I want to believe god is real. I grew up my whole life believing it... At one point in my life i even wanted to become a priest. Now, after taking physics, biology, chemistry, and basically after I educated myself, I find that there is no such thing as a supirior being. There is zero evidence supporting it. Even to say "what created energy to create this universe" is not an argument for god since, nothing can exist unless there is energy or matter. Nothing could exist before the begining of the universe. To say what is south of the southpole is undifined. What happened before the begining of the universe is undefined therefore leaving god undefined.

I felt more fulfilled when i realized he wasn't real. When all my questions about god and the begining of the universe were answered. When I realized god was non-existant and could not exist, I learned something... I was SCARED into believing in god. I was told that if i didn't believe in him there would be emptiness in my sould and everyone who didn't believe was never really complete. I believed that. Now I know that's just bull****. Also, I learned that without a god to rely on, I have myself. I am a much stronger individual because of it.

I want to believe in god.. to make my parents happy.. but I just can't convince myself to leave this anymore... I just can't. Someone help me. If i'm wrong please give me some evidence because if i am wrong i'm obviously going to hell. Give me some shread of non-subjective evidence as the scientific community has so kindly given me.

Sincerly,
Athiest



here is a fb discussion question. Is taking God out of schools to blame for this kids confusion or what is?

or is he right??

I think the reason for this persons conclusion is not because God was taken out of schools, but is just a logical conclusion to evidence. We have a clear example of evidence based belief, versus faith based belief.

The trouble with putting God in schools, is that it usually comes with Christian beliefs which are not compatible with scientific evidence.

Because one believes in intellegent design concerning creation does not mean that this same person believes in a six day creation story. That six day thing troubles many a thoughtful person.

There is no proof that God exists, that's granted. On the other hand there is no proof that God does not exist, can this be granted? Belief is therefore more about an attitude than about proof.

There is evidence that something higher and more intelligent than mere humanity gets involved in the affairs of humanity. We call that God but we cannot prove that it is. One sees this evidence if one wants to, if one does not want to see this, this person will not see this.

If upon belief from the heart in the Lord Jesus, one's life immediately begins to spiral upward in quality from that point forward, this is an evidence that that essence we call God does exist and can get personally involved in the affairs of mankind.

To [believe] in a rock from the heart changes nothing in our personal lives. To [believe] that Jesus is not the Son of God and that He did not raise from the dead does not cause one's life to spiral upward, although ones faith has just been activated but to the negative. It is therefore not about faith but about what that faith is directed toward. There are intrinsic truths such as love, mercy, justice, restoration, and forgiveness. Place the name Jesus upon those intrinsic truths and it is [not] hard at all to place one's faith in that! Jesus is the access code for the intrinsic truths mentioned. It was He who revealed this to us!

Attitude plays the larger part in this matter. There is an attitude that desires to believe and there is an attitude that does not desire to believe.

It requires as much faith to believe that God does not exist as it does to believe that God does exist. It's simply a matter in what one places his or her faith. One's faith can be in what one thinks he knows and call that the facts or one's faith can be in intrinsic truth and call that the truth! This thing boils down nicely while it reveals our attitude; not a bad or good attitude so much but a different attitude. The reward for the attitudes are different and I am not speaking of heaven or hell at this point. I am speaking of a life with greater quality and of such quality that we call it Eternal Life! On the other hand the quality is simply the best we can make it.


edited to clarify

<<If upon belief from the heart in the Lord Jesus, one's life immediately begins to spiral upward in quality from that point forward, this is an evidence that that essence we call God does exist and can get personally involved in the affairs of mankind.>>

In my journey from Holdemanism to atheism, the turning point when my life began to spiral upward in spiritual & mental health was when I rejected Christianity and religion in general.

If I understand your basic argument correctly, you are stating that when belief in a deity results in improved quality of life that this is evidence that the essence known as god exists. People from many different cultures and walks of life come to peace with themselves, their past and their future through various religions and philosophies. Religion acts as a contextual framework for them to order their lives, often for their spiritual, mental and physical betterment.

It follows that you either have to be open to the possibility that a Christian god is only one facet of the essence known as god, or you must reject what other religions offer as the essence called the devil in Christian terms. As a man of science, I believe they are all the same: faith based systems offer a contextual framework for people to order their lives. Growing up I often heard about "mysteries of the gospel" that opened up to the faithful as they matured in their Christian lives. My own life experiences have shown me that many of these "mysteries of the gospel" are life truths that I also have learned through life experience and which I have no doubts that people from all walks of life across the globe are learning through their own respective life experiences, regardless of belief system.

I can relate with the original post. After I lost my faith and came to realize that god does not exist and that the universe as we know it is governed by the laws of science, both discovered and undiscovered, I went through a very troubling time of desperately wanting to believe there was a god. When you've lived an entire lifetime as a faith based person with a belief that there is an underlying guiding presence that is concerned with your daily affairs, it is disconcerting to have the carpet ripped out from underneath you and to realize that you are hurtling through space without a safety net.

Micky, read what French philosopher and mathematician Blaise Pascal said, called "Pascal's wager", a short paragraph found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

Micky,

My definition of God is largely a power and intellegence greater than man, that made man and the world, which power is still alive and can do supernatural things even today.

Now Micky just look in the mirror and you will see evidence of something that was designed and made, and by something that has more intellegence than man. Man does not even understand his own body, and yet some power and intellegence designed and made it!! I believe it is almost as bizzare to claim their is no evidence of God, as it is for a parachuter or a pilot to say their is no evidence of air because he cannot see it, while he is freely flying about in his airplane, or slowing falling to the earth in a parachute, and yet the evidence surrounds him.

Following is something I wrote on an old thread found at http://www.network54.com/Forum/419882/thread/1215373222/Death%27s+Door;

Stan,

I very much agree you cannot trick your mind into believing something that it does not naturally believe. Yet I believe our minds can naturally know and believe that a power and intelligence greater than man created our complex world involving every thing on it and surrounding it. I call that power God, even if it would have involved evolution as some claim. Further it is easier to believe that this power always existed, than to believe such a great intelligence and power suddenly derived from nothing at all. Further it also is quite natural to believe that such an intelligence and power would not suddenly die or cease to exist. Further it also is quite reasonable to believe that the intelligence and power that made our complex world of creatures pertaining to air, land, and water, and the very heart that beats in us, would also be aware of and watching what He made.

You wrote above that "If there is some sort of spiritual communication with the creator of the universe, that would be pretty awesome to be involved!" and wrote, "If it ever happens I will welcome it as a highlight of my life." Yet were not expecting it. I don't know how serious you were in writing that, but I therewith would think it very reasonable to try to communicate with that intelligence and power much greater than man which made man, which power is quite reasonable to think would not suddenly disappear, and rather would be interested in and care about what He made. I know of a certainty that super natural things happened in my life which I believe came from this power, while many others tell of super natural things happening in their lives. I believe it to be a fool who claims nothing supernatural happens in this world. Yet for some reason many seemingly never get in contact with this power till they get to deaths door, and many never do get in contact with it.

Stan then wrote,

Amos, you say, “I believe our minds can naturally know and believe that a power and intelligence greater than man created our complex world involving every thing on it and surrounding it”. The majority of people throughout the years have agreed with this statement, and it does sound like a reasonable belief. But if something seems natural, does that make it true? Einstein’s relativity certainly does not seem natural, but it has been proven to be true many times over. What I’m getting at is that our “natural” intuition is not always as trustworthy as we assume it to be.

Note that Stan in the above paragraph seemed to admit that it is more natural to believe that a higher power (God) made man than to believe Einstein's theory, while even further supernatural things of our day furthur reveal a living higher power (God).

Following is another of my quotes from that thread;

Regardless how some things might change to adapt to their environment, and regardless of our questions about our complex world, it is simply obvious that an intelligence and power much greater than man designed and somehow made it, and regarding this intelligence and power it also is very reasonable to believe it always existed rather than suddenly deriving from nothing, and further to believe this force would not suddenly become extinct, but rather would continue to exist and would be interested in and watching what He made. This intelligence and power I call God, and which intelligence and power I believe does supernatural things among humanity and which I have witnessed some of. Obviously an intelligence and power that can make a body that can heal itself as ours do when hurt, could have made a body that would get healthier every year, or resurrect that body into a better one if He so desires. May this God have mercy us.

Kevin, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I sometimes wonder what you or others really mean when they say they don't or hardly believe in a God. What exactly is it they doubt exists, or why do they doubt He exists? Has there never been a much greator intellegence and power in our universe than man? Or is that not God? Did He never exist? Did He cease to exist? Does He not care about what He created? What are the details.

I have never been a serious athiest but I was a hopeless agnostic for years.
When I was an agnostic I was still a Holdiman in good standing so far as all the regulatory things were concerned. They seemed not to be very worried about me; I did sense their sympathies for my condition. Daniel Koehn of Monte and I would kneel down in his living room and he would pray for me, I remember appreciating his interest and caring heart. After many years of this it narrowed down for me and I chose to believe when I saw that neither position could be proven.

My sister also reared as a Holdiman Mennonite told me that she did not think she believed any longer. She was getting her [masters] at the time. I asked her, which God do you not believe in? I too am a complete athiest when it comes to certain models of God that some have created. I said to her; I do not believe in the model of God that requires traditions, customs, and legal performances that have been designed to please Him. I am an athiest as well to that model of God. She is now in a slow process of choosing to believe.

Great minds historically have found some awesome relief [not by rolaids] but in the acceptance of the idea that God does [not] exist. When fear is gone the quality of life that we live becomes much better. The negative fear of God leaves us when we reach total disbelief; that is admittedly a great relief. The mind and heart are now able to function much better. "The issues of life procede from the heart". There's something intrinsic about that passage if we believe or not.

I will insert here that the negative fear of God can leave as well by pefect Love manifesting in and through us! Right here are two schools of thought both of which brings a better quality life! Both appear to be evidence of our position as being accurate. I'm okay with that. It cannot be [proven] that God exists and that He is involved in the affairs of mankind. Evidence is one thing but to prove something is quite another. If this could be proven then the thoughtful person would be forced to believe and that is not how this thing is designed. I rest in that.

I really think we can subliminally believe and yet deny that we believe. If we subliminally believe in unconditional love, hope, mercy, peace of mind and heart, forgiveness, restoration and happiness, how can we say that we do not believe? I think people believe at times yet think they do not believe.

There is one Name given whereby we can be restored or saved from our lower self. This name accesses the free flow of unconditional love, vibrant hope, experienced mercy and the ability to freely give mercy, perpetual forgiveness, pure justice, peace of mind and heart, restoration, and much joy! By belief from the heart upon that Name we get opened up, down on the inside! Christ in us the hope of glory is the mystery revealed in the New Covenant.

How in the world does this work? I do not know, but then I do not have to understand exactly how electricty works to go over to the wall and switch the lights on. I guess I'm simply a simple man..



edited for clarity

Interesting statement Doug; and on a similar vein I say that it is impossible to think we believe, and yet not be believing. I had to settle this very quickly in 1976, or I would have gone crazy. It took almost a week.

Doug said: "I really think we can subliminally believe and yet deny that we believe."

Thanks, Hank, for posting that. I'm not sure if I have heard of Pascal's Wager, but I have thought about the subject in similar fashion.

One grows up in a system that discourages critical thought and instills a fear of deception and a strict adherence to a "way" defined by men. Over time. something begins to awaken and the blinders to come off. When one starts to question, where do you stop? A collapsing belief in "a way" that is closely tied to a belief in God can bring belief in God down with it. One starts to analyze all the spiritual events in life that before were held to dearly and taken for granted. Were they real? Was God really there? What about everything else that seems to contradict the Bible? If one says that, for example, the six day creation didn't happen that way and the universe is 14 billion years old, where do you get a hold of something solid?
In the OT, God was not ambiguous or vague. The Red Sea was parted. City walls fell down. Armies were destroyed supernaturally. Angels visited with men. In the NT, Christ was not ambiguous. He performed miracles healing the sick and raising the dead. The Holy Spirit fell on people and changed their lives dramatically. Prison doors were opened. The list goes on and on. Why did thousands believe at once?
Now here we are on this forum saying there really is no personal proof of God's existence. That we just somehow convince ourselves to "believe" and everything will turn out OK. That it is a "wager" That a thinking person will never know for certain. Somewhere, God has changed, disappeared, or He never existed and the Bible is a fairy tale. Why does it seem so ambiguous? Am I the only one wondering "where is the Lord God of Elijah?"

We do not emperically know that God exists, but we can believe this with all of our hearts! The greatest faith I have seen was in a fellow in Fla. who once told me this; after so great a miracle as the new birth and the spontaneous life changes following among all the big and smaller miracles after this, we still cannot emperically prove that this is God; we simply and unequivocally believe it is however. This is the only way in which a thoughtful athiest can be alerted.

Once we believe, then He convinces us beyond any doubt that He is and that He rewards those who believe. Mighty miracles now occur in my own family's life, where at one time they did not! These miracles do not occur by an emperical knowedge that He is, but rather by my and my wife's belief that He is and that He rewards men and women who unwaveringly believe i.e. doubt not.

I think that some have misunderstood me and I hope it did not happen on purpose.

We cannot [convince ourselves] of His existance as the former writer acuses us of doing [good naturedly of course]. This is because the proof to do that is not available to us. We choose to believe and this begins with a certain attitude.

A tiny baby has no attitude to begin with and therefore cannot and does not consciously believe. A little later attitudes are developed and even a young child can believe in God. This early belief can be shaken to it's roots later as it was in me in my twenties. I made the mistake of going to the beautiful Carlsbad

-caverns among other things and taking a closer look at what nature undeniably speaks to us; it simply did not fit the model I had had of God and creation. I saw remote and very distant stars and galaxities whose shafts of light had already traveled to earth at the speed of light, and it simpy did not fit the model I had early on of God and creation.

The Bible and it's scenerios are not an evidence to the athiest or to those who have chosen not to believe. The face value of the Bible is hardly an evidence to the agnostic either.

The miraculous scenes of the Bible are a further evidence only to those who already believe. It is obvious that that is where the former writer dwells and I appreciate his faith.

edited to clarify

Doug, what I wrote was not so much a dig at you as a outpouring of some of my conflicting thoughts.

For example, you write: "We do not emperically know that God exists, but we can believe this with all of our hearts! "

The word empirical denotes information gained by means of observation, experience, or experiment.[1] It is a central concept in science and the scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical, or empirically based, that is, dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses. - Wikipedia

Do you think Noah had empirical evidence of God's existence? What about Abraham or Daniel or Mary and Martha or Paul? I guess if you don't call their experiences empirical, I concede the point. On the other hand, if God grants empirical evidence to only a select few, what does that mean?

and you say: "Mighty miracles now occur in my own family's life, where at one time they did not!"

I'm not getting what you are saying here. First you say we "do not emperically know that God exists" then you go on to talk about miracles. Are the miracles observable and tangible? Would they seem ambiguous to an impartial observer? Are they empirical to you?

Or are you saying that if one believes, empirical evidence will follow, albeit personal?

I don't doubt you, nor am I seeking a debate. I am just trying to understand what you are actually saying. Sorry for being dense.

Boy oh boy, language itself is so ambigious in nature but it's the best that we have.

Observable and attainable by the processes of deductable reasoning is what I meant by saying emperical knowledge.

No man at any time has seen God unless of course one sees Him with the eye of the Spirit!

Adam walked and talked with God; now what exactly was that? God is Spirit ad can we walked with when we are in the Spirit. Abraham and David and the rest walked with God by walking in the Spirit!

Openly observable miracles wrought at the hand of God can be seen at many intervels in historical writings. Yes, we see these at our house as well and at times they actually suprise us! This solidifies and strengthens our belief in God! At this point we can say that we know that He is; we're convinced, but at the same time we know that our faith is what has convinced us and not the miracles so much.

Miracles can occur by other sources than God. What we believe in [happens]. If we believe in sin, sin will occur in our lives at regular intervels. If we believe in darkness then darkness will happen. If we believe in satan then he happens in our lives. Those believers who place great faith in satan rather than realizing that he is a defeated foe, open their lives up to satan at various levels.

If we believe in God then He happens in our lives. If we believe in the good then the good happens in our lives, which simply reveals that the issues of our lives procede from our hearts by what our heart believes.

If we believe from the heart upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ then this same Jesus begins to happen in our lives! If one believes in a religious jesus then this same jesus begins to happen in our lives. If one believes in a churchy jesus then this jesus begins to happen in our lives. Belief is the access door. His name is the access code or the access key to the Kingdom of Heaven; how I wish my language was completely clear.

"Miracles can occur by other sources than God. What we believe in [happens]. If we believe in sin, sin will occur in our lives at regular intervels. If we believe in darkness then darkness will happen. If we believe in satan then he happens in our lives. Those believers who place great faith in satan rather than realizing that he is a defeated foe, open their lives up to satan at various levels.

If we believe in God then He happens in our lives. If we believe in the good then the good happens in our lives, which simply reveals that the issues of our lives procede from our hearts by what our heart believes.

If we believe from the heart upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ then this same Jesus begins to happen in our lives! If one believes in a religious jesus then this same jesus begins to happen in our lives. If one believes in a churchy jesus then this jesus begins to happen in our lives. Belief is the access door. His name is the access code or the access key to the Kingdom of Heaven; how I wish my language was completely clear.'


Scary stuff, that. And really really ambiguous. Whatever I believe becomes a reality somehow. Smoke and mirrors. So what is truth? Where is the solid footing if even Jesus becomes to me as I believe and not necessarily as He really is? Is this the Gospel of Relativity?

Indeed we must guard our hearts and what we believe at that level. The gospel of Jesus is pure and holy and therefore is safe to believe in from the heart. There are other jesus's and other anointings than Christ Jesus!
If any man come preaching another jesus it is cursed, it says.

As to athiests; I have personally observed that those athiests who say they do not believe at the level of the mind, may not yet have spoken from the heart. God looks on the heart but man looks upon the outside.

"The issues of life procede from the heart". That's not only scary but it is a blessing to know it.

Wow. You know, Doug, you have breezed through a couple thousand words and a dozen feel -good paragraphs, referred to me in the third person, but have failed to really answer any question I have asked in meaningful way. Just kinda slid off here and slid off there. Oh well, peace anyway.

I'm sorry, I certainly did not mean to do any of what you said. What I was doing is this; I did not want to get off the subject matter onto other things. Helping a person who does not believe, to open up to the possility of a God who gets involved with humanity in personal ways, was my goal. I felt I was being pulled away from my central motive.

Mickey.. I'm a bit confused... is that what you are now believing? Or did you get that off of another site?

The taking God out of school is only a minor part of the bigger problem. People are taking God out of their life because they don't see God actively moving in any of the people's live surrounding them. They are not seeing the power of God that is talked of in the Bible. When a person is believing in God out of fear, it is definitely believable that they think they find more peace in not believing in Him when they start trusting in the scientific community's findings.

NO I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS.

I SEEN THIS WRITING ON A DISCUSSION ON FACEBOOK, AND I THOUGHT ABOUT THE DISCUSSION ON THIS FORUM ABOUT GOD

BEING TAKEN OUT OF OUR SCHOOLS.

JUST WONDERED WHAT YOUR THOUGHTS ARE... ITS BEEN INTERESTING SO FAR!

C.O.Jones>If we believe in the good then the good happens in our lives, which simply reveals that the issues of our lives procede from our hearts by what our heart believes.>

I am not sure that I can go along with this statement. It smacks of what I was told by some folks for years and I could never get the gist of it then either. I would be told over and over by folks that thought GOd was not a part of my life because I have had a lot of backsets and severe life threatening illness in my life time, they would say, If you were where you are supposed to be then none of these bad things would happen to you. then over and over I saw couples come home from the mission for a furlough and watch them as their Dairy barn burnt down, their child nearly died from meningitis, the husband got severely handicapped in a train accident, the husband got hit by a car and lost his leg, the husband fell thru a skylight hole while working on a roof and is forever mentally handicapped. these things happened over and over again to many people that I knew were living their life in as close a relationship to God that they could.
I watched my grandfather die when I was 13 from cancer. He was a man that tried to always see the good in life and serve God to the best of his ability. I watched my mother die screaming in pain 9 yrs ago. She was known for looking for the good in anyone and any situation. and she was still trying her best to do that till the day she died.
Maybe I am a bit jaded by life but just because you believe only in good is no guarantee that you will only have good things in your life. Yes Good things will come along with the bad but I have never been able to see that theory that if you only see good, only good will happen. My Bible says It rains on the just and the unjust alike.
We are watching a very dear friend struggle to gain the use back in the only arm that he has that he is able to use so that he can go back to his job at a local hardware store. That arm is the only part of his body he can move beside his head slightly and he can talk. All because when he was 37 he took a floor scrubber apart on a job he was doing and put the screws in his mouth while he cleaned it and fixed it and the next day he was paralyzed from the neck down. He had a chemical reaction to the cleaner. When he was 25 he lost his first wife when she accidently fell off the back steps backwards and died from her injury. they had already lost a daughter that was several months old and he was left with 2 small boys. He remarried and adopted 2 girls because they could not have children and 10 yrs later God blessed them with a son of their own. that was 29 yrs ago, 2 yrs before he lost his body use. They are one of the most upbeat couples you will ever meet. But that does not mean they have only good in their life. Now he has just been released from the hospital after a month and placed in a care facility closer to their home, for therapy. but they are not holding out much hope to them that he can go back to work and he is struggling hard to keep his joy in that. So they must adjust to living a seperate life as a couple along with dealing with the loss of his mobility. They are fortunate to have many friends and family that help them take care of things and they are a real inspiration to us all.
But Life happens to one and all and some come thru it like lilies and others live in beds of roses. One set is beautiful and smooth. the other is beautiful and thorny.


Love and prayers, Locklady

opps wrong thread...

I appreciate what you shared Locklady.

Job was very righteous in his actions and words and yet his heart was plagued with fear according to the account. He said, what I have greatly feared has come upon me. Job would make sacrifices for his children when he feared that they were sinning. It appears that God was separating Job from his fears and using the enemy to identify it. This enemy comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy. What was finally worked in Job was a good and perfect thing. Alas Job's heart became holy and without fear at the end of the awesome trial and God turned everything around for him. Perfect love casts out all fear! In all this, Job did not sin with his words. Fear can nearly destroy us even though our words are good; fear is an issue of the heart. Fear can overide a good heart.

No one to my knowledge walks these things out perfectly.

I had a very good friend who said this; Doug if I go to a salvage yard to buy a used bumper-jack and there are five of them leaning against the counter, the very one I pick out will break the very first time I use it.
That was pretty much his record. This man although a good man and a very helpful man had a heart that was fear ridden.

Mickey.. ok.. ty for clarifying. I was sitting here thinking.. man that was a big change from what you had been posting. Sorry.

Athiest's comment in the opening post: "I find that there is no such thing as a supirior being. There is zero evidence supporting it. Even to say "what created energy to create this universe" is not an argument for god since, nothing can exist unless there is energy or matter."

In "The Holiness of God" by RC Sproul, he says, "The modern view (that the world was created by nothing) is far more miraculous than the biblical view. It suggests that nothing created something. More than that, it holds that nothing created everything..."

Also, he states that people saying the universe was created by nothing are saying that it was created by chance. But to say that the universe was created by chance is to say that it came from nothing. What are the chances of that?

St. Augustine said that somewhere, somehow, something or someone had to have the power of being. If not, then nothing would now exist.

"[God] is not nothing. He is not chance. He is pure Being, the One who has the power to be all by Himself. He alone is eternal. He alone has power over death. He alone can call worlds into being by fiat, by the power of His command." (page 11)

I'm just getting started in it, but it's good so far.