long as the Holy Spirit doesn't convict you of something different. It's just interesting that you take your doctrine from apocalyptic language and allegory when Jesus said "plainly" Lazarus is asleep and clarified that means dead. (John 11:11-13) In 1 Thess. 4:15 it clearly says that we who are alive will not precede those who are asleep. (my margin says "dead") I realize that we are not limited to heaven or earth in your multiple destination system, so I guess this argument holds no water for you. John 5:28 & 29 is a little tough for even you though, because the Bible clearly states that the dead will hear God's voice from the grave! (not Sheol,not under an altar etc. etc. This reference also makes clear it is the righteous AND the unrighteous waiting in their graves. This scripture is clear to me - what do you do with it? And then there's that troublesome scripture in 1 Timothy 6:16 which reminds us that NOBODY has immortality yet. Romans 2:5-7 reiterates what I have quoted many other places that our reward is being "treasured up" for the day of judgment and verse 7 points out that we are "SEEKING" immortality! I have stuck to NT references. If we go back to God's friend David, we see things like "in the day we die, our thoughts perish" etc. (I have already referenced those, so I will spare you...)

Have a blessed weekend...

Galen,

I don't have the time to respond to all the errors that I see in your posts regarding this subject. I can't keep up with them all, I'm not fast enough. But I am willing to go REAL SLOW and tackle one point at a time.

My post this morning basically dealt with the dance you did around Matthew 10:28.

Jesus said, "Do not fear those who kill the body, but are UNABLE to kill the soul."

Without using a "multitude of words," can you look me straight in my cyber-eye and tell me that you believe it's EVEN POSSIBLE for a person's body to be killed without killing that person's soul at the same time?

And if you do think that it's possible, in what manner is it possible?



>>>I made the apparently mistaken assumption that you were an ex-Holdeman.<<<

i c

Genesis 5
24Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God (F)took him.

2 Kings 2
11As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.


Ezek 18:4
"For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son-both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die."

Phil 1:21-25
1 "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two:
I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." NIV

>>>what about the verse that says "the soul that sinneth it shall die"?<<<



The quote "the soul that sinneth it shall die" is found in Ezekiel 18:4.

Simply put, the word "soul" here is referring to/talking about nothing more and nothing less than a PERSON (a LIVING BEING), and the word "die" here is talking about physical death.

In Ezekiel chapter 18, the LORD specifically mentions the things that a wicked person does which will bring about physical death if that person does not turn from doing those things (the LORD does leave space for repentance). If that wicked person turns from his sin, then all of his transgressions which he has previously committed will not be remembered against him.

In Ezekiel chapter 18, the LORD also specifically mentions the things that a righteous person does which will not bring about physical death, but rather, grant life. However, if that righteous person turns away from doing the things that a righteous person does, and he does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, then he will die for doing so, and all of the righteous deeds which he had previously done will not be remembered.



* Most of the time in scripture the word for "soul" in the original language simply refers to a person, animal, or bug which happens to be breathing. And then when that person, animal, or bug is killed or dies, then that which was a living "soul" (a living "being") is now dead (a dead soul/being). This is how the word "soul" is to be understood in the passage "the soul that sinneth it shall die" found in Ezekiel 18:4.

I quoted the following verse.....

And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the alter the SOULS of THOSE WHO HAD BEEN SLAIN because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be KILLED EVEN AS THEY HAD BEEN, should be completed also. (Rev. 6:9-11)

and Galen replied.....>>>OK, read this chapter and tell me with a straight face that it is literal. There are white,red,and pale horses, beasts,and, of course, the Lamb.<<<

Galen, the words literally mean what they say. In other words, white means white, red means red, pale means pale, horses means horses, and Lamb means Lamb.

>>>Also, think about the reality of a "stack" of souls under an altar somewhere.<<<

I don't know where you're getting the word "stack" from. I've read this scripture in 2 different English translations and in 2 different Hebrew translations, and I didn't see the word "stack" anywhere. But souls means souls, under means under, and altar means altar.

My point is that the way the word "souls" is used here carries the same definition as in Matthew 10:28 (body dead/soul alive), which definition the SDA's don't seem to want to accept as legitimate. Nope, it just doesn't fit into the SDA's nicely wrapped box which contains the mentality that the word "soul" has to have the same meaning everytime it's used.



GALEN, U DIDN'T MISS MY October 18 2008, 4:51 PM POST, DID U?

I know you did not ask, but this subject does not interest me. I probably have a few things of scripture screwed up in my head... but believe Jesus understands, and forgives my imperfections.

God put a fine SDA man in my life shortly after we were separated from H; Floyd would often come to visit and we had great times together. In fact , occasionally he would come to worship with us on Sunday, and once I went with him on Saturday to his church. Floyd was a firm unashamed believer in Jesus Christ; once told me he enjoyed our visits because he realized that our conversation and acceptance of each other was not filtered through the Sabbath or other particular SDA beliefs, but through a common bond in Jesus Christ. I lost track of Floyd, he moved away because of his occupation, he was a logger, and I did not hear from him for several years till his mother called me one day and said Floyd died very unexpectedly. Was somewhat of a shock to all since he was only about 40 at the time.

I know Floyd and I will meet again; not because he knew his Bible well, was a kind fellow, nor because he kept the Sabbath, but because he had his trust firmly fixed on Jesus Christ... the same and only reason I can expect to enter into the pearly gates.

Miss you, Floyd.

I am friends with an SDA couple also. They are great! They do not hide the fact however, that they believe we would all do well to keep the Sabbath.

I have only known 2 SDA's personally, and they were both very nice people.

Scott; Floyd kept the Sabbath too, but he never suggested I was sinning by doing otherwise; and we thoroughly covered the subject in at least one or two of many discussions/visits. The truth is, our focus was entirely on a different level and we both agreed that the gospel was based on the vicarious death of Jesus Christ, fully sufficient for those who believe. Nor did he (nor I) believe that a believer can live in sin.

Well, I too believe we are saved by the work Jesus did for us by His death and resurrection. I also believe He is in heaven interceeding for me and anyone who claims His blood for the remission of sin. I do not believe anyone can be saved by keeping the law. In fact it is impossible to be saved by keeping the law, because if it was possible, Jesus wouldn't have had to die! I believe the law shows me what sin is, and I believe the royal law still exists. I keep it out of love for the One who saved me. "If you love me keep my commandments."John 14:15

I believe that many destructive beliefs go along with the immortal soul doctrine (remember God said He alone is immortal at this point, and in another place said we will "put on" immortality at the second coming...) The occult, speaking with the dead, the belief that my or anybody's mother is somewhere where they can watch their children and grandchildren make grave mistakes. To understand it the Bible way, that the dead "will not precede those who are alive at His coming" makes much better sense in that my mother will rest in her tomb until the trumpet sounds and we can go to heaven together.

I will respectfully withdraw from this thread. I believe I have tried honestly to convey what the Bible says and no doubt others feel they have made their case for an immortal soul. One thing I do know, if we listen for the promptings of the Holy Spirit and ask Him for guidance when we read His word, we will be centered in His will. That is my prayer for myself and each one reading this thread.

Blessings,
Galen

Galen,

It's been a pleasure discussing things with you.

You should also be happy to know I did my homework and checked out your user name. My question now is, is it in reference to your land, or your diet, or your own personality!

Hello Galen,

>>>You should also be happy to know I did my homework and checked out your user name. My question now is, is it in reference to your land, or your diet, or your own personality! <<<

If you have found out what "agrois" means, then you have done more research than me.

Here is the story behind the word "agrois".....

When I lived in Israel (1975), I worked 4 hours a day in a large carpenter's shop for a while. They made wooden ladders there. There were both Arab and Israeli workers there and I got along fine with everyone. One day a couple of Arabs wanted me to say the word "agrois," and then when I did, they would laugh. So, I shouted out real loud "AGROIS, AGROIS" a couple of times and everyone started laughing when I did. I asked people what it meant but NOBODY would tell me!!! It's not a Hebrew word (unless it's some kind of slang not found in a dictionary). Maybe it's an Arabic word or slang, who knows? I definitely don't know! Anyway, that's the story behind "agrois."

* I recently asked an Arabic speaking Arab (from Sudan) who works at the same company that I do if he knew what the word meant, and he didn't, so it's probably just some kind of slang known to the locals where I was.

Correct pronunciation: aGROIS (make sure that you roll the "R" with your tongue, like they do in Spanish).

It is a Greek word meaning "wild." It is used in the Bible to describe John's diet of "wild honey."

It is an agriculturally based word and can be used to describe wild animals or wild land etc. That's why I asked which way you were using the word. It could mean you are wild, or that you live on wild land, or that you eat wild foods.

It is possible that in your experience with the word, those guys were referring to you as a "wild farmer."

Hello Galen,

>>>You should also be happy to know I did my homework and checked out your user name.<<<

>>>It is a Greek word meaning "wild." It is used in the Bible to describe John's diet of "wild honey."<<<

How r u doing 2day?

I hope fine.

Well, I've got good news 4 u, and I've got bad news 4 u 2day.

The good news is that I am very pleased 2 c that u r at least making an attempt 2 do your homework.

The bad news is that u got the WRONG answer!

According 2 my research, the Greek word 4 "wild" (as n "wild" honey) is agrios, not agrois.

Have a nice day, my child.

According 2 my research, the Greek word 4 "wild" (as n "wild" honey) is agrios, not agrois.

I fully deserve to be marked down for my defective homework project! I was searching Strong's Concordance and was excited to find what I found in the Greek lexicon.

I have since searched Babelfish.com, Lingo24.com and a Word Search Tool at Tufts University. Tufts still based it as a derivative of agros which is Greek for fields/lands, an agriculture-based word. It says agrois is a masculine form of agros. Whatsthiscaterpillar.co.uk says it is the caterpillar of the Turnip Moth. Springerlink.com says it is a form of algae: "Agrois olonifera L. *. Filamentous algae"

An Old Testament search turned up Deut. 11:15 with the Hebrew equivalent "Sadeh" meaning field or land. The copy below is from the septuagint text of Deuteronomy 11:15. As you can see, it is spelled correctly here.
"15 kai dwsei xortasmata en tois agrois sou tois kthnesin sou kai fagwn kai emplhsqeis"

Hopefully, I have redeemed myself a bit. I do not want to be labeled a shirker.

>>>Now, I hope you and QWERTY (if you are't actually QWERTY) realize that I haven't pulled the sleep of saints form thin air, but from the word of God. I asked my dear uncle Harry Wenger for material to refute this when I was studying with SDA's 37 years ago, and he couldn't, because it isn't there!

"you" is not QWERTY.

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

I have figured that out. Someone on one of our discussions jumped in and asked if AGROIS is Jerry and he confirmed it. I have read your recent posts with interest as you finally reveal step by step who you really are. Your journey is an interesting one. I hope we can be neighbors on Glory street someday.

Harry Wenger was my cousin; how can he be your Uncle without you being my cousin? Frank Wenger was my Dad's uncle. My Dad was Frank Wenger's nephew by marriage. Dwight D. Eisonhower was my mother's cousin and sometimes I'm my own worst enemy. No kin to Nixon though. hey.

Galen, I betcha you know Lynn Koehn and Boyd Sigafoose from Walnut Hill.

Yes, I know Boyd Sigafoose. My mother was Alice, the oldest of the Wenger girls. In my younger days we spent much of our winters with Uncle Sam and Aunt Josephine Jantz from Walnut Hill. We rented their winter get-away house in Sarasota winters and they would join us for weeks at a time.

My dad and Aunt JO are both in the Manor at Moundridge now.

It's like we're all cousins. Scott's my cousin.

I'm trying to get my Dad out of the manor; it's costing him 8000/00 a month or some such figure. He says that he must die in a year and a half because he will then run out of the green stuff.

Moundrige is getting the green, I can tell you that.

Yeah, my dad's been in there long enough that his nest egg is gone and he's now on Medicare. He is bummed because he wanted to leave something to his boys, but it's all gone.

So is your name sigafoose?

Galen;

No it's not but I can tell you what Sigafoose means in German; it means goat-foot. Boyd the goat-foot is my first cousin on my Mother's side. Boyd's mother Ruth was my Mother's sister. Ed, Roger, and Arlo Johnson are my first cousins.

Do you have an older brother named Keith from Monte or was that a Koehn with a Wenger mother?

I am not related to the Wengers per-say. Harry's mother was a Dyck who to make that possible was Frank's first wife. Johny and Mary Ann Wenger were big buddies of mine back when. You know I still miss them. My name is Dyck. Greg Dyck is a double first cousin of mine.

Do you remember the Siesta beaches of Sarasota? We lived there for two years.

Dad says another year and a half and he will be on the government.

Galen,

>>>Hopefully, I have redeemed myself a bit. I do not want to be labeled a shirker.<<<

You did fine.

I'll give you a B+.