The key to one true visible church (OTVC) teaching is the word visible. All true Christians understand that there is only one church (Eph 4:4) and that all the saved are the members of that one church which is in heaven and earth (Eph 3:15).

Most would agree that the new testament church was visible and all congregations were in unity in the first century.

Let's take a quick look at how things when from one visible church in the New Testament time to the state we are in now where we have 1000's of denominations or sects. Then we will address the issue of some of these sects making the claim that they and they alone are the one true visible church and all other denominations are false and wrong.

Paul told the Thessalonians that there would "come a falling away" and the "man of sin" would be revealed who would "exalt himself" setting himself up in the "temple of God, showing himself that he is God" (2The 2:4). All we have to do is take a look at history to see that this falling away has already happened and it is not some future event.

Already in the letter to the seven churches of Asia Minor (Turkey) in 95AD we find deplorable conditions in these congregations (Rev 2:1-3:22). We don't know for sure at what date the falling away happened but we can see by the reign of Constantine that the church certianly was fallen.

In 312AD Constantine had his army baptized after seeing a vision. After retaking Rome from Maxentius he announced the toleration of Christianity and established a precedent for the position of the Christian Emperor in the church. He considered himself responsible to maintain orthodoxy and acted as judge in the North African dispute concerning the teaching of the Donatists in 316 and he dealt with the teaching of Arianism in 325 at the Council of Nicaea. The leaders of what was then considered Christianity accepted his authority.

The system that Constantine started after a number of years turned into the Roman Catholic system with a infallible leader called the pope and system which was empowered by the secular government. The Protestant reformation of the 1500's broke the rule of the Roman Catholic system and made way for the establishing of many different denominations or sects.

This is a condensed version of the events but it does get us from the New Testament time to today. So here we are today with 1000's of different denominations or sects. In the middle of all this division there has arisen different sects that have made the claim that they are restoring Christian from its fallen state back to the New Testament standard.

Not only are they claiming this but they are also claiming that they are the only congregations with a lampstand, and that all other congregations are confusion, Babel, Babylon, and the congregation of the dead. The number of sects that are claiming to be the one true visible church numbers in the 100's.

Each one of these groups is calling all Christians to their group and demand that they accept their teachings, standards, and form of conduct. If they refuse over a period of time, they will - with bigoted fervor - tell you that you are not honest and more than likely not saved.

For support of their position, they take the New Testament church as it is laid out in New Testament scripture, and apply it to be speaking exclusively about their group.

Therefore, if the Bible says that Jesus is the only way, that means they are the only way. When the Bible says "other sheep I have and they must come to the fold", then this is no longer the Jews and Gentiles, but their sect and all other Christians.

They show you the scriptures on unity, and tell you that confusion is of the devil and that you must forsake all sect confusion and come to the one true visible church. These anti-sectarians, as they call themselves, are more sectarian than those they consider sectarians.

How much more utterly intolerant of any differing creed (definition of bigot) can a group get that to tell some one that they are no longer saved but now on the way to hell because they refuse to agree that their group and their group alone is the one true visible church.

Now it is not just Jesus, but Jesus and their sect that is the only true way; you no longer have to just accept Jesus, but you have to accept Jesus and their sect. These bigoted ministers are no longer the servants to the church but they now like "Gentiles exercise lordship" (Mar 10:42) over the flock. They have become enforcers that claim to have a mandate from God to root up and cast any wheat into hell that will not bow to their every decision and teaching.

When these ministers "condemneth the just" that refuse to accept their sect as the one true visible church this conduct is an "abomination to the LORD" (Pro 17:15). These ministers are not satisfied to be sectarian and bigoted themselves they attempt to turn all the good Christians they can find in other groups into bigoted believers. They raise bigoted children and all converts they bring forth they do their best to make them into bigoted OTVC-praising Christians.

May God have mercy on these ministers who have imbibed the same sectarian spirit that was working in Diotrephes. This spirit caused Diotrephes to not only not accept John the Apostle and others but to prated against them with malicious words, forbidding others to accept them and casting those out the congregation that did (3Joh 1:9, 10).

This is the spirit that was worked in Henry Hildebrandt, Danny Layne, Ray Tinsmen, and Susan Mutch who agreed that I needed to be cast me out of the Restoration assembly here in Aylmer after they read my letter to Henry Hildebrandt which contained my 16 objections to Church of God Restoration practices and doctrines.

This sectarian spirit not only had them cast me out of their assemblies but caused them with malicious words to slander my good Christian name claiming I was no longer a Christian because I have rejected their claim to be the one true visible church.

The Bible calls us to rejoice when others "say all manner of evil against you falsely" (Mat 5:11) but at the same time the Word calls us in meekness to instruct those of their error and call them to repentance (2Tim 2:25).

I want to express my love to my Christian friends of some odd 20 years that are in the Restoration. I love you all dearly but at the same time I must exhort you to not be bigoted and sectarian in your spirit by refusing to accept me as a Christian based on the false reports you have received from the Restoration ministry.

Don't be duped by just a few short quotes you have been read from the 5 page letter I send to Henry Hildebrandt. Don't allow these ministers that the Bible has called to be your servants to exercise Gentile type lordship over your (Mar 10:42) with intimation and spiritual threats to cast you out of the church if you don't obey them.

Put Jesus first and obey him no matter what any man claims he can do to you. Keep in mind that none of the Restoration messengers (angels) can separate you from the love of God (Rom 8:38, 39) so don't believe their false claims to the keys of the church.

Don't believe their reports that you are told with out checking them out first. Stand on the Word that clearly teaches us to not follow the example of "the simple" that "believeth every word" (Pro 14:15). Be prudent and don't "answereth a matter" (Pro 18:13) before looking into it, knowing that "he that is first in his own cause seemeth just" (Pro 18:17).

I also want to express a heart full of love toward you ministers who in error cast me out of the fellowship here in Aylmer. I pray for you regularly and by the grace of God I have nothing but love in my heart for your souls. This love constrains me to warn you that you may be recovered from your confusion.

I call you to repent for your bigoted spirit and your sectarian sins. May God have mercy on your souls and it is my hope that you have committed these in sins in ignorance and that our merciful God will not impute them to you.

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

"Most would agree that the new testament church was visible and all congregations were in unity in the first century."

How would you say they were (1)visible, and (2)in unity in the first century that we're not today?

What I mean is that if we are going to argue against the OTVC, and we "agree that the new testament church was visible and all congregations were in unity in the first century," we need to show them why that can't be true today.

Sorry, just clear up my confusion here. I'm sorta dense.


Sally

We can forgive the fundimentalists but we dare not follow them.

Here's a defination of certain fundamentalisms; which is what Querty has addressed here. Without having full disclosure of each truth, one believes that he does have full disclosure. What fanatical fundamentalism does, is this; it draws a circle around it's beliefs and idead and then calls that the full truth. It's good enough to kill for in some cases. It's good enough to judge others to the lake of fire in other cases. It's good enough to discard even close friends from one's fellowship in some cases. It's good enough to persecute other Chrsitian believers who believe differently on issues than myself. Finally it's good enough to push the state of Israel into the sea and then forget them.

Fanatical fundamentalism is horrible enough to do all the above. Fananical fundamentalism when it becomes visible and organized is a horrible thing indeed. It's the enemy of Holy God! It's chuck-full of conceit and for most part these fanatical groups deny this fact.

The early church was visible because the people involved were visible; it ends with that. The Truth they had was the risen and powerful Christ Jesus! They were not puffed up with an idea that they were the the people.

Men have legalized christianity. Men have organized christianity. Men have worshiped christianity. Men have made a religion out of christianity when Christ Jesus was meant to simply be a way of living! What He said was this! I am the Truth---the Way---and the Life! Indeed, visible people had this Jesus and in this way the church is visible!

We do well to run from those who have done the dark thing of fundamentalism among us, run quickly and run swiftly. Do not look back. The eye is worthy of a much higher thing! The plagues are captured in these type of things.

As to Christ Jesus, He cannot and will not be captured and domesticated by any form of fundamentalism.

This Christ, this risen Jesus is received by Faith by believing and contrite hearts! The risen and living Jesus is retained by falling in Love with Him! He will never let us go! He will never leave nor forsake those who Love him!

edited for clarity

I submit that Qwerty is the "tower of babble" come to life.

He sure is confusing! Isn't that what Babel means?

Sometimes he says OTVC is sectarion. Now he says that the 1st century church was the OTVC. Were they sectarian way back then already?

Sally

Sally:
>>>How would you say they were (1)visible, and (2)in unity in the first century that we're not today?

If you when to Ephesians you didn't have the choice of pentecostal, baptist, or gospel halls. Nor did you have the choice of Lutheran, Reformed, or Mennonite. There would have been congregations that were all in fellowship and all teaching the same thing. The church was one and it was visible. It was not broken all up into different sects.

Today there are 1000's of sects, all believing different things and with a range from it's ok to be gay to some of the more narrow groups like the R that if you don't come with them you are not saved.

>>>What I mean is that if we are going to argue against the OTVC, and we "agree that the new testament church was visible and all congregations were in unity in the first century," we need to show them why that can't be true today.

We don't need to show why it isn't or can't be we just need to look and see that it is. All kinds of people claiming to be against sects have taken to restore the church but all they did was create another sect that was more sectarian then those they accused of being sectarians.

My take is that the book of revelation is a history of the church (amillenium) and I would hold that the church is in the wilderness.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

In this same wilderness is the false church.

Rev 17:3-5 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The beast that goes its power from the dragon is the roman catholic system and this woman was the mother of many harlots which are all the false churches that come out after the reformation.

>>>Sometimes he says OTVC is sectarion. Now he says that the 1st century church was the OTVC. Were they sectarian way back then already?

Sect OTVC is sectarian. It make your sect a OTVC and then act bigoted towards others than don't agree with you is the very spirit of sectarianism. In the new testament time there was a OTVC and it is a biblical teaching. But there is not one now and to say your sect is an OTVC and try to gather everyone into that sect is not a good thing.


And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

>>Most would agree that the new testament church was visible and all congregations were in unity in the first century.<<

Define visible. Not really, since they had no church buildings, didn't stand out from average citizens by their clothing. They were known by their love for one another - which, I would posit, is not a visible characteristic per se.

As far as unity goes, that term also needs definition, since even a rather cursory reading of the NT shows a level of disagreement between different parties within Christianity. Yes, they agreed on some basic principles, but to claim that they were in unity in the first century is a rather shaky proposition, in my opinion.

Qwerty, is there any church in existence today that you would consider to be the "true church"?  If so, could you name it?  If not, do you consider all churches to be false?

Brent D
Qwerty, is there any church in existence today that you would consider to be the "true church"? If so, could you name it? If not, do you consider all churches to be false?

Well when we look at the 7 churches of Asia Minor that John wrote a letter to their messengers we see that 5 of them were not in good shape but they still had lamp stands.

Ephesus 2:1
left thy first love
fallen
repent or your lampstand will be removed

Smyrna 2:8
Good report

Pergamos 2:12
hold the doctrine of Balaam
hold the doctrine of Nicolaitanes
repent or I will fight against you with the sword of my mouth

Thyatira 2:18
allowed Jezebel to seduce God servants to commit fornication and eat things offered to idols
repent or Jezebel will be cast into a bed of suffering
repent or those that commit adultery Jezebel will be thrown into great tribulation

Sardis 3:1
hast a name that you live but are dead
called to repent

Philadelphia 3:7
Good report

Laodiceans 3:14
lukewarm
think you are rich and increased with good but are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, naked
called to repent

When a congregation has a lampstand then they are a congregation of God.

So I think there are many congregations that have lampstands.

I would consider any congregation that is teaching bible salvation from committing sin and equipping the people to give a victorious life over self, the flesh, sin and the devil has a lampstand.

I would question where any congregation has a lampstand that allows any minister to get behind their pulpit and teach you can sin and still be saved.

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.