I have been finding the SOS book interesting and informative as it introduces the reader to many Anabaptist writers.

It also helped me to see their very judgmental and harsh attitude.

In the chapter in SOS on visibility where Hoover deal with the sacraments I found examples of extreme harshness that really helped me.

Lately (even before I realized how harsh Menno and Dirk where) I found my self toning down much of what I write. I have been doing this toning down in my blog and especially in the articles I have written on OTVC and I have been doing it here in my posts on this forum.

As I have read SOS I have seen some very harsh and intolerant statements made and they have been a good example to me of how not to deal with others.

Here are some examples:

"To this, Dirk Philips replied:
Something horrible is coming up like smoke from the depths of the pit to hide the brightness of the sun. This is Sebastian Franck's teaching that the holy rites instituted by Christ are no longer important, and that they are like a baby's things and child's play. Franck says the visible sacraments are weak elements, and no longer necessary. . . . To this coarse blasphemy I reply: Who has ever written so shamefully of the holy rites as Sebastian Franck? Shall God permit the devil to do with the sacraments whatever he wants?
It is an unendurable blasphemy for Sebastian Franck, a scorner of God and the sacraments, to look upon the first Christians as children who played with rag dolls, while he claims to have reached spiritual manhood. As if Jesus Christ, the apostles, and the first Christians did not have the Holy Spirit because they used outward elements in connection with faith! What abominable presumption and blindness! A man contradicting Christ and rejecting his rites. What foolishness of heart!"

"Menno Simons wrote:
Do not say, as some do, "I will renounce the (state) church and idolatry, I will serve my neighbour, etc., but I do not wish to be baptized." Oh you blind men! Do you think the Lord is pleased if you reject his counsel and Word? No. He desires obedience and not sacrifices."

"Dirk Philips wrote:
I must warn my brothers and sisters against proud despisers of the commands of Christ -- men who have no regard for baptism, which Christ himself instituted, which the apostles so earnestly practiced, and to which the holy writings give such a prominent place. The nighttime meal is of no significance to them."


"Menno Simons wrote:
If we do not perform the nighttime meal and baptism, or if we perform them differently from what God has commanded, we have by our disobedience neither covenant nor promise. Whoever teaches you differently deceives your soul."

This is all quoted from chapter 15 of SOS.
On to Visibility

Above they use terms like "coarse blasphemy", "scorner of God", "foolishness of heart", "blind men", "proud despisers", and "deceiver your soul".

This indeed is very harsh language to use toward others that you disagree with. While I am a strong believer in baptism and foot washing I couldn't call others such harsh names if they disagreed with me.

I have been finding myself many times corrected by the Lord when I written harsh things about others that would hold the blood of Christ can do no better than to the sinning and repenting experience of Romans 7.

Here is a better way to write about others. The first clause is from the above quotes and the second clause is what they could have used to convey what they were saying with out appearing to be so harsh, condemning, and arrogant.

to this coarse blasphemy || to this unscriptural position
scorner of God || dishonoring to God
foolishness of heart || lacking proper judgment
blind men || not clearly understanding
proud despisers of the commands || not taking serious the commandments
deceiver your soul || leading you in a wrong way

I am seeing those these kinds of condemning statements are not proper and if they don't come from an arrogant heart the statements themselves appear to be arrogant.

When we are writing to others are aim should be to correct them in meekness and love. We want to be careful that we are not more of a hindrance that a help to them. When we correct others we want to win them not insult them and further alienate them from what we consider the truth.

Now I realize that Jesus and others in the New Testament used strong language toward those that were in sin and especially those that were hypocrites but I have referring to other professing Christians and disagree with us in what we teach.

Any one can stir up the devil. Any one can rail on others. But it takes wisdom in words to correct and point out what we consider faults in a way that will win people and not alienate.

I have made some of these points to Fred at different times concerning the way he rails on the H ministers but I am now seeing this in a deeper way. There are also others here that appear to rail on and condemn others over nothing. I have also seen a lot of this being down in the writings of the R.

Those that rail on others and and use disparing language need to check their hearts for arrogance. I know I am checking my heart right now and believe the Lord has revealed something to me that I didn't know was there. Glory!


Arrogance -- offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride.
Arrogant -- making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud:

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Hank I want to apologize to you for the harsh and seemingly arrogant way I have spoken in some of our posts back and forth of late. I feel like the way I said some things were over the edge and would have not helped you to see my position but were more of a hindrance that a help. For this I am truly sorry and repent.

I also want to apologize to any one else on this board that I have acted harsh or arrogant towards.

These good examples from Menno and Dirk of how not to deal with others have been a big help to me.

While I don't want to make excuses for myself this kind of harsh language is very much the culture of most of the Church of God groups that have spawned from D.S. Warner's come out movement.

May God help us all to deal with each other in a way that becometh the meek and lowly spirit of Jesus.

Here are some scriptures to mediate on concerning this issue:

1Co 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Col 3:12, 13 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Eph 4:2, 3 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

2Ti 2:24, 25 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Tit 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing all meekness unto all men.

Jas 3:13-17 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

I agree with you Qwerty, I have always found it rather repulsive the way Menno Simons spoke of those he disagreed with. I have always thought it set the tone for the angry way that the Holdemans speak of those who disagree with them today. However, Jesus was very harsh with the Pharisees, calling them a generation of vipers and whited sepulchers. How do you feel about that?

Just a minute folks; we must realize that the religious writings of that era were different then today. I suggest that we must read them with different glasses; they were not meant to be as arrogant as it may appear.

I read them for "doctrinal content" and not for tone or mannerism.

Qwerty, obviously I disagree with your statement, for the scripture clearly states to "rebuke them before all, that others might fear.

And: to answer a fool in his folly lest thou be like unto him.

Effeminate niceness is what I want my wife to give me after a hard day at work, for I married her to have a female touch in my life. But I want the men in my life to be men, to stand like men, to punch like men, to fight like men, and to talk like men. After you get done talking to the men your life they probably walk away from you and wonder what you just said. Few people misunderstand my words, if I give them.

mutterlode:
>>>However, Jesus was very harsh with the Pharisees, calling them a generation of vipers and whited sepulchers. How do you feel about that?

Well I addressed that in the original post.

<<<Now I realize that Jesus and others in the New Testament used strong language toward those that were in sin and especially those that were hypocrites but I have referring to other professing Christians and disagree with us in what we teach.

For one Jesus could see into there hearts and he was deal with a class of people that were wicked. I was referring to how you deal with others that disagree with you on doctrine.

Hank:
>>>Just a minute folks; we must realize that the religious writings of that era were different then today.

Well are you saying that is was more acceptable to call others and their positions "coarse blasphemy", "scorner of God", "foolishness of heart", "blind men", "proud despisers", and "deceiver your soul"?

That seems to be the same argument that is used to justify the the way Calvin, Luther, and Zwingle deal with the Anabaptist. I for one don't buy it.

>>>I suggest that we must read them with different glasses; they were not meant to be as arrogant as it may appear.

I don't think Menno and Dirk thought they were arrogant at all and most people that are arrogant don't think they are.

How ever to use these kinds of terms toward other believers or to say others are not believers because doctrinally they don't agree with you on non-essentials is the same attitude that we find in the R.

Now I have not seen this kind of rhetoric in the H writings but then again I have not read much of what they have written. I plan on Lord willing looking up some of Warner's rhetoric and some from the R rhetoric also and posting it here.

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Fred:
>>>Qwerty, obviously I disagree with your statement, for the scripture clearly states to "rebuke them before all, that others might fear.

I have no problem "them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear" (1Tim 5:20). But when you rebuke someone that doesn't mean you have to use disparing rhetoric like Menno and Dirk did.

You won't see any of this when Paul rebuked Peter (Gal 2:11-14). He said things like "he was to be blamed", "carried away with their dissimulation", "walked not uprightly". This I think was very acceptable.

But them I don't think we don't need to disparing rhetoric and call them and their position "coarse blasphemy", "scorner of God", "foolishness of heart", "blind men", "proud despisers", and "deceiver your soul" over the issue of whether to baptism and have the Lords supper or not.

When John reproved Diotrephes for not accepting some of the brethren and casting those that did out of the congregation (3Joh 1:9, 10) the word he used were not like Menno's or Drik's. The most forward John said was that they "prating against us with malicious words".

When Paul spoke of Alexander the coppersmith to Timothy all he said was that "did me much evil" (2Tim 4:14) he didn't rail on him with the kind of rhetoric that Menno and Dirk used.

There are many examples of rebukes to different ones in the New Testament that didn't have this kind of rhetoric.

I think the conduct of Christ is a different subject. Jesus could see the heart of the people.

>>>And: to answer a fool in his folly lest thou be like unto him.

This is a good verse and I am glad you brought it up.

Pro 26:4, 5 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

The reason not to answer a fool according to his folly is clearly state as "lest thou be like unto him". We are not imitate a fool in the way he speaks. Fools will speak insulting, coarsely, undignified, make personal attacks, use obscene language, be abusive, and will be derision, contemptuous and mocking.

>>>Effeminate niceness is what I want my wife to give me after a hard day at work, for I married her to have a female touch in my life. But I want the men in my life to be men, to stand like men, to punch like men, to fight like men, and to talk like men. After you get done talking to the men your life they probably walk away from you and wonder what you just said. Few people misunderstand my words, if I give them.

To punch, fight, and talk like men? Well Christian men don't punch and fight physically or with their mouth. And Christian men don't allow corrupt communication (Eph 4:26) to come out of there mouths but words that minister grace unto the hearers even when they are reproving and rebuking.

While I feel like there is more room to be blunt with deceivers, as Jesus was with the Pharisees, I don't think we need to speak insulting, coarsely, undignified, abusive, derisive, or be contemptuous, mocking, use obscene language, or make personal attacks.


And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Querty;

Harsh language is meant to intimidate others. Todays courts call this verbal abuse. It doesn't matter who has done this in history, there's better ways of communicating Truth. Language is a poor enough way of communicating without making it worse on purpose.

It is indeed foolish to allow a man who has a foolish premise to draw us into his conservation, no matter how insulting or intimdating he gets.

In conversation, to come from a premise of detail rather than from the premise of basics is something that no christian believer should be drawn into. Nor should any christian believer initiate such conversation. Nor should any christian believer ponder in such a premise. We cause our own problems!

This is like coming from the premise of adding to Grace those things of performance and law. Gal.3 to Gal.5. Do not enter the conversation except to speak of His life which is well able to walk itself out in us, that's my exhortation.

The Truth of Christ Jesus is what we contend for, is it not? Or do we contend for our special ideas because we have special needs?

Truth has a way of coming to the top without intimidation or slander. We are either in the flesh with true things or we are in the Spirit with Truth. The Spirit of God speaks boldly and expressly but not slanderousely or intimidatingly.

"Some of you say you are of Apollos and others of Peter and yet others of Paul". Forget that mess, we are of Christ Jesus!

doug:
>>>Harsh language is meant to intimidate others. Todays courts call this verbal abuse. It doesn't matter who has done this in history, there's better ways of communicating Truth. Language is a poor enough way of communicating without making it worse on purpose.

I think harsh language is from a lack or love or understanding or from arrogance and perhaps from all three.

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.