Here is Obama's tax plan from the wall street journal

<http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122455021772252457.html#printMode>;

Listen to this song if you can. It is just a new release and is really neat.


<http://kevinspencerandfriends.com/ksf-new-release-god-bless-america-again/>;

Barack Hussein Obama has never been a middle-class American trying to make ends meet. He hasn't actually even held a job ever has he?? He does not understand what an increased tax burden will do. Many small-business owners such as myself will either close up or figure out creative ways to begin cheating the government. Neither is a good answer.

Beautiful song!

<<He does not understand what an increased tax burden will do.>> He sure doesn't....the USA already has the 2nd highest corp tax rate in the world and we are wondering why so much industry has already left the country? This is like trying to put a fire out with gasoline.

April, no one likes to pay higher taxes. But hopefully if you are making over a 250,000 yearly profit in your small business, things might not be too bad. I am not a small business owner, so I may not be qualified to comment. It just seems that if your business is turning a profit of over 250K after expenses and your own wages have been drawn, you should be able to pay a slightly higher tax rate, such as that paid before the Bush tax cuts. If I'm not seeing the picture correctly, I would welcome correction.

I just read the Wall Street article. To be fair, the article says nothing about the proposed tax cuts the 10 to 19 employees of these small businesses will receive under Obama’s current plan. So while 19.4% of employers who employ 10 to 19 employers will have their taxes raised, 100% of the employees of these small businesses will have their taxes lowered. This should take some of the pressure of these businesses to provide living wages.

The article says that 50% of employers who hire 20 to 249 employees would also have their taxes raised. If this is so bad for business, we should see a tremendous outcry from corporate American against Obama’s campaign. But his fund raising has been going like gangbusters, and much of it is coming from corporate America. Are the owners of these successful companies just too stupid to recognize they are going against their self interest, or how do you explain this phenomenon?

And why is the conservative segment of the country so concerned about the extremely wealthy having their tax cuts eliminated, while 99% of them are having their own taxes lowered? I really have to wonder about the sincerity of people who claim this is unfair. It seems to me it would be more noble to worry about poor children getting the proper heath care and education, than worry the rich may not be able to afford that luxury Caribbean cruise.

I wonder if taxes are just a smoke screen, and the real reasons they don’t want this man in office lie elsewhere. The goal seems to convince enough people that voting for Obama is against their economic interest. In other words, the ends justify the means.

Taxes are a fact of life.
Why bitch about them?

And I don’t get all Obama hate on this site.
I am a Canadian but watch CNN every night,
And all I see and here from Obama sounds good to me.

Am I missing some thing?

Stan, you said: "It just seems that if your business is turning a profit of over 250K after expenses and your own wages have been drawn, you should be able to pay a slightly higher tax rate"
This is exactly the liberal/socialist attitude I have a huge problem with! Why should I get penalized ("taxed") because I work hard and have used my ingenuity to build a profitable business? So my piece of the pie, if you will gets cut smaller so the person down the road who does not have the same drive and ingenuity that I have gets to profit from my success.
In turn I realize that if I do not work quite so hard, I can keep more of my money and if I lay off a few employees then I don't have to pay quite so much of my hard-earned money to the person who doesn't work so hard. Where exactly does that leave the economy?
I work hard for my piece of the pie and I want every piece that I work for. Otherwise where is the drive?

Jeff, in general Americans hate taxes (even though we trend to keep an open hand towards Washington D.C. in case some "free" money comes our way), most Americans consider themselves "conservative" no matter which party they actually back. To most Americans "Liberals" live in New York and San Francisco, both places that many Americans would like to see slide into the sea (or be destroyed like Sodom). It doesn't surprise me that you find Obama attractive, from what I've read in your postings you appear to be a classic liberal who would fit well into the crappy culture that exists on either of our coasts.

<<....but watch CNN every night,
And all I see and here from Obama sounds good to me.>>

What??? CNN portrays Obama in a good light???....well...who'da thunk it! Try CBS, NBC, PMSNBC, ABC....actually pretty well any of the drive-by news networks with the exception of Fox News and you'll find they are all in the bag for Obama. Welcome to the world of "journalism".

Stan, how will Obama cut the taxes of 99% of Americans when 40% of them don't pay to begin with?

Ya I probably am a Liberal in your eyes.
Although I have never voted Liberal.
Most of my views would be considered Liberal.

And I don’t like paying taxes any more then the rest of you.
But I believe in government programs,
Such as free heath care for all, good roads, welfare for those
who need it, free day care for all working parents,
and good schools and universities free or subsidized at least.

My point is that our Republican President, whom I assume most of you conservatives voted for, has run up the debt in this country to an unprecedented amount. So what are we going to do? Taxing the higher incomes in a higher bracket has been something we have always taken for granted. Bush has given those very rich an extra tax break in the hopes that their extra spending will trickle down to the rest of us. I just don’t think this is a system which has worked, and we need to go back to more traditional ways of taxing.

If you are clearing over 250K per year, you can argue it is not fair to pay a higher percentage than what you have been paying under the Bush tax cut. But the bottom line is that someone has to pay the taxes, and most middle class families are hurting right now.

I think it a safe bet that most conservatives who read this forum make less than 250k a year and will actually see their taxes lowered under an Obama plan. This is why I am a little surprised there is so much opposition to Obama’s tax proposals.

Stan, all Bush did was to lessen the redistribution of wealth. By pulling the upper tax rates down closer to those that middle class Americans pay he created a fairer system. He lowered taxes because he understood it would spur economic growth. The debt that Bush incurred was a spending problem, not a tax cut problem. Tax cuts actually increase revenue to Washington. Tax increases do the opposite. I would like to see a Pres. that would cut taxes to the point that total revenues would finally flat line. I don't know where that point would be, but it is waaaaay below the tax rates that we are now paying. By the time we got to that point the prosperity of Americans (including the poor) would be unbelievable! Most of the people that would stand to lose would be those in government that are using class-warfare as a means of getting re-elected. This would be a win win for America.

In an economic crisis like we are experiencing, the LAST thing you want to do is increase taxes anywhere. This would have disastrous consequences! And why shouldn't Americans be infuriated that the possible future POTUS actually said that he wants to "spread the wealth around." This is just plain wrong. It's hard to believe that Obama actually said that on tape. There is no logical reason that government takes money from one class of taxpayers and distributes it to non-taxpayers. Obama intends to write these folks a check every year. This is Marxism. He is basically buying their votes in my opinion.

Again, I'd like to hear you explain how Obama will cut the taxes of 99% of Americans while 40% don't pay any.

The thing I like about oboma's plan is how he is going to get health insurance on all working Americans.

any employer with employess will be required to have health insurance on his employees! Oh that will be nice!

$7 per hour minimum wage cost about 10 per hour
plus $600 per month health insurance equals

Fire everybody! That plan will be so great on the poor working class, never mind that can't get a job because their cost of employment just jumped 60%! But if they do, they will be covered for health care!

(seething in Idaho)

RM, my mistake. You are correct, you can’t lower taxes on those who don’t pay. If your 40% number is correct, I will change my 99% to 59%.

So are you for a flat tax where everyone pays the same rate? Do you think lowering taxes will create enough prosperity for everyone (who is willing to work) so that the revenue to the government remains the same or increases? This is basically supply side economics, or trickle down. I have heard from fairly reliable sources that this has been a failed policy, and there are hard statistics to prove it, but I don’t have enough info to argue it.

You guys could be right, I don’t know. I guess if Obama gets in office, we will wait and see how it goes. I just remember in 92 how the right was demonizing Clinton, and planting a lot of fear about what his higher taxes would do to the economy.

Fred

do people realy work for $7/hr there?
if they do send them here ill hire them all

Jeff there are lots of minimum pay not much training required jobs here, and yes the health care aspect in an obama-nation, will ruin our local system, forcing low pay people out of work because if health care is required the jobs will go oversees.

Stan - CNN's fact check indicates that of the percentage of people who pay income taxes, 95% of them will see a reduction in taxes. This excludes the percentage of people who do not already pay taxes.

April said:

<<Stan, you said: "It just seems that if your business is turning a profit of over 250K after expenses and your own wages have been drawn, you should be able to pay a slightly higher tax rate"
This is exactly the liberal/socialist attitude I have a huge problem with! Why should I get penalized ("taxed") because I work hard and have used my ingenuity to build a profitable business? So my piece of the pie, if you will gets cut smaller so the person down the road who does not have the same drive and ingenuity that I have gets to profit from my success.
In turn I realize that if I do not work quite so hard, I can keep more of my money and if I lay off a few employees then I don't have to pay quite so much of my hard-earned money to the person who doesn't work so hard. Where exactly does that leave the economy?
I work hard for my piece of the pie and I want every piece that I work for. Otherwise where is the drive?>>

Because the general social conscience of Canada is different from that of the USA, can you explain your position a bit more?

The reality of life is that many people in the US are stuck in cycles of poverty or with a lack of education or access to quality education that allows them to advance in life. I know that the stock answer is that you work hard and take responsibility for your own life.

I consider myself financially successful, but that is largely due to social assistance in the form of a federal subsidized student loan when I had a skill set that allowed me to work only in minimum wage jobs where I could not afford an education.

Part of building a strong country is a healthy, educated citizenry. The strongest pushes in developing countries are education and health initiatives because these move countries forward.

You've made it pretty clear that your drive and ingenuity entitles you to keep what you earn for yourself. I understand that sentiment as I also have worked hard to get where I'm at and don't like paying more taxes. However, what responsibility do we have or what proposals are there for people stuck in minimum wage jobs without access to education or healthcare? Is it their lot in life to accept what they have and work hard in the hopes that one day it will pay off, or do we as the wealthier in our respective countries have a social responsibility to share proportionately more of our wealth for social programs that properly administered will make our countries strong?

Thanks for the info, Psytrancer. I was just going by the Washington Post article that was posted by GM on the “Spread the Wealth” thread. It may be 5% instead of 1%, as CNN suggests.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

<<Part of building a strong country is a healthy, educated citizenry. The strongest pushes in developing countries are education and health initiatives because these move countries forward.>>

I agree. It is so important to do the things that look to the future. Improve education and health, and you will see future improvements in peoples lives and a stronger country because of it.