Gen.1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:


Who is this "us"?


31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


When God made man, did He already know that Adam & Eve would sin? When God made man, did He already know that He would have to destroy them with a flood, besides Noah and Co.?

GM.. I understand that is already showing the presence of God the Father, Holy Spirit, and Jesus.

Yes, that is how I was taught too. "Elohim" plural God as in Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

KSuzanne

"When God made man, did He already know that Adam & Eve would sin? When God made man, did He already know that He would have to destroy them with a flood, besides Noah and Co.?"

There's a verse that says that it is not God's will that any should perish.

GM; your question made me think of Col.1:16

"16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him."

"HIM" is referring to Jesus Christ; it was Jesus who created the world or at least He as part of the the trinity. So, I believe that God already had a plan in place to reconcile man to Himself through Christ, and also knew of Noah and the Deluge.

This question is one that will interest Scott, because he believes if God created man, and knew that His creation of man would fail, then God is responsible for the failure (or close this reasoning). And I can understand that line of reasoning (and do not wish to start an argument but we need to acknowledge that reasoning.)

My follow up question to GM's is, did God ever destroy (destroy as in the flood) without giving the guilty party chance to change ? Noah preached for 120 years (was it?) and man choose not to respond. God is all merciful and would never unfairly punish/destroy without a reason.

Hank, we have a preacher in Topeka by the name of Fred Phelps who has been preaching a message of doom similar to Noah’s. Are we really screwing up by not taking him seriously? I’m sure everyone in Noah’s day thought he was just as crazy, so how can you hold them accountable?

Okay, now I'll get to my point.

When God stood back and looked at all he had created, he said it was very good. God is love, and in Him is infinite wisdom and understanding, He is the alpha and omega. Why, if it is not His will that any should perish, did He make it so extremely hard to avoid perishing?(being lost) If His love for us is even beyond our own understanding, even more than we love ourselves, why would He put us down here in the devil's territory to be buffeted with every manner of evil and affliction and make it so that we could scarcely be saved and we can only have a hope of salvation? Can we be deceived into thinking we have assurance of salvation? Is just having faith and believing in Jesus Christ sufficient?

Paul and Silas said to the jailer, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household." Acts 16:31

They didn't say, BUT, you have to do this and this too. Is it really that simple?

GM, why not let that last post stand. I went to review it and it was gone

Ok pastdue, I put it back.


I can see where Scott is coming from and I have asked myself this question for a long time. What was God's point in making our lives so incredibly difficult in every area of life and on top of that, we have to figure out how to be saved by letters of people pieced together from 2000 years ago and translated many times(Bible) and we have to rely on the accuracy of every one involved in order to have a chance at being saved?

Beings he knew everything from beginning to end, why wasn't there any other options than the options we have been given? Why couldn't He have destroyed Satan and his followers or put them in their own hell somewhere else, like right on the sun or something? Why do we have to fight the miserable screwball our whole life?

If hell is actually what we all believe it to be, why would He want to put man that He created and loves so dearly in a place like that for eons just because we messed up? The Bible says not one sin will enter Heaven and yet we are sinners no matter how perfect we try to be? You say we are saved by grace which is true, but how many, and what sins does it cover? So what I'm saying is how do we really know if we are saved?

GM,regarding your post about it being that simple...I sure wish I knew also. One thing I am starting to see tho..the H church has a lot of fear teaching in it and something feels off with that. I know there is a healthy fear or respect of God's power but this thing of having to do this and this or THIS will happen and living according to that and feeling like the whip is always about to fall just doesn't seem right.

God's judgements are a refiners fire. Not a torturers fire. God would no more torture people for eternity with no hope, than a parent would torture a child with no intent to restore/correct. The problem is in the translations, but more so, in peoples effeminate minds, and their murderous revengeful hearts.

Why not just start by looking into the translations of Gehenna, Tartaras, hades, sheol, etc. and see how all those are smeared by the KJV and its variants into an ambiguous term "hell" (eternal torture). If that doesn't do it, then consider the dozens of scriptures that flat out state that all men will be eventually restored to God (different times, different rewards, different levels of correction). If that doesn't get you to thinking, do a search on "doctrine of reserve" by the Catholic Church, i.e., deceiving the laity about the true scriptures to get them to submit(from fear) to the Church. If that doesn't do it, study the arguments involving how to translate the word aeon which were argued by St Augustine and his cronies. If that doesn't do it yet, appeal to your own common sense, compassion, and nobility as a parent. If that doesn't do it, then consider the importance of civil law which forbids the punishment to greatly exceed the law (there shall be no cruel and unusual punishments - US constituion) If that doesn't do it, then well...I don't know

Amos has a worthwhile article on eternal torment what will save a person much time in research. Amos and I came to our conclusions completely independently.

GM wrote: "What was God's point in making our lives so incredibly difficult in every area of life and on top of that, we have to figure out how to be saved by letters of people pieced together from 2000 years ago and translated many times(Bible) and we have to rely on the accuracy of every one involved in order to have a chance at being saved?"

My response GM, is that it is not difficult as many people try to make it. Jesus said a Child could understand. As I understand it, it comes down to "faith in Jesus Christ". Of course, now you have Qwerty and others who now tell you what else it takes to "stay saved". It is only when we get beyond the simplicity of the gospel and into theology, church, afterlife, culture, etc., that we get at each others throats. Why is this ?

I'd say it is in part, pride in our own selves, our egos, etc., and another thing.

Firstly, the gospel is objective, and not subjective. It does NOT take going forward, crying in shame, knowing all about the Bible, speaking in tongues, assenting to any formality etc. Salvation is simple as John 3:16 says; 'that whosoever believes..." Some churches (cultures) may be more emotional then others, but this is not the point of salvation. I understand the Bible to state over and over that we are to "believe". I believe the evangelical community is too far into a subjective gospel.

It is the result of the new birth that out of love and respect for the One who saved us, we pattern our lives after Him; Christ.

May not be on the subject you wanted addressed, but....

Adam and Eves' need to hide started after they had knowledge of good and evil. They were unconscious of their state of dress until then. God provided them with a solution to their discomfort.

The serpent motivated them to get their knowledge. Why? Because he had an interest in separating man from God. Not because he wanted man but because he wanted a go at God.

God could have made man an automatic praiser like a bird. He didn't. However, when man turns to God and see's what God has done to redeem him, he becomes a freewill praiser of God. Not as a horse in a round pen, but better. as in a horse actually trying to communicate with the intellect of a human to see what he can do to do good for God and His creation. Call that works.

The guilt that Adam felt was what the devil wanted. It made Adam hide and separate himself. If Adam had repented right there and ran to God the story would have had a different ending. Adam did not believe that God would accept. Sound familiar?
The devil likes that!

When Nixon was being prosecuted the President granted a pardon. The prosecuter had to let the case go. When pardoned by the top of Government, no body in the country could continue prosecution. That's grace-sort of.

We want to be free before God, and God say's "repent of your sin, believe that Jesus paid for the sin for you, and become a new creature."

Sometimes we don't want to repent. hard on our pride. Sometimes we think we should pay our way. our pride. Sometimes we don't want to follow so we can change. our pride.

The tree was God's. Right and wrong are God's. The devil was and is using these things of God's to steal the sheep. God said "don't eat. you'll die." Satan said, you'll be wise and know it all yourself."
They didn't die physically right there, but they sure did spiritually. The physical followed.

by Cupcake - One thing I am starting to see tho..the H church has a lot of fear teaching in it and something feels off with that.<

Yeah Cupcake,I agree with that about fear. Everything(almost) we do has to be channeled through the graces of the church. Fear of the consequences if we step out of line and how others perceive us.

'Perfect love casteth out fear'. Where is our love?