Hank:
I think I know what you mean. I was very disappointed to see the judgmental attitude and intolerance in the early Anabaptist. The book I am reading gives excerpts for all kinds of early Anabaptist leaders.

I am currently reading on what they taught on visible commune from Peter Hoover's book The Secret of the Strength which you may find interesting.

On to Visibility

"Hans Hut wrote:
When there are a number of Christians who have gone the way of the cross, suffering, and sorrow, and who have gotten tied together in a covenant, they become one congregation and one body in Christ -- a visible commune.

In the Lord's commune all goodness, mercy, praise, glory, and honour appear in the Holy Spirit. All things are held in common: nothing is private property. . . . We prove our covenant by giving ourselves to Christ. We give ourselves to Christ by giving ourselves to the brothers and sisters. We give ourselves to them in body, life, property, and honour, regardless of how the world misunderstands us.1

Hans Schlaffer, also baptized and ordained by Hans Hut, wrote:
Because God, through his Son Jesus Christ, is again raising up a visible, holy, Christian commune in these last and dangerous times, he wants it to become apparent in the world through the outward sign of water baptism . . .

Menno Simons wrote:
The visible commune must be sound in teaching and sacraments. The commune must be irreproachable in life before the world, as far as man who is able to see only the outward, can tell. . . . The true commune of Christ is made manifest among this wicked generation in words and work. She can no more be hidden than a city on a hill or a candle on a candlestick.

Dirk Philips wrote:
God's commune is not like Franck says, just an invisible fellowship of believers. The very term ecclesia (those who are called out) proves that. God's commune is not invisible. The apostles, according to the command of Jesus and by the power of Christian baptism, gathered a community of believers out of all nations. Theirs was not an invisible community. The apostles did not address their letters in a general or indiscriminate way to all people. They specifically named the congregations and the people to whom they wrote."

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Interesting stuff Querty.

Fellowship itself cannot be seen, it's a thing in one's heart toward another heart. It's Spiritual.

If we have this with one another, others may perceive by the outward gathering together of ourselves that the Spiritual thing is present among us and call us a certain fellowship at a certain physical address!

The actual and real fellowship of the saints is not visible. This cannot be effectively challenged.

The people are indeed visible who fellowship at the invisable level. The church is visible only because believers are visible at the present time, for the church is merely the collection of believers who are called out of darkness and into His light!

Why is this so hard to travel through, unless of course at some level somebody is trying to establish borders and control?

Do not be deceived by the power brokers. Wall Street can lead main street into poverty and away from our well-being without proper checks and balances.

In my opinion Christianity is not really Christianity unless it's free Christianity! We're called into freedom for freedom, it says.

Qwerty; I have never suggested that MS or DP did not believe that church(es) (or true believers) are visible. Where CGCM went off the track is :

1. That they and they alone are the ONE true visible church.

2. They left off of previous understanding that ALL who believe are the (invisible) assembly that Christ gathers to Himself.( Matt. 16). All the writings of MS & DP (who CGCM claims where Leaders of the true church in the 16th century) point to this position, and as late as 1951 was the position of CGCM.

The position that H have taken firstly, does not line up with those who they say they are following; and secondly, it creates a special status for them which, in my opinion detracts from faith in Jesus Christ and places the focus on themselves.

I do not dispute anyone's right (in fact it is our Christian duty) to testify to the truth of scripture as we understand it and to correct others who become heretical. However, our first responsibility always is to point to Jesus Christ who is equally available to all who come to Him with an honest heart of faith and that such faith places a believer into the (invisible) assembly of Christ. Any other position, as I see it, is exaltation of one's own faith, that is to say... "we have arrived and others have not".

Hank:
>>>Qwerty; I have never suggested that MS or DP did not believe that church(es) (or true believers) are visible.

Just so you know Hank I wasn't implying that you had.



And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

The subject of being "nice" to the victim of the atrocious lies and treachery held by the power brokers in the ministry of the H, is that to them, you must not speak at all if it is contrary to political correctness.

You cannot possibly call them on the fact that they are holding a job that the bible clearly puts them fully under the authority of adult members of the local church, but they have with treachery and lies used the office and political means of legal incorporation, to make a central government to oppress anyone that dares stand against them.

To call them lying hoodoo practicing witchdoctors

Or to say misdirected abusive truth vacant clerics whose practices are similar to those found in the tribes in Hati that use the dark arts to rule their victims.

To me it matters not, for if you are using the dark arts like they do, you know it, and if you are an H cleric, you are not going to stop for love nor money, because that is the reward you got out of the deception that got you elected in the first place. Sure there may possibly at least in theory actually be some H leaders that are "saved", but if they are saved, they also know where they compromise to stay H, and that will only come to a "head" by truth, and truth simply doesn't to have to be "nice" by adding sugar, it simply needs to be true.

I am a simple man, and a busy man, My wife is into therapeutic oils for healing and they are kinda cool, and do a great job when they work.

When I get sick though I take a little 'herbal fiberblend. This stuff has to have a patent on the worse possible taste known to man. I mean it simply can't taste worse and still be able to be swallowed.

But her oils with the pretty smells and all simply don't do an inward cleansing to purge the gross stuff out, like the fiberblend does.

We had a relative that was sick off and on for almost a year, so we finally bought her a bottle of that gross tasting stuff and in two weeks she quit being sick.

My point is who cares about the frill and the aroma, when something on the inside is evil and needs purged?

Fred:
It is my opinion that you are very much overboard in the things you have said about the H ministers even to the degree that I feel like it distracts from your credibility and makes people wonder whether you are level minded. This causes the effectiveness of your message to decrease.

While I don't agree with the things you say about voodoo and witchcraft I can stomach them but some of them things you have said about sperm have been outlandish and have caused me to question whether you are even saved.

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Fred, say it like it is so long as you keep your love for all men intact.

Indeed it's not how we say something but rather it's what we say and the reason we speak.

To love each and every man is what God gifts us to do. Some are harder to love than are others.

A friend of mine in La. where I once lived told me something insightful one afternoon. He said; Doug I love you, it takes God, but I love you!

qwerty, you crack me up.

There is no way to describe their spiritual fornication in your rule book. And if anyone tries they get to be "not saved" in your book.

You want people to describe spiritual fornication and planting the seed of their filthy idolatrous conference built idolatry into a man's heart, without using the kings English.

okay, lets see you explain what I felt without saying it like I say it and still bring out the filth and horror of the experience?

Fred:
>>>There is no way to describe their spiritual fornication in your rule book. And if anyone tries they get to be "not saved" in your book.

You should know this is not true Fred. I hold spiritual fornication can be stated as it is in the Bible but not with the graphic details that you have posted on this forum. To me the kind of language you have used in the past shows a coarseness and makes me question your heart condition.

>>>You want people to describe spiritual fornication and planting the seed of their filthy idolatrous conference built idolatry into a man's heart, without using the kings English.

No the Bible calls you to be moderate in your language and to let no corrupt communication proceed from your mouth and in meekness and love to instruct those that are in error peradventure God will give them repentance and they may acknowledge the truth that you have spoken (2Tim 2:25).

>>>okay, lets see you explain what I felt without saying it like I say it and still bring out the filth and horror of the experience?

I don't feel like I want to do that have not come to the same conclusions as you have. In most cases I have not heard both sides of the story so I have to give the H ministry the benefit of the doubt. I do this with R ministry where I have even heard both sides of the story in a number of cases.

We have to be careful that we show love to these dear souls who we think are in the wrong and are doing others wrong and have done us wrong. We must give no room for bitterness, mocking, insulting, coarse, abusive, and derisive talk.

We should state the facts as we see them and leave the readings of their motives out for these are subjective. If we should a worse attitude they we accuse them of have how can the Spirit of God use our Words to heal. The Biblical idea to reprove and rebuke is to heal not to maim.

Another important issue is that in the same way we judge others the Lord will judge us (Mat 7:2). We are all human and very imperfect in our discerning of the motives of others. So true Christian love calls us to put the best face on what others do even if what they have done has hurt us and ours.

We are not to behave ourselves unseemly but we are to think no evil, to suffer long with the wrongs we think we see in others, to bear all things, endure all things and believe the best we can of others (1Cor 13:1-7). Thereby showing those who have transgressed against us some thing better. When we answer railing with railing, charge with charge as to a persons motives, when we talk disparing about them we are not showing them they are wrong but leaving them in their error and not only not showing them something better but showing them something worse.

This is one of the things God has shown me very clearly with my dealings with the R and in the wrong they have done to me. I have not railed on them but with love and best wishes I have called them to repentance and clearly laid out their sin. Here is a sample from my Sect OTVC: Bubble, Babble, Babel article of my call to repentance to the ministers and members of the R.

"I want to express my love to my Christian friends of some odd 20 years that are in the Church of God Restoration (COGR) group.
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I love you all dearly but at the same time I must exhort you to not be bigoted and sectarian in your spirit by refusing to accept me as a Christian based on the false reports you have received from the COGR ministry. If you have given into this sectarian and bigoted spirit I call you to repentance for this sin.

Don't be misled by just a few short quotes you have been read from the 5 page letter I send to Henry Hildebrandt. You can only get the context by reading the whole letter.

Don't allow the COGR ministers that the Bible has called to be your servants to exercise Gentile type lordship over you (Mar 10:42) with intimation and spiritual threats to cast you out of the body of Christ if you don't obey them.

Put Jesus first and obey him no matter what any man claims he can do to you. Keep in mind that none of the COGR messengers (angels) can separate you from the love of God (Rom 8:38, 39). Don't believe their false claim to have the keys to the body of Christ. Only sin can put you out of the body of Christ and disobedience to teachings, standards, or rules that are unbiblical and setup by well meaning ministers are not sin no matter what those ministers say.

Don't believe their reports that you are told with out checking them out first. Stand on the Word that clearly teaches us to not follow the example of "the simple" that "believeth every word" (Pro 14:15). Be prudent and don't "answereth a matter" (Pro 18:13) before looking into it, knowing that "he that is first in his own cause seemeth just" (Pro 18:17).

I also want to express a heart full of love toward you COGR ministers who in error cast me out of the fellowship here in Aylmer.

I pray for you regularly and by the grace of God I have nothing but love in my heart for your souls. This love constrains me to warn you that you may be recovered from your confusion.

I publicly call the four ordained ministers from the Church of God Restoration, Henry Hildebrandt, Danny Layne, Ray Tinsmen, and my dear wife Susan Mutch, to repentance for your sin of sectarianism and bigotry for your agreement and action of casting me out of the Church of God Restoration assemblies and slandering my good Christian name but telling the members of that movement I am not saved based on the contents of my letter to Henry Hildbrandt which contained my 16 objectives to COGR practices and doctrines.

May God have mercy on your souls and it is my hope that you have committed these sins in ignorance and that our merciful God will not impute these sins to you."

Now Fred if they are honest which method do you really think will work to recover them. Railing and abusive language or a Biblical call to repentance?

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.