I don't wish to belabor this point, but I am trying to reconcile with Qwerty's belief of "sinless ness". He today, used some strong language to condemn my stand; but as he has said in the past he does not call me a liar, only that which I stand for is a lie. I accept and respect that comment.

The thread where this occurred today "The OTVC Teaching" has gone off the subject, just as the thread of "What I believe" did. So here, without malice I feel to reply to Qwerty. I realize this point is very important to him, and I wish to leave him with his belief. I will however, from time to time when he belabors this point, continue to present a different view from his.

Here is what I said Oct 8th, "What I believe".

3) I believe that original inherited sin is present in all believers, and will be so till we receive new bodies at the resurrection. Such sin rises to the surface in all, including those who believe, and this must be acknowledged, repented of and God through Christ erases the penalty for sin. "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life." A believer will strive to live a life patterned after Christ, but the perfect righteous character and standard of God is above any level that a believer can achieve to. It is Christ that stands as our Intercessor and Advocate, and He bridges the gap of sin between God and those who believe.

My view is that Qwerty misses the difference between God and man (even though he says he does not). God is perfect and man is sinful. Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden because of sin, but they were "forgiven". This mark of sin has left its stain on all mankind, and will remain so till the end of the age. The promise of a Redeemer in Genesis was realized in Christ, and all who look to Christ receive of this grace. Man is still "fallen man", and the prime essence of repentance is firstly "change of mind" about how one's relationship is restored with God. This faith causes change in mans behavior and brings believers to follow after the example of Christ.

My belief of "sin and sinless ness" is only as far as taught by Menno Simons and Dirk Philips. These early Mennonites warned against man's high opinion of themselves, and urged believers to continue to realize their own sinful make-up; to look to Christ only as their redemption. They also clearly taught that a life of sin was unacceptable for believers, and to openly live in sin and yet confess Christ, was a sham. Their position was that sin is not imputed to a believer (the simple short explanation), and this too has its limits. But, overall, they maintained a theological base, that man is sinful vs. the righteous character of God.

We all look at prior teachers to influence our understanding of scripture; Qwerty looks to Wesley, Warner and others; and on this subject I look to Menno Simons and Dirk Philips. It is possible that the net result of a believers life is the same from these teachers; but each come at the understanding from a different theological base. D.S. Warner, a contemporary of John Holdeman came to teach what Qwerty and COGR believes, and Warner was relieved of his preaching charge by "COG, Winebrenner" as a result (may have the official name incorrect). Warner then formed and led his own separate sect.

I accept that Qwerty continues in the tradition of belief of some theologians of years ago, even though their biblical base is incorrect in my view. My first personal response this AM was to take exception to Qwerty's continual charges hinting that I live in a life if sin. However, I believe that as believers we will face intolerance of others and we must not allow accusations to affect our faith. Qwerty, I invite you FULLY face your human fallen state, and glory in the redemption we have in Jesus Christ.

Qwerty wrote: "...That lie is that you don't have to be obedience God understands. I against (again ?) Hank reprove you for up holding this blasphemous God-dishonoring teaching. If you don't have victory over sin please don't bring the God's Word down to your sinning level."

Menno Simons wrote: "Death is but to cease from sinning." (and other clear similar interpretation of scripture.)

John 1:8-9; Amplified Bible; "8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].

9If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]."

Hank:
Thank you for your post. I think a number of times I have offered my view of what the scriptures teaching and I don't feel the need to labor the point over again. Below you will find a number of my posts from my blog that deal clear with this issue. Become the posts are long I will be putting them on different posts.

True Conversation

True Conversion – to become Christ like, you first must be truly converted. If you’re living in willful disobedience to God (Eph 5:6), you are still in the kingdom of darkness and need to be translated into God's kingdom (Col 1:13). There is no place for disobedience (Joh 14:24; 1Joh 2:3-4) in the believer’s experience at all.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
1Jn 2:3, 4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

By God's unmerited favor (grace) toward mankind, he has promised to draw every person to Christ (Joh 6:44, Joh 1:9, Tit 2:11, 12). This may happen through your reading of the Bible, through listening to someone's testimony of how they found God, through attending a church meeting, through a dream, through God speaking directly to your heart, or through reading a track or booklet on how to find God.

As God draws you to Christ, by awakening your conscience, you will feel convicted of your sins and reproved for your sinning (Joh 8:9, 16:8). As you consider what your awakened conscience is telling you, you will either defend your sins and make excuses for yourself, or you will agree with your conscience and accept the conviction and reprove.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Tit 2:11, 12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

When you agree with your conscience, the grace (unmerrited favor) of God will begin to work a godly sorrow in your heart for the sinfulness of your life (2Cor 7:10). This godly sorrow will work a hatred in your heart for your sins and a desire to be free from them (Rom 7:15).

In this state of conviction and godly sorrow you will find yourself not able to do the good that you would and the evil that you don't want to do, you will find yourself committing (Rom 7:19). This conviction and godly sorrow - brought on by the grace of God - will lead you to a crisis decision where you will either reject God and his dealings, or you will repent (Luk 13:3) and be converted.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Repentance is a complete change in attitude toward your past sinful life and a commitment to completely change and reform your life by the power of God. Your repentance toward God must be with the fruit (Mat 3:8) of a willingness to depart from all sin (2Tim 2:19) and no longer walk in the darkness of sin (Joh 8:12).

When - by grace with godly sorrow and repentance through faith - you believe in your heart (Rom 10:9) on the merits of the death and resurrection of Jesus, and ask God for forgiveness of sins, and believe by faith God has forgiven you (1Joh 1:9; Act 4:12 1Pet 1:9), you are converted and have become a child of God.

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

After conversion, you are then to go in the power of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 10:13; 2Pet 1:10; Jud 1:24) and sin no more (1Joh 5:18).

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

You will need to beware of those that tell you that all you need to do is "<em>just believe</em>" to be saved. While the Bible clearly says if you "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" (Act 6:31), the Bible also says that except you repent you will perish (Luk 13:3); that it is godly sorrow that works repentance (2Cor 7:10); and that you must bring forth fruit of repentance (Mat 3:8).

You need to take all that the New Testament says on salvation - not just one verse. You will also need to beware of those professing Christians that have a form of godliness but deny the power of Christ to deliver from committing sin (2Tim 3:5). They hold that the blood is powerless and can not save you from sinning. You are instructed to turn away from such.

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
2Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Hank:
>>>John 1:8-9; Amplified Bible; "8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].
9If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]."

Here us my classic reply to the way you are using this scripture.

How to be more Christ Like:

Sin-you-must Scriptures Explained – provided here is a brief explanation of a number of scriptures that seem to imply that believers are not delivered from all sinning and that as long as they live they must sin. Rom 7:13-15 – Paul is describing the experience under the law when he was bondage to the law of sin and he did the evil he didn’t want to do. In chapter eight he explains that Christ set him free from the law of sin as the law could not do this. 1Jon 1:8 – Here John is referring to those in verse three that don’t have fellowship with the Father and explains that those who claim they have no sin any other way than having fellowship with the Father and Son are liars. He goes on to clearly state in chapter two, three, and five that whoever is born of God doesn’t sin. 1Tim 1:15 – Paul here is stating that because of his actions as a blasphemer, persecutor, and injurious toward the believers before his conversation, that he felt he was a chief sinner. This clearly was not his current experience, but he was discussing his past experience. 1Kin 8:46; 2Chr 6:36; Pro 20:9; Pro 24:16 – under the Old Covenant the blood of bulls and goats couldn’t deliver from the power of sin. It is only by the merits of the blood of Christ that believers can live a life free from sinning.

I will add here a post on what I consider 3 teachings that you appear to hold to. Sin-You-Must, Sinning Christians, and Easy Believism:

Unbiblical Teachings:

Sin-you-must -- teaches that you will continue to sin after being saved, and that a believer sins in word, thought, and deed daily. This teaching makes people easy prey to temptations and leaves them thinking that sin in a believer's life is normal.

Easy-Believism -- teaches that godly sorrow, repentance, and obedience to Christ are not necessary. Instead, all you must do is believe. This teaching can have people that are only under conviction thinking they are saved.

Sinning Christians -- teaches that a Christian will not experience spiritual death if they commit one sin, and that it takes either practicing sin or 'big' sins like murder or adultery before you are spiritually separated from God, and are no longer a child of God. This teaching takes away the seriousness of what happens when a Christian sins. It also leaves a person thinking they are a Christian when they are not.


And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Here is an article that shows that sin brings separation between the Believer and God:

Commiting Sin Brings Spiritual Death

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. -- Gen 2:17

It is very important for Christians to understand what spiritual death is and what causes it, so that they may know how to avoid it.

This is a time of gross darkness around the world. Almost all denominations and pastors are teaching that it is not possible to live a life of obedience and be free from committing willful acts of disobedience against known laws of God. They teach the people to profess to be sinners saved by grace, and that their life down here on earth is one of sinning and repenting. They say that the best Christians can do is not doing the good that you want to do, and doing the evil that you don't want to do -- the "O wretched man" experience of Romans chapter 7.

Of the few denominations and pastors that do teach that it is possible to live a life of obedience, most leave a back door open for sinning by telling the people that sin doesn't bring spiritual death. They teach that while God is able to deliver you from sinning and keep you, that if you do sin, you are just out of fellowship and need to repent and move on. This is the message that the serpent told Eve, if you sin "Ye shall not surely die" (Gen 3:4).

In the Bible, we find 4 types of death. Physical death is when the spirit is separated from the body (Jam 2:26); Eternal death with is called the second death (Rev 2:11, 20:6, 14, 21:8) which is separation from God forever; Spiritual death is when people are spiritually separated from God - which is called dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1); and dead to sin (Rom 6:2) which is separation from sin and happens when we are saved (Eph 2:5, 6).

In 1 Timothy 5:6, Paul tells us that "she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." This person is alive physically, but those that live a life of pleasure are separated spiritually from God and this is referred to as "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1).

God warned Adam in the garden that "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die " (Gen 2:17). As this sin caused Adam and Eve to be separated from God and to incur guilt, it is fair to say that God meant a spiritual separation or death - not a literal death.

Adam didn't need to eat the fruit over a period of time, and their offense was not murder but simply eating a piece of fruit in disobedience, and God said they would die in the day that they ate.

The Devil is still saying today what he told Eve back thousands of years ago, "Ye shall not surely die" (Gen 3:4). You can sin and still be a Christian. One sin will not separate you from God. Hence, the devil desires to beguile you as he beguiled Eve when she believed his lie.

James gives us the process of falling into sin. "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jam 1:14, 15). When sin is finished (complete entire, consummated) it brings spiritual death.

If you keep the Lord's sayings, you "shall never see death" (Joh 8:51), but if you love not your brother you "abideth in death" (1Joh 3:14).

So the question we want to answer is "can you be abiding in death, be dead in sins and trespasses, and still be a Christian on your way to heaven?" John answers this question for us very clearly. "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1Joh 3:15. Not only do you abide in spiritual death or separation from God, but you don't have "eternal life abiding" in you.

Clearly, the Word of God teaches that sin brings spiritual death or separation from God. Please get this down into the heart. Sin will murder your relationship with God -- it will end it. Sin will open you up to deception. It will destroy whatever faith you have. When you sin, you are deceived by Satan, you are under his control, thus you are his child.

It doesn't take practicing sin or continuing in sin for some unknown period of time. It doesn't take "big" sins like adultery or murder for you to be separated from God. It takes one single act of willful disobedience to a known commandment of God.

Satan comes to "steal, and to kill, and to destroy" (Joh 10:10) your spiritual life. If he tempts you to sin and tells you that "Ye shall not surely die", don't believe him!


And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Thank-you Qwerty, I will not have time till tomorrow morning to read your replies. My first obligation is to read the Bible. But thanks, I do not object to you continuing to make your point. I do however, not accept your comments that I am a person steeped in and living in sin. May God have mercy on us all.

I have posted here and have on my blog a number of articles concerning what the Bible has to say about sin and the Believer. I am not going to post them in in text form but I will provide the links if any have interest.

If you can show me where any where that I am teaching what is not supported by the new covenant scriptures line on line, precept on precept, by two or more witnesses I will quickly change.

I want to post a very clear warning here. When you support willful sin in the believer as acceptable or normal you are standing with Satan and all the demons of hell. You are teaching a false gospel and another Jesus. You are deceived and deceiving souls and no matter how high you professing and what good feelings you have have if you live and die this way you will be lost.

This is no small matter. This is not about where the rapture is before, during or after the tribulation. You can be wrong that and go to heaven.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil those would be accept him. From the first chapter in the new covenant Bible to the last it is holiness unto the Lord. Matthew chapter one tells us that this Jesus will "save his people from their sins" (Mat 1:21) and John closed the cannon with the solemn warning "he which is filthy, let him be filthy still" (Rev 22:11).

Here the Words of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Let us not try to bring the Word of God down to our experience but bring our experience up to the what the Word of God teaches.

Pauls Experience in Romans Chapter 7
Grace Offered For Obedience
Progress From Grace to Sin in 8 Steps
How To Stop Falling Into Sin
Considering Eternal Security & the IF Scriptures
Are Errors, Faults, and Mistakes Sin?
How To Overcome Sin
Instructions For New Christians
God’s Part & Man’s Part in Salvation
God Promises Complete Victory Over All Sin


And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Hank:
>>>I do however, not accept your comments that I am a person steeped in and living in sin.

Please provide the quote where I stated such a thing and I will quickly retract it, sincerely apologize, and edit it out of the post. Clearly I have not said such a thing!

I encourage you to stick with the facts and to not exaggerate or embellish what I say. As we both profess Christ as our Lord and Savior we need to both act like Christians not politicians.

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Frank Sinatra-My Way

And now, the end is near;
And so I face the final curtain.
My friend, Ill say it clear,
Ill state my case, of which Im certain.

Ive lived a life thats full.
Ive traveled each and evry highway;
And more, much more than this,
I did it my way.

Regrets, Ive had a few;
But then again, too few to mention.
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exemption.

I planned each charted course;
Each careful step along the byway,
But more, much more than this,
I did it my way.

Yes, there were times, Im sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew.
But through it all, when there was doubt,
I ate it up and spit it out.
I faced it all and I stood tall;
And did it my way.

Ive loved, Ive laughed and cried.
Ive had my fill; my share of losing.
And now, as tears subside,
I find it all so amusing.

To think I did all that;
And may I say - not in a shy way,
No, oh no not me,
I did it my way.

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught.
To say the things he truly feels;
And not the words of one who kneels.
The record shows I took the blows -
And did it my way!

Qwerty, I did get carried away with my comment and I retract it. I was inclined to read your line as personal, which I still believe is...however you prefaced it with the word if..."If you don't have victory over sin please don't bring the God's Word down to your sinning level. Get on your knees and get a hold of God..."

Qwerty, I'll repeat:

The issue as I see it, is the difference of our views of "sin & sinless ness" is not so much of actual sin, but rather your view of man vs. a righteous Holy God. If you call what I believe as lies, then you also consider two mentors of mine, Menno Simons and Dirk Philips to be liars. In my view whereas Scott's concept of God brings God down to man's level, your position elevates man to a level with God. There is a huge difference between man and God, and your position, (regardless how much you refute it) attempts to move yourself to God's level; and with a judgmental attitude of those who disagree with you.

One characteristic of yours that is typical of sinful man, is that that you take a jump in conclusion, when your position is challenged as the following statement of yesterday:

Qwerty said: "I want to post a very clear warning here. When you support willful sin in the believer as acceptable or normal you are standing with Satan and all the demons of hell. You are teaching a false gospel and another Jesus."

I consider this a false statement because you are clearly suggesting that to be my position, which is false. I do not support willful sin as you say and could say you are lying... but I read it as your opinion, so I do not hold that sin against you.

Fred also made a good observation of your sin as follows; he wrote:

"Simply because you pretend to consent to a doctrine that "quits" sinning, doesn't mean you actually have quit it and arrived, rather it means that if you are true to your conviction, you quit sinning the sins you know about and that don't creep up on you and get you in the back."

Qwerty, I think you need to moderate your views and accusations, or else return to COGR... quickly.

I don't think others have much interest, but when I get home I will give you more information on this subject from MS & DP and from scripture.

Hank:
>>>The issue as I see it, is the difference of our views of "sin & sinless ness" is not so much of actual sin, but rather your view of man vs. a righteous Holy God...There is a huge difference between man and God, and your position, (regardless how much you refute it) attempts to move yourself to God's level; and with a judgmental attitude of those who disagree with you.

For me I hold that God can do anything. If he says he will "make a way of escape" for every temptation (1Cor 10:13) and that he gives us "all things that pertain unto live and godliness" (2Pet 1:3) then I believe that. If he says that the "abundance of grace" which he offers where by we "reign in life" is "much more" than the power of "death reigned by one" then I believe it. When he says that "hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments" and further "he that saith I know him and keepeth not his commandments is a liar" I accept that.

I accepted these scriptures (and many more) when this wasn't my experience. It was hard to do but after looking at both position my faith took a hold and I renounced my life of sinning and repenting and believed the Bible. I now can identify with these scriptures. I have them working in my life. They are a reality for me. I have experienced a great change in my life.

It is my understanding that you choice to accept Romans 7 as the Christian experience. When Paul states "the evil which I would not that I do" you accept that as the best a Christian can do. Further when he states that "I see another law in my members... bringing me into captivity to the law of sin" you agree. When John says "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves" you agree with that. Aside from the Word I understand this to be your testimony. So to some degree I understand why you hold to these scriptures.

Now I have explained many times these two main sin-you-must scripture to you and others on this forum. I have yet to hear you address the many scriptures I have posted for the position I hold.

Could you explain 1 John 2:3, 4 for me and could you explain 1Cor 10:13 for me please?

If Adam and Eve can live sinless I hold it is more than possible for God to clean up man and empower him to live with out willful disobedience.

So let me ask you a question here. If God had decided to do empower man to live free from willful acts of disobedience 1) do you think God could? 2) And if he could do you think than in doing that it would move man up to God's level? 3) Or do you think that God could also empower a man that is saved from committing sin to not be power about some thing he has done nothing to receive?

Now you may not answer these questions so let me answer them for you. Yes God could do it, no it wouldn't be moving man up to God's level, and yes God could give man enough humility to not be proud of being obedience. If God can empower him to live obedient he can empower him to have grace to not be proud in that position.

Here I would hold your position that I bring man up to Gods level falls flat.

Next I think it is rather interesting that God has stated in the Bible that he has done all these things. So the question is why don't you accept what God states? Why take the low road? Why stand up for sin in the believer's life when sitting in front of you is a clear promise to make a way out? These are questions that you shouldn't bypass but I will understand if you do.

Here is the Word of God that will judge you in the last day.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

>>>If you call what I believe as lies, then you also consider two mentors of mine, Menno Simons and Dirk Philips to be liars. In my view whereas Scott's concept of God brings God down to man's level, your position elevates man to a level with God.

I have noted to you before that I feel like there is a clear different between what you teach and hold to and what Menno held. I understand you to hold that a person can be a Christian and still fall into willful sin.

Menno never held that to my understanding. If you denied the Lord in willful sin they would conclude you were not saved. Drunkenness, adultery, fornication, not standing for the truth under torture where all sins that I understand Menno would hold the person that commits them is not saved.

It is my understanding that you would not say a person is non-saved if they when out one night and got drunk, committed adultery, or fornication. Is this correct?

Also I don't consider you, Menno, or Dirk, to be liars. But I consider any one that teachings you can commit willful sin and still be saved "to be teaching a lie". Try to get that clear in your mind and not attribute to me things I have clearly denied.

>>>One characteristic of yours that is typical of sinful man, is that that you take a jump in conclusion, when your position is challenged as the following statement of yesterday:
Qwerty said: "I want to post a very clear warning here. When you support willful sin in the believer as acceptable or normal you are standing with Satan and all the demons of hell. You are teaching a false gospel and another Jesus."

I would agree that as a human I many times jump to conclusions and make incorrect statements. If I have done that I apologize.

I think the word acceptable was wrong to use as I feel that you don't hold that it is acceptable. I am not sure why I used the term. I apologize!

Now as to the word normal let me ask you a question. If you don't think it is possible to live a life free from sin is it not the norm for people to fall into sin? And if that is the case do you think is the norm to fall into just smaller sins like anger, a small lie, lusting in their mind, etc. or would that include bigger sins?

And if God can save us from big sins why can't he save us from little sins? Is it that he can't do it or he wills not to do it? If you answer that God wills not to save from small sins would you tell me why that would be? Is God so weak that he can not give the believer enough grace to be free from pride so that he much leave in man that which he claims to have come to destroy to keep humble?

>>>"Simply because you pretend to consent to a doctrine that "quits" sinning, doesn't mean you actually have quit it and arrived, rather it means that if you are true to your conviction, you quit sinning the sins you know about and that don't creep up on you and get you in the back."

I would agree with the first part of the statement. Just because a person states they don't sin doesn't mean they don't sin. They could be lying or they could be deceived in believing a lie. I disagree with that reasoning of the second half and it is my testimony that I have quite sinning and as I hold that if you don't know something is wrong it is not sin (where there is no law there is no sin). You can reject my testimony if you like based on your own experience and belief system.

>>>Qwerty, I think you need to moderate your views and accusations, or else return to COGR... quickly.

I think you need to retract that statement. It doesn't appear to be given in love as I don't think you really believe I should go back. If I remember correctly you have expressed at different times that you think it is good that I am out.

The things I have in common with the COGR is sin-free-living, and plain-clothes. I disagree with their end times teaching, I disagree with their concept of an authoritarian ministry, I strongly disagree with there OTVC teaching, and I have found all of the ordained ministers I have gotten to know well to be arrogant and carnal and have been unimpressed with those ministers personal piety.

Of the things that I have in common with the COGR (sin-free-living, and plain-clothes) there are many groups that have these teachings so there is no need for me to go back to the COGR for those reasons.

Besides they won't accept me unless I repent of my 16 points of which it is not possible for me to do. I don't have the ability to change my convictions on any of those points. For me those are facts.


And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

If a believing man sins against God with his [will] there remains no more sacrifice for his sin; to cover that sin the Lord of glory would have to be curcified all over again, it says. Most sins are committed by a weakness of Spirit and a strength of the flesh, and not in the deeper [will] even though we may say, we did it on purpose.

When we flash the words "willful" sin around in careless ways we do not do so as a scholar, but rather as a person that's trying to prove something.

The Truth of God need not be proven. It canot be proven! We need not defend the truth of God; we merely contend for the Truth; Christ Jesus is the Truth! There's a great difference between defending and contending.

The Truth of God can freely become a way of life but when it becomes a mandated religion, we fail the [way of life test]!

Anabaptist doctrine does not teach complete sanctification while the basic Wesleyan doctrine does. Both these doctrines can be a launching pad but we must go on! Neither doctrine is an end in themselves. Both those doctrines are still quite religious and therefore actually seem to mandate a religious way of life for the individual who subscribes.

This is not saying who is more accurate considering the face value of Bible script. The pursuit of the Bible can become a very religious thing; on the other hand the Bible can point us toward a perfect God who's revealed in Christ Jesus! We can see the Bible as a pointer toward God, it being full of intrinsic Truth or we can see the Bible as something that we must defend and hold to as a man holds to a law.

The way of Life that God desires for us to walk out is to [freely] keep our eyes upon the Son; by constantly viewing such perfection we come into the image of what we are gazing upon. 2Cor.3:18 When we see the Son we have seen the Father! If the thing we have called sanctification now occurs, that's a very good thing. This must work it's way to the surface of our lives quite spontaneousely.

Salvation works it's way out from our interiors as we tremble before His perfection! This thing we experience is the Salvation of the Lord, it is not our salvation. Even the battle is the Lord's, while many believers make the battle their own. Ambitious believers go to all types of efforts to make this thing work for them rather than depending fully upon He who is our salvation! He is our peace, He is our power, He is our sanctification, He is our glorification!

Would it not be a beautiful thing if quite spontaneously we would become absolutely sin-less at some point? We must not create a doctrine against this. Jesus said this, that you may be as I am in the earth. Jesus himself however was perfected or completed through suffering! The outer-man must suffer and die and this can only occur by the power of the actual Cross!

We have been far too sin-conscious in both of the doctrines mentioned above. We do powerfully well to become more Christ conscious! Either one of these doctrines can become one's tangent and even one's tributary into religious self-life. We can walk in freedom and in soundness; we are called into freedom for freedom and we're called to a sound mind and to Love!

I do know this; the Spirit of the Lord Jesus works within us to sanctify us and we can set ourselves apart unto God as well. The renewal of the mind can occur! We can cooperated with God! The end of these things are a huge undertaking for God within us! He said that He is able to save us to the uttermost, I am sure He knew what He was talking about. Most of us need a continual day by day saving from ourselves. The fact that He was talking about us as individual believers suddenly becomes a huge subject matter.

What we know by experience we rarely argue about, but what we [believe in] many times opens up the processes of argument. Sometimes we know a whole lot more than we really know!

Let us edify each other by Love.

doug:
>>>If a believing man sins against God with his [will] there remains no more sacrifice for his sin; to cover that sin the Lord of glory would have to be curcified all over again, it says.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

I would hold that this means if you sin willfully the sins that were once covered by the sacrifice of Christ are no more by the blood - "There remaineth no more sacrifice for [those ] sins".

Jesus taught us the same in the parable of the unjust servant.

Mat 18:32-34 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

>>>Most sins are committed by a weakness of Spirit and a strength of the flesh, and not in the deeper [will] even though we may say, we did it on purpose.

All sinning comes out of the heart.

Mat 15:16-20 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

I also hold that the scripture in Heb 10:26-31 may be referring to Jews that apostatized complete and when back to the temple system. I would feel like Heb 6:4-6 teaches this. Or it is possible they are both referring to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Mat 12:31) or referring to the "sin unto death" (1Joh 5:16-17).

>>>Anabaptist doctrine does not teach complete sanctification while the basic Wesleyan doctrine does. Both these doctrines can be a launching pad but we must go on! Neither doctrine is an end in themselves. Both those doctrines are still quite religious and therefore actually seem to mandate a religious way of life for the individual who subscribes.

I hold and have experienced both salvation from sinning and entire sanctification where the carnal nature is eradicated and the heart is made pure. I agree they are not the end but a mean to the end. The end is to keep the 2 great commandments. Loving God with all our soul, mind, and strength (Mar 12:31) which is perfecting holiness in the fear of God and hungering and thirsting for righteousness. The second is to love your neighbor as yourself. This to do good to all men - helping them in their spiritual and temporal needs. It goes on to say "but especially to the household of God", (Gal 6:10) which we are to bless in with spiritual and temporal help.

>>>Salvation works it's way out from our interiors as we tremble before His perfection! This thing we experience is the Salvation of the Lord, it is not our salvation. Even the battle is the Lord's, while many believers make the battle their own.

I think it is all of faith and I mean faith that produces works. Alone by faith but not faith alone.

>>>Ambitious believers go to all types of efforts to make this thing work for them rather than depending fully upon He who is our salvation! He is our peace, He is our power, He is our sanctification, He is our glorification!

I believe in a faith that produces good works but at the same time I admit that the Bible clearly calls and reminds Christians to be full of good works.

>>>Would it not be a beautiful thing if quite spontaneously we would become absolutely sin-less at some point?

Glory! That is what happened to me and it is wonder! Glory!

>>>The outer-man must suffer and die and this can only occur by the power of the actual Cross!

Amen! Glory!

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

>>>We have been far too sin-conscious in both of the doctrines mentioned above. We do powerfully well to become more Christ conscious!

I would hold that the sin-you-must teaching is not sin conscious enough. They just accept sin as part of life and expect to sin.

>>>I do know this; the Spirit of the Lord Jesus works within us to sanctify us and we can set ourselves apart unto God as well. The renewal of the mind can occur! We can cooperated with God! The end of these things are a huge undertaking for God within us! He said that He is able to save us to the uttermost, I am sure He knew what He was talking about. Most of us need a continual day by day saving from ourselves.

Amen! Glory! Keep posting!



And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Hank:
>>>...my response is that I can only refer you to the scriptures; what I say really does not matter. It is the Word of God that counts, and It is what all are responsible to.

Hey Hank I like this response you made to Scott. If we can go by the Word and not by your experience I think we can get some where.



And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Thanks Doug, that was well spoken.

Dear Qwerty,

You are correct in your statement that I do not believe COGR is a good church for you to return to. I retract the statement I made.

Qwerty, if I recall when you first came on this site you said you did so to test your view of church/salvation/Christianity and make adjustments where you felt moved to. I hope this site has been a help to you and I wish you the best with your Wesley/Warner view of sinless ness. God will bless you as you honor Him with your life.

One thing (among many) that I am impressed with is where Jesus says; "I am the Door If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture." I view Christ as a Door for entry, rather then to keep any out. It is Christ, and Christ alone ( as you also have said ) that is the source of our salvation, and it is He that keeps us in His grace. And very important to me is that He never turned any away who came to Him; except those who did not feel a need within themselves. Both of us have expressed our daily need of Christ on our life.

I do not know anything about Xenos, but have read their statement of faith and the following article. I recommend it to you, to look at another view of sinful man: "Sin Nature of Man"

http://www.xenos.org/classes/principles/cpu2w4.htm

I don't really have much more to say except (if you have interest) to give MS & DP's views in more detail, and as I said I would respond from time to time.

All the best and God bless.

Hank W.

Hank:
>>>I don't really have much more to say except (if you have interest) to give MS & DP's views in more detail, and as I said I would respond from time to time.

Did you see this post? There are 10 clear questions I asked you and it appears you are not willing to respond to those questions? This is not the first time you have passed over my questions and which I have not keep record if I remember correctly they were similar questions.

I have always been very careful to not only answer your questions but I make that a practice in general with any post I respond to. If you are going to hold to a teaching then you should be willing to defend it when when the questions are tough. I have answered some of your tough questions? Are you going to respond to mine?



And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

I will be out for the day; but I think your conclusion of my answers is unfair. I have given you views (in line with Menno Simons & DPs views) on 1 John, Rom. 7; Psalms etc. Your response always is, no Hank, you are wrong.

Qwerty, I believe we have a fundamental difference in view of man vs. God. That is an area that we could have looked at more scripture.

Querty;

I thank God for the sanctification He has worked in you. I do not think you are proud of that in the wrong way. I once rubbed shoulders with the Nazarenes who believe in the [doctrine] of complete sanctification. Some of them seemed to be somewhat sanctified but continued to entertain that there are guidelines to righteousness. There is a gift of Righteousness in the New Covenant! In the New Covenant there are no guidelines to righteousness. There's a person of Righteousness whom we receive by Faith! There's a revelation of Christ Jesus! The idea of there being certain standards as our guidelines to righteousness is quite an unsanctified and unrenewed idea. Sometimes our idea of sanctification is predicated upon a certain standard that we're looking at.

I do think that many believers have come to the point of sanctification that you have come to Querty and make little of it other than thanking God for cleaning them up.

What's not clear in what you say Bob is this; it appears that you are saying that when you came to Christ initially you were forgiven for sins rather than for the state and condition of sin, and therefore God brings up those sins committed back in the state of sin to you again, if you fall into sin after believing. That is a far too flimsy a profession of Faith and Salvation, if that indeed is what you are saying.

If that is what you are saying, nothing is further from the real truth. God remembers our state of sin no more! He will never un-son us. He will never leave us or forsake us. We are recreated! We cannot become un-recreated! We cannot get saved from the state of sin twice. That life is forever past and covered, there is no shadow of turning with our God about that. Sonship is perpetual but there are disobedient sons who must pay the piper, so to speak.

There is a deep will in all of us by which we came to Christ; that same will can sin against God and thus blaspheme Him. This is the single sin mentioned in New Covenant writings that is unto death and we ought not pray for such a person that has sinned in this way!

If a man's works cannot endure, he himself will suffer loss, his works will burn but he himself will be saved as by Fire, it says! Understanding what God does by Grace and what He does by Fire makes for a good study.

His salvation is full and complete, His salvation is a glorious salvation. He has made the full provision!

dited for clarity

Hank:
>>>I will be out for the day; but I think your conclusion of my answers is unfair.

I accept that you are not willing to answer the 10 questions that I have asked. I realize they are difficult. They were the ones I had to address when I used to hold your position and they are the ones that helped me to see the error of my want and to be saved.

And I have found this is not uncommon for you. A number of times I have asked you questions that are difficult for those that stand up for sin in a believer and you have not answered them.

So I encourage you to address each of the questions to and do your best.



And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.