Brent, Rather than hijack the production thread I'll answer here.

You asked,

Is that all the more your kingdom is, just a belief????

No, it is not JUST a belief...it IS belief.

We were never promised a literal physical kingdom with trees skipping and dancing. Jesus never came to rule this physical world. In fact he even declared "his kingdom was not of this world".

The reason the Jews missed Jesus first coming is the same reason most christians have missed his second coming.

Both have insisted on a literal physical kingdom. We look back with awe and amazement and wonder why couldn't and can't the Jews see that Jesus was or is the messiah. Their main reason is because he never established an earthly kingdom which was their interpretation of the scriptures.

The christians today are basically back in that same camp. They insist on having a literal physical kingdom. Sorry to say, One that will never manifest or materialize. Hence they miss out on so much because they are spending their time looking into the future the same way the Jews did and totally miss out on today and what is available here and now.

The premillenial rapture teaching is less than 200 years old yet it is the most widely accepted and unchallenged belief in Christianity today. It is a "sacred cow" teaching. It is also the goose that lays the golden egg. It is a huge money maker.

This is the government that needs to be brought down because it has done the most damage to unsuspecting, gullible believers and might I add, unbelievers . It has set itself up as the authority and it dares anyone to challenge it and will make mince meat of those that do.

I really don't care so much about bringing down earthly governments (which includes spiritual governments) as I do showing people how to become free from governments who enslave people spiritually. I will die on that hill if necessary...freedom is never free. Someone has to be willing to pay the price.

"his kingdom was not of this world"

Mark, I got this far and quit reading. Maybe I'll read the rest of your post later.

But in the meantime you better go check and see if the "world" and "time" end at the same time.

Brent

"The teachings that Jesus will come back to establish a literal kingdom is less than 200 years old "

Err umm, you might want to edit your post a little and add another zero to that number, unless you don't mind telling fibs.

"The teachings that Jesus will come back to establish a literal kingdom is less than 200 years old "

Err umm, you might want to edit your post a little and add another zero to that number, unless you don't mind telling fibs.


Thanks for pointing that out. I knew what I was trying to say but had two different thoughts going on at the same time.

I edited it to say what I meant.

*"The christians today are basically back in that same camp. They insist on having a literal physical kingdom. Sorry to say, One that will never manifest or materialize. Hence they miss out on so much because they are spending their time looking into the future the same way the Jews did and totally miss out on today and what is available here and now.

The premillenial rapture teaching is less than 200 years old yet it is the most widely accepted and unchallenged belief in Christianity today. It is a "sacred cow" teaching. It is also the goose that lays the golden egg. It is a huge money maker.

This is the government that needs to be brought down because it has done the most damage to unsuspecting, gullible believers and might I add, unbelievers . It has set itself up as the authority and it dares anyone to challenge it and will make mince meat of those that do."*




Keep talking Mark. I am listening.



***Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, ***

Mark,

This morning I read the rest of your post.

Mark writes, "This is the government that needs to be brought down because it has done the most damage to unsuspecting, gullible believers and might I add, unbelievers . It has set itself up as the authority and it dares anyone to challenge it and will make mince meat of those that do."

If believers are that stuck on a literal kingdom, then your kingdom is going to have to make "mince meat" out of them to bring it down. They won't give it up any other way. There'll be a literal kingdom one way or another, whether it's a self fulfilled one or the real one. And you're kingdom don't have the power or authority to bring either one of them down. It's all talk and no go. You can't even stop or convince a few people on the Internet.

And if you're going to play footsy with it all your life so you can feel yourself and don't have to put your belief on the line, those that believe like you at some point in time are going to have to do the dirty work for all the rest of you so you can all stay pure and so that the literal kingdom don't overtake the world. Because some literal manifestation of the scriptures is coming down the world like a fright train. What that is, true or false, is not the issue, because there will be a real shadow as a kingdom on this earth.

Brent

Brent,

If believers are that stuck on a literal kingdom, then your kingdom is going to have to make "mince meat" out of them to bring it down.

Not true. That is the beauty of of understanding the sovereignty that God gave each man. You don't have to bring it down. Just begin to think and live differently and when enough people understand it, the old will pass away silently.

They won't give it up any other way.

What happens when they have no subjects that subject themselves to them anymore? They give it up by default.

And you're kingdom don't have the power or authority to bring either one of them down.

I have never claimed to have such power and am not delusional enough to believe it either.

And if you're going to play footsy with it all your life so you can feel yourself and don't have to put your belief on the line, those that believe like you at some point in time are going to have to do the dirty work for all the rest of you so you can all stay pure and so that the literal kingdom don't overtake the world.

When will you understand that the kingdom I speak of, is an individual spiritual kingdom? It is not EVER going to be a literal kingdom overtaking the world.

Because some literal manifestation of the scriptures is coming down the world like a fright train. What that is, true or false, is not the issue, because there will be a real shadow as a kingdom on this earth.

That statement is a religious belief that has been propagated for centuries. You gotta let it go! There is no substance to it.

Whenever any of the five senses are used, it only verifies the limitation of it's reality. The things of substance are eternal...the five senses are never utilized. With your kingdom on earth theory, the five senses need to be used, therefore assuring it's limitation. The kingdom of which I speak has no limitations. So you and I are not even on the same page when we talk of kingdoms.

"So you and I are not even on the same page when we talk of kingdoms."

Mark,

Indeed we have fell off the same page.

What was you assuming about my belief?

There's only one way a kingdom on earth can be, and that's in limitation. And that includes you own religious kingdom to, Mark.

Aren't you claiming your kingdom now? Aren't you on the earth? Don't that make it a "kingdom on earth theory"? How are you going to make your earthly kingdom eternal?

The kingdom I speak of is a mere 1000 years long, and then it ends. I never said it went on for eternity on this earth. I haven't mismatched and crisscrossed temporal and eternal things like you have.

You say enough people understanding your kingdom will bring it in because the old will pass silently away. Where will your kingdom be manifested at when enough people understand it? Here, or in eternity, or both? If it's here on earth, its just a belief yet like you said, and O well, anybody can have a belief. What is the belief for? What is its power?

Mark, my point is, if your kingdom is on this earth now, it has limitation. And if you kingdom is eternal, it now has limitation on this earth, and nothing eternal has limitation.

Mark, here's a brief outline of what I believe about the earthly kingdom. The world will end, but time will go on for a 1000 more year, and then time will be no more. From that point, eternal will take over. During that 1000 years, man will be able to live close to a 1000 years {man uses to live about that long on earth before, if you don't believe it, search the scriptures}, and Jesus will literally rein during that time {Jesus was here on earth before, so I suppose he can live here again, and if you don't believe it, search the scriptures}.

The scripture say, the increase of Jesus' government and peace, will be upon the throne of David to order the kingdom and establish it with judgment and with justice. Search the scriptures.

Now Mark, I'm going to pull a Paul! According to scriptures this is what I believe. But it is also possible. I haven't grayed eternal and temporal things. I haven't blurred visual and spiritual things.

How much do I believe it? This is still an honest question with me, I don't deny it. That phrase by Paul has tried me many times. Even a towering figure like Paul in spiritual matters, had to use that term. The term, "According to scriptures", opens up the door to doubt. It's like that's all it could be, just according to scripture, just a belief, nothing else, nothing more!!!

Brent

Brent,
You make interesting observations and ask honest questions. I don't know if one response to your post can do justice cause you asked so many questions. I will respond as soon I can but I need to get to bed and get some sleep. We are traveling to Nashville tomorrow and will try to respond along the way when I get time and a wi-fi connection. If my responses are sporadic this weekend it's because we will be very busy with family and I don't know how much time I'll have to respond.

BTW, I appreciate that you are making this thought provoking yet enjoyable.

Bumped for Mark

Correct me if I am wrong Mark; but did you not some time ago refer us to a web site that defined your understanding, which said there will be no return of Christ to this world. I noted above , you also said people HAVE missed his first AND second return. What and when was the second return ?

Nov. 24, 7:42 AM; "The reason the Jews missed Jesus first coming is the same reason most christians have missed his second coming."

Mark, What you are saying with your "kingdom of belief" seems to fit into the Kingdom message. Where the unseen is more real than the seen. For the unseen (invisible) Kingdom of God birthed the seen (visible, earth) And Man is unseen (spirit) in a seen (body). Or just how does this fit into your "kingdom of belief"?

"2 Corinthians 4:18 (King James Version)

18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Anyone? What does the church do with this verse?

"Mark, What you are saying with your "kingdom of belief" seems to fit into the Kingdom message. Where the unseen is more real than the seen. For the unseen (invisible) Kingdom of God birthed the seen (visible, earth) And Man is unseen (spirit) in a seen (body). Or just how does this fit into your "kingdom of belief"?

"2 Corinthians 4:18 (King James Version)

18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Anyone? What does the church do with this verse?"

Vine.

I see a little bit of a problem with the way you're using this verse.

Because what you believe and claim about the kingdom now cannot be classified as unseen. If there's a kingdom now or in the future on earth, it quits at eternity, and the scriptures do not teach two kingdoms.

I don't see how you can have a kingdom now acting as an unseen or eternal kingdom when whatever that is will dissolve at eternity, or will be transferred into eternity like it is now. Because what you believe about the unseen now, better be eternal.

Brent

That would seem to support that the church is not the same thing as the Kingdom.

And what about the "My kingdom is not of this world."?

"Upon this rock I will build my church" Does this split the seen and the unseen? If one were to look at the unseen as more real than what we see, the realm, does not split into two kingdoms but one. One where the kingdom is being established from the unseen into the seen realm.

I have no sure answers, just searching the scriptures...

Just got home from a long and busy holiday and it's past midnight. I will try to respond to your questions tomorrow. I am tired from being on the road and I need to be rested and ready for work.

Brent & Hank

I am going to start with reasons why I think a lot of people think the coming of Jesus is literal.

Verses such as Acts 1:9...and a cloud received him out of their sight...
verse 11 ...this same Jesus which is taken up from you shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven.
Luke 21: 27 and then shall they see the son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory,
Matt 24:30...son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,
Rev 1:7 behold he cometh with clouds...

These verses all give the illusion of seeing with the physical eyes a return of Christ.


People usually overlook that the first century Christ followers believed they were living in the last days/last times/latter days, etc.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son
James 5:8 for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
James 5:9 behold, the judge standeth before the door.
1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Rev 1:1 which must shortly come to pass;
Rev 1:3 for the time [is] at hand.

The reason they believed it was because of what Jesus told them.

Matt 24:30-34 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The all things of vs 34 include his coming in the clouds

Because we insist on a literal interpretation we think it has not happened yet. Since we know Jesus spoke the truth, then the nature of his coming is different from what mainstream christianity teaches today.

I will now get back to Clouds and coming in the clouds. The redundancy of their use gives a clue that cloud means more than just vaporized water.

And sure enough, with a little bit of digging one can find its usage in the Old Testament.

Joel 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness,

Zeph 1:15 That day [is] a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Jer 4:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots [shall be] as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. ( the context of this is Jeremiah's prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem at the hand of the Babylonians in 586 or 587 BC)

Ezek 30:3 For the day [is] near, even the day of the LORD [is] near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen. (this is a prophecy of God's judgment on heathen nations)

Note the usage of, the Day of the Lord, Cloudy Day the same verbiage he used when speaking of Jerusalem's various judgments.

Jesus audience knew what he meant when he used the word clouds.

Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 should not be divided between the destruction of Jerusalem and the coming of Jesus. He lumps them together. No wonder He could say this to Peter about the death of John in John 21:22 If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? John lived past the coming of Jesus,(the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD). This is another reason why Peter one of the early Christ followers, could write in his letter 1 Pet 4:2 The end of all things is at hand... The whole chapter of 2 Pet 3.

This whole thing started about a Kingdom of Belief. Here is where I want to point out that Jesus said in Matt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of Belief begins with ...whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

There is overwhelming evidence that Revelation was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Since it speaks of events being at hand and things which must shortly come to pass we can be assured those things described in John's vision happened a long time ago including the last 3 chapters.

It's difficult to let go of our expectation of a problem free life (borrowing from Lion King), "hakuna matata" world of a 1000 year literal reign of Christ.






We expect a world the way we would imagine the Garden of Eden. We forget that evil, and the law of consequence existed there. They are both still a part of the all things made new...

When I first came to this understanding I had to deal with the question, Is this all we get? As I began to really deal with this question, I understood Yes! A thousand times YES! We get ALL this.

Every promise in the Bible is ours to have...If you CAN believe it!

Vine,

Yes

Mark,

It would take a religious education to get through all that, which has to be overcome anyway. And we all get a religious education at birth. And one religious education is enough to overcome.

Your post is the work of a coppersmith.

Brent

"When I first came to this understanding I had to deal with the question, Is this all we get? As I began to really deal with this question, I understood Yes! A thousand times YES! We get ALL this.

Every promise in the Bible is ours to have...If you CAN believe it!"

Mark,

Then why don't you have it? Is the kingdom all the bad things that happen to you? Is the kingdom when you get sick? Is the kingdom your job? Is the kingdom your sore throat? Is this what you desire? The Bible promises better things than that, so why don't you have them?

Everyday the boundaries of your flesh are retracting. If you don't believe it, then lift up your wings like a eagle.

Brent

Mark, I think you have presented your theory pretty well for us to understand, but what happens to man (and his soul) after he has taken his/her last breath and his body returns to dust ?

Brent,
one religious education is enough to overcome.

LOL Isn't that the truth!!!

Brent,

Then why don't you have it? Is the kingdom all the bad things that happen to you? Is the kingdom when you get sick? Is the kingdom your job? Is the kingdom your sore throat? Is this what you desire? The Bible promises better things than that, so why don't you have them?

We live in a realm within the law of consequences. You can choose to live in a realm where it is life giving or within the realm where the choices are good or where your choices are evil. The buffet is free for the taking. You have the freedom to choose. We also are not promised a problem free life but we are promised that Jesus will walk with us through them. Our responses to difficulty shows us where we are eating from.

As I see it, we can fall on the rock and willingly be broken or be obstinate and let the rock fall on us and be crushed. Either way you will go through the wringer...you have a choice whether it's head first or feet first. It's much easier head first.

Hank,
We will transition into the next realm. The bible says, we return to the creator who made us. I have no memory of ever being there so where that is and what that entails I'm not 100 % sure. I just know it's going to be good!

I personally believe this experience we have on earth is a testing place and we transition at the level with which we learned here. No scripture to back it up, I just know nothing is wasted in God's economy and he let's us take all the time we need to learn our lessons.

Mark, you strike me as a man that thinks he's finished his belief.

You know Mark, Christian atheism is a terrible religion. And no, that term is not a paradox. The Bible speaks profusely of what the kingdom and eternal life is. There's nothing else to do with it but believe it or not believe it. And from one's belief or disbelief, live life accordingly, which if done honestly, will make your life righteous and wise.

Belief has no advantage over disbelief if one is true in their disbelief. Because how else can you live but by what you understand and know at the time. Disbelief can't harm you then. Disbelief can lead you to truth just as well as belief. It all has to come full circle anyway, including belief. All one has to do is quit lying to themselves and quit pursuing a belief that suits them.

If religious people would face their beliefs and be honest with them, they would see things get spiritual long before they get religious. They would begin to see religion is hardly part of it at all.

Brent

Brent,

you strike me as a man that thinks he's finished his belief.

I don't intend to come across that way because that is not the way it is and neither would I want it that way. I am constantly learning and adjusting. Life's lessons never stop.

Hopefully there are a few lessons that I've learned along the way that won't have to be repeated.

No, I am a work in process. Life would be dull if there was nothing new to experience or learn.

There's nothing else to do with it but believe it or not believe it. And from one's belief or disbelief, live life accordingly, which if done honestly, will make your life righteous and wise.

Uhmmm, I think we're saying the same thing. It all boils down to being a kingdom of belief.

What you believe, determines your action, and your actions, determine your consequences.