There has been alot written here about Hell lately including a couple comments from myself. I note that God destroyed the the human race with the exception of a few souls in the flood. For those that are very strong that God would not send anyone to hell as He is too loving, how do you look at this side of God. I note also that God said He not destroy the world by a flood again. I'm not trying to open a discussion on the exact way the flood came about and why, but rather does God still have this attribute to judge or has He changed.
Unlike the everlasting-torment-in-hell theory, I've never heard it promoted that those who died in the flood will be wallowing in the flood waters throughout eternity.
Some will be sure to ask; is there a difference between a judgment by drowning or a judgement by fire? Which nature are we addressing here? Drowning is likely the least painful way to die there is, a breath of water is drawn in and we black out. The fear of drowning as the water rises has some torment I am sure. On the other hand to die by fire can be very painful. Is there not a different nature involved here whereby these judgements come?
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Oct 19, 2008 6:33 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Oct 19, 2008 4:49 PM
yes, God will deal with sin. Physical death is not the same thing as an eternal torment. God will restore his entire creation someday. It would be in the best interest of everyone to make the first resurrection!
By the way, what is "eternal death"? By it's very definition, death is something that has an end. You die, you're gone. How can death go on forever and ever, in other words, how can you be alive while enduring eternal death?
<<< For those that are very strong that God would not send anyone to hell as He is too loving>>>
This is a straw man argument. If you wish to have a profitable discussion, then first go back and accurately state the position of the side that you wish to refute.
mutterlode:
>>>By the way, what is "eternal death"?
Death means separation. Eternal death or the 2nd death is eternal separation from God.
In the Bible, we find 4 types of death. Physical death is when the spirit is separated from the body (Jam 2:26); Eternal death with is called the second death (Rev 2:11, 20:6, 14, 21:8) which is separation from God forever; Spiritual death is when people are spiritually separated from God - which is called dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1); and dead to sin (Rom 6:2) which is separation from sin and happens when we are saved (Eph 2:5, 6).
"This is a straw man argument. If you wish to have a profitable discussion, then first go back and accurately state the position of the side that you wish to refute."
wasn't trying to start an argument. Just trying to understand God.
<<< For those that are very strong that God would not send anyone to hell as He is too loving,>>>
This comment "send anyone to hell" is what you need to define. Some believe that hell is correction/restoration which is my view, and is the only view that has any real justice in it. Other believe that hell is eternal torture.
Some believe that whatever God does, it is rendered justice due to God's unlimited authority. In other words, if we did it in a civil court, it would an atrocity, but if God does it, it becomes justice just because of His authority. These expect less of God because of His authority.
I take the opposite position. In my mind, I would expect more justice, not less, due to God's position. You really need to think these positions through in you mind before you even know how to ask the question properly.
"Send to Hell" means send to hell literally. I take you don't think God would do that. I'm understanding others on this forum agree. I've been thinking about this.
As you can note from my thoughts on your thread, Scott, I've been leaning toward "if you go there it's because you did nothing to prevent it and you were forwarned." Man chose to sin in the Garden of Eden and default consequence is hell. Hell was in place at this time already as a punishment for Saten and Man became a participant when he chose to do what saten suggested. The whole salvation plan is the remedy.
Now I'm hearing some of you to suggest that God would not do such a thing and am wondering what God is really like. As I pointed out, God is capable of destroying His creation. He also encouraged ethnic cleansing as some folks could call it. He said it was to punish the nations. No country gets away with it today without outrage.
Look at all the times in the Bible that God punished people severely when they committed something other than his will. Or the old law and the rigid punishments in there. What makes us think God has changed? Do we think he has grown soft or what? I believe he is a God of love but also a God that puts up with no nonsense like we enjoy lulling ourselves into believing. Somewhere along the line we have lined God up with our way of life and what we want to do and God still has the same exact views on what he calls sin as he did thousands of years ago. I think it is too easy for us to bring him right down to our puny, human way of thinking and his ways are so far and above past what we can comprehend. We love him for being our friend but we also need to have a respectful fear of his judgements.
Scott cannot grasp that God is transcendent to man; his view of God's greatness, love, authority, sovereignty etc, is only at the the level that man can understand. Truth is, God and His character is beyond human comprehension, and is so far above man that you cannot make comparisons of God with man.
Till Scott recognizes God for WHo He is, he will continue to bring God down to a human level.
Romans 11:33, Amplified Bible: "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unfathomable (inscrutable, unsearchable) are His judgments (His decisions)! And how untraceable (mysterious, undiscoverable) are His ways (His methods, His paths)!"
God and His way are indeed far above our ways and yet He will not deceive us. In knowing God I have found Him to be fully redemptive and refining! In whom there is no vairablness nor shadow of turning, this is our God. These are things we know about God by experience! Writers of our Bible experienced God, they were not coming from left field somewhere by some other-worldly or etheral information. They wrote of things they saw, heard, or experienced. Jesus said that He did nothing until He first saw the Father doing it or first heard the Father saying it.
Then there are things that we believe, and this is a problem in thinking we know more than we actually know. Academics puff us up. Academics are fine but there is something far greater and that is he in us! The areas of knowing more than we actually know are ambigious in nature and it's in these areas where much emotion, even unstable emotion is spent. Dogmatism is often founded by emotion rather than in what can be clearly experienced!
I have experienced some fire, I have experienced some hell and it has all been refining, corrective, and redemptive. I believe in hell fire, it's God's secondary measure while His primary measure is Grace and Mercy! He loves us and will never leave us nor forsake us. If I go to hell He is there with me, David once said. David embraced the judgements of God and traveled forward because of this.
By comprehension of the height, width, length, and breath and knowing the love of God we are filled with His fullness, it says. Couple that with the fact that while God's ways cannot be understood by the mortal mind, the immortal part of us can comprehend Him! He is actually in us! hHe can lead us into all Truth! It is not known what is prepared for those who Love Him but to us it has been revealed, it says.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Oct 21, 2008 10:36 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Oct 21, 2008 8:59 AM
<<< God and His character is beyond human comprehension, and is so far above man that you cannot make comparisons of God with man. >>>>
Why did Jesus come in the flesh and reveal His humanity to us?
"Scott cannot grasp that God is transcendent to man....God and His character is beyond human comprehension"
We are called to be perfect as He is perfect. To love Him with all our heart, soul, and mind. Please inform us Hank, how to emulate and be intimate with that which is utterly incomprehensible? If I was made in God's image, and received my sense of justice from God, then wouldn't God's justice satisfy my need for justice? How do you evangelize an intelligent man towards this enternally torturing God when you have to inform him, uh, er, This God I'm about to tell you about will appear to really suck, but trust me, you will have to become one of us to appreciate us, and then and only then, what appears to be a travesty of justice will suddenly become justice by virtue of this "God's" incomprehensibility. LOL!
"Till Scott recognizes God for WHo He is, he will continue to bring God down to a human level."
uh.....Hank, what was Jesus all about? LOL!
Hank, you resort to the indistinct stratosphere of the "incomprehensible" to browbeat me into accepting God's injustice. God is not unjust, but your defiled opinion of Him IS! The bible does NOT say what you think it does.
Who is God but the one who comes down to man, revealing Himself to man?
I am not Hank but by my own experience I affirm that without comprehension we shall never intimately know God. To know Him by way of knowing the Son is Eternal Life!
By coming down to our level and finding Himself in human flesh we comprehend that Jesus indeed loves us, we comprehend that He died that we may have Life and have that more abundantly, we comprehend that He forgave us for our mean-estate, we comprehend that he had mercy upon us! So we know Him in part we say, and we love what we see!
We will only know Him in any fullness as He continues to come down to our level and reveal Himself to us! God comes down to us. He has to come down to our level or the journey is over for us! Just maybe that's the issue those face who put the Kingdom of Heaven off into the future somewhere. Nothing tends to end the journey like that one.
We cannot ascend to where He's at until He first comes down to our level, this occurs by the revelation of Him! He works with what He's got. We have a certain condition and God works with that! A revelation of the 12th. century for example will not perform what He desires to perform.
"When we see Him we shall be like Him!" He comes by the revelation of Himself, He rides in on pure white power with the revealed Word of God written upon Him!
The Holy Ghost is sent to reveal Jesus to us in these the latter rains of His Spirit, much as in the early rains of His Spirit! The latter house will be greater than was the former house.
Jesus said, when you've seen me you've seen the Father!
The Holy Ghost is given to reveal the Son and speak things concerning the Son! This same Holy Ghost leads men into all Truth! True Faith is a seeing and living Faith! Blind faith is a dead faith.
"For we look not upon things that can be seen but upon those things that cannot be seen, for the things that can be seen are temporal but the things that cannot be seen are eternal. Clearly seeing the eternal causes us to come into the image that we're seeing. It's by seeing and not by our efforts of righteousness that we become like Him! We see Him with the eyes of our Spiritual [comprender]...
Without comprehension we shall never know Him in any fullness! He is fully redemptive, He is fully refining, and He is fully glorifying. Indeed He is much more than this! He wins by bringing all things back to Himself!
To the Ephesians; by Christ Jesus, the Father has chosen to bring all things back to Himself! consider Eph. 1:8,9,10 and 11. He will restore all things to Himself because it is simply His nature to do so.
Until God comes down to our level, He remains in some hazy etheral realm where He cannot be comprehended. Natural man cannot comprehend Him. Even Spiritual men in the early rains of His Spirit saw as through a glass darkly. The latter house will be greater! We shall see Him face to face and that by revelation! This is the hour! edited for clarity
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Oct 21, 2008 12:43 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Oct 21, 2008 12:39 PM
There will be a hell. God will send none there.
However there will be many who would not accept God's Grace, those will be going there by there own choice.
God would that none would perish. But in order to escape punishment we must accept salvation
Herman
Mutther said "By the way, what is "eternal death"? By it's very definition, death is something that has an end. You die, you're gone. How can death go on forever and ever, in other words, how can you be alive while enduring eternal death?
As I stated in a couple other threads, if death isn't the end of sin and sinners, which WILL be accomplished by unquenchable fire just like Sodom was, then we will have to rewrite a couple of scriptures we all know by heart.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him shall not have everlasting life in hell,but have everlasting life in heaven.
For the wages of sin is eternal life in hell, but the gift of God is eternal life in heaven.
<<< There will be a hell. God will send none there. However there will be many who would not accept God's Grace, those will be going there by there own choice. God would that none would perish. But in order to escape punishment we must accept salvation >>>
Hitler didn't send anyone to the camps. It was the inability of the poor bastards to meet the requirements that sent them to their torments. It was not Hitler's fault. He merely sat back with his arms folded and administered the necessary consequences, albeit sadly I'm sure. It was Hitler's will that all would have met the conditions, because the Germans were wanting more good men.
Not one person on this forum has EVER explained rationally the unbelievable injustice of allowing a baby to be born into the most horrible of conditions, and then giving this individual 70 years to overcome all the frailties of the human condition, and pin the next 50 trillion years of their destinky on this miserable 70 years on earth. You bring endless emotional arguments, but not one single rational argument to deal with this injustice.
<<< those will be going there by there own choice.>>>
Interesting assessment of a creature which is known overwhelmingly to look out for its own self-interest. Why, rationally, would a creature deliberately choose eons of time in eternal torment. This is too absurd for words. I smell a rat!
<<< those will be going there by there own choice.>>>
I am fascinated by this comment. Herman unwittingly just invalidated the entire premise of good child-rearing. What Herman is saying is that an individual is expected to make proper choices regardless of its nuture, upbringing, or environment. If a parent abuses a child, we basically expect the child to make improper choices, sad but true. If God allows a child to be raped, abused, mistreated, etc, we expect this individual to make proper choices with no consideration to the environment in which it suffered. Interesting!
Scott, there was a time in my life that I was pretty well convinced that there was no hell for some of the same reasons you mention. How could a loving God send anyone to eternal torment? To the human mind it does not compute. However, I couldn't reconcile it with the scripture and eventually concluded that God is Almighty, he made the rules and we play by them or suffer the consequences. I'm not sure our idea of justice is the same as God's. Why does God allow so much suffering in this world? Totally innocent children suffer unimaginable pains....every day! My idea of justice does not permit these innocent to suffer. If hell is much worse than even we can comprehend and God himself created evil, which I believe, then how is an eternity of suffering justified for even Lucifer? Again, it doesn't compute. I do believe that He will serve justice to every living thing eventually. It is unavoidable, since whatever He does is justice. I've concluded that it is impossible for humans to understand the mind of God. And somehow that is justified also...ok...I'm spinning in circles here.
No RM, you are not going in circles. You are going in a stright-line to a dead end. You have reached your conclusions by virtue of mental resignation rather than insight or revelation. This is invalid. In other words, in lieu of a more satisfactory answer, you re-accept what is old, familiar and comfortable. To put it mildly, this type of testimony does not compel or convince, nor should it.
Right Scott, I do come to a dead end, but the way I can live with it is because I believe that God is just and the human mind cannot comprehend the mind of God. It's up to God to do what He wants to. I'm just a schmuck.
I'm humble? lol...haven't heard that in a while! Cmon, you know I'm an arrogant-right-winger-clinging-to-God-and-guns!
I've got to run for supper here...but in a nutshell what I believe is either the Bible is not the word of God or it is impossible for humans to understand the ways of God. I choose the latter. We cannot call God unjust under any circumstances since He is the definition of justice.
Well, I just finished SUPPER and I had DINNER at 12. I suppose now you're sitting in front of the SCREEN watching SOAPS holding your teacup daintily with your little finger extended and an after DINNER mint in front of you to freshen your citified breath.
<<< but in a nutshell what I believe is either the Bible is not the word of God or it is impossible for humans to understand the ways of God.>>>
RM, so either the bible is not true, or it is impossible to understand it. Do you realize what you just said? Not a very good recommendation for its veracity.
My answer, Doug & Scott, is that yes, I believe I know Jesus Christ as Savour and Lord and I trust that He vouches for me before God. I also know that God is just, fair, equitable, all knowing, all righteous, with perfect love and mercy... all this to the extent that is beyond what I am able to humanly comprehend or contain. His Being is on different plane then humanity, but we know enough of Him to be responsible to Him. And, as you say, it is Jesus Christ, the living Word, that has revealed this to us.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
I believe the Bible to be true and that it shows us the path to eternal life, but I don't say that the Bible will show us the mind of God....it doesn't claim to either. We get glimpses of Him through the Bible, yet not the full picture.
In the beginning, God said to Adam "if you eat this fruit you shall surely die." (notice God didn't say "you'll still have eternal life, but you will spend it in hell") Then Satan came along and told Eve "you shall NOT surely die. This big lie has been perpetuated ever since by folks to get them afraid of God and many have said they want nothing to do with a God who would torment people forever without end.
The reason for the destruction of the wicked is so that "sin will not rise up a second time." (notice the Bible calls it destruction, not some term that connotes endlessness) As I have stated in other threads, I DO believe in the eternal effects of punishment, but not eternal in terms of the fire that does the work.
As Scott has said, how do you reconcile punishing a child with bad parents getting eternal torment right along with the Charles Mansons of the world.(i put some extra words in his mouth here...) While the fire will surely "torment" the wicked, and I do believe in degrees of hell, God's desire is to DESTROY SIN and sinners, so that this mess will not be repeated in the earth made new "wherin dwells righteousness."
RM, you are right, life is not fair, but God is just and because of Jesus, we will not have to experience the fires of hell if we commit our lives to Him. His blood covers our sins and we are righteous in God's eyes as he looks at us covered with the robe Jesus supplies. I serve him because I love Him, not out of fear of eternally burning somewhere. That would amount to "fire insurance," not love for my Redeemer.
Is hell a correction or is hell a punishment or is it both?
My God is a consuming fire, it says. It says also that He is as a refiners fire and as a fullers soap. Fire and soap are both corrective and cleansing. In weld-shops we used to wash the slag off the metal that was be preserved, and we did it with fire. Soap was a punishment in some anabaptist homes; if you all will remember the mouth washes after a lie or a bad word spoken.
Where did the belief come from that there is an eternal fire other than God himself being the fire? ponder it.
The full nature of God in his love and holiness is within the confines of the fire that He is! His nature of holiness and love fuels His fire! Indeed His fire is eternal!
Now then, there are three meanings for the word [hell] used in the scriptures. The grave, the city dump that burns perpetually on the outskirts of Jerusalem because men are constantly feeding it, and the deepest hell which was created not for man but for the devil and his angels. The dragon and the beast is cast into the bottomless pit. The beast portion of ourselves will never enter into God's domain. Whow, how do we get through this maze?
At present we do not understand it all but scholarly study clears up a whole lot of it. Gehenna i.e. hell is the dump for the city and it is mankind who feeds this fire. This fire goes out when mankind ceases to feed it. The tongue must be cooled with water for that is where words are formulated and spoken. Send Lazarus with water for the tip of my tongue must be cooled the rich man said in Gehenna after lifting up his eyes. The water is the Spirit!
The tongue is set on the fire of hell or Gehenna, so said the paster of the Jerusalem Church, James. The worm continues to live but there is no metamorphosis while in Gehenna. The tongue is an unruly evil which God's Spirit alone can bridle! These early Church men understood this thing. They did not go about talking trash in their daily lives! To them the renewal of the mind was a real and viable thing. They walked in the Spirit! Let all who have the Spirit be sure to walk in the Spirit, the Apostle Paul says!
Our conversation can of heavenly and good quality. Even every idle word will be brought into account, Jesus said. Our hearts and then our words is what creates the hell for mankind. It is known that the mouth speaks from the abundance of the heart. It is known that the issues of our lives procede from our hearts. The Gehenna-hell is a hell of our own making. It's an age to endure. Send water. Send Spirit. Though [I make] by bed in hell, God is there with me said David. It's much better to come by Grace through Faith, we can miss this hell! We can be regenterated and renewed of mind. There are many stripes to the very guilty and less to the less guilty. The Holy Spirit baptism cleans up our language rather spontaneously!
The grave which is also a certain hell is an age to endure.
The deeper hell was not created for man but for the devil and his angels This hell may well trap lucifer and his angels perpetually. This hell will certainly trap their evil. God is the judge of these matters.
This is by no means an exhaustive study.
edited for clarity
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Oct 22, 2008 1:15 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Oct 22, 2008 11:02 AM
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