Sin-You-Must -- This teaching holds that a person will continue to commit sin after being saved and that as a believer you will sin in word, thought, and deed almost daily. Teachers of this doctrine say that we should try not to sin but that sinning and repenting is the reality of living in this flesh.

Most would teach that if you commit a serious sin like fornication or adultery you would fall out of fellowship with God. If you would continued committing serious sins like those you might loose your salvation but for the most part they teach you can sin and still be a child of God. They hold that the Christian can't expect to be completely free from sin until they die or when they get a glorified body at the return of Christ.

Those that teach this doctrine hold that you will commit "willful sins" and what they call "unwillful sins" like errors, faults, and mistakes in opinion or conduct or anything short of the full fruit of the Spirit. In doing this they make the word sin to include willful sins and errors and frailty of humanity that all Christians experience. Under this mixed definition of sin they then claim that no one can live free from sin.

With this definition of sin this teaching ends up making an dangerous allowance for willful sinning under the guise of we are all human and have faults and nobody is perfect. Under the New Testament, sin is a willful transgression against a known commandment of God (Jam 4:17) and you must be tempted and give into temptation before you sin (Jam 1:14, 15).

Sin always includes a warning from God when it is presented, an act of the will to be committed, and condemnation when fallen into. Sin is not something that can happen without you knowing about it, nor is it mistakes or frailty of humanity like worrying, irritation, or lacking patience. While frailties of humanity can lead to sin if we don't look to God for grace, in and of themselves they are not sins.

Willful sin brings spiritual death and separation from God (Gen 2:17; Eph 2:1), sears and harms the conscience (1Tim 4:2), leaves you without eternal life (1Joh 3:15), and your past sins are no longer covered by Christ's sacrifice (Heb 10:26). If your were to die, or if Christ was to return and call the world into judgment while you are in this state you would be lost (Rev 22:11).

Even if you were to turn from the sin you have fallen into and have godly sorrow and repentance unto salvation (2Cor 7:10) you would have greatly harmed your soul. You have lost your first love (Rev 2:4), you have seared your conscience (1Tim 4:2), and as the bride of Christ (Rev 21:9 you have cheated on Jesus by prostituting yourself to the devil.

Going back to the vomit and wallowing in mire of sin (2Pet 2:2) is no small matter. The scriptures are clear that "this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments" and for the Christian "his commandments are not grievous" (1Joh 5:3), for we love to obey our Lord Jesus Christ.

We can be thankful that "God is faithful" and will not suffer his children "to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape" (1Cor 10:13). God both has power and he wills his children to be obedient.

The Word is clear that one of the ways we know we are a Christians is that "we keep his commandments" (1Joh 2:3). Those that say "I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1Joh 2:4). The Word of God is very clear on this point and tells us that those who "hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" (1Joh 3:15).

John gives the solemn warned to "let no man deceive you" for "He that committeth sin is of the devil" (1Jon 3:7, 8). Paul also warns us to "Be not deceived... For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption" (Gal 5:7, 8).

Dear people don't be deceived by this unbiblical teaching, reject it and cast it out. If you have fell under the influence of this teaching and have willful sin in your life, brow right now and plead the mercy of God and the blood of Christ. Look to Jesus who came to save you from not only the love and penalty of sin from from the very power of sin. Have godly sorrow and repentance, forsake all sin, and commit you life to God anew.

Commit to God that by his grace you will take sin serious and by his power and grace you will never given into it again. Spend much time in the Word of God (Rom 10:17) and in prayer (Jud 1:20) that your faith may be built up for we are keep by the power of God though faith (1Pet 1:5).

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. (Heb 13:20, 21).

Note: If you have a sin problem or are in need of spiritual counseling I offer free confidential counseling and can be contacted 24 hours a day at 519-636-6636. If you are a Christian brother and looking for discipleship from a mature Christian I have a program where we would get together weekly for prayer and Bible study. Contact me if this interests you.

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

>>Note: If you have a sin problem or are in need of spiritual counseling I offer free confidential counseling and can be contacted 24 hours a day at 519-636-6636. If you are a Christian brother and looking for discipleship from a mature Christian I have a program where we would get together weekly for prayer and Bible study. Contact me if this interests you.< <br>

I'm not sure whether my response should be this:



or this:



At any rate, Qwerty, you are certainly one sincere but deluded person. Why should people come to sit at YOUR feet and listen to YOUR teachings and opinions? Why do YOU have to be the one offering counselling and discipleship. Perhaps it's time you sat down and were the student instead of always being the teacher/preacher.

This is just absolutely amazing to me. I noticed that Qwerty was handing out some sort of 'suicide information' too. I have been on a couple forums now and most forums will not let people give each other medical advice. It's just not done!

On one forum a guy that was a regular poster threatened to kill himself and it shut down the forum for a while because they have a responsibility to inform the authorities if they know how to contact the person who is in need of help.

Qwerty does not seem to understand boundaries. I'm not suggesting that Fred be held responsible, but somehow for Qwerty to use this forum to hand out his 'counseling' information is just another example of Qwertys inability to understand boundaries.

From what I can gather, Qwerty is relatively well versed in the SEO field. Therefore, if he keeps posting here and who knows where else, he gets more backlinks, which in turn drives up his site in the google search rankings. Notice he has a link at the bottom of each post. So, in effect, he is milking this forum for his own benefit - not mine, yours, or anyone else's. Pure, unadulterated what's-in-it-for-me motive.

"Therefore, if he keeps posting here and who knows where else, he gets more backlinks, which in turn drives up his site in the google search rankings. Notice he has a link at the bottom of each post. So, in effect, he is milking this forum for his own benefit - not mine, yours, or anyone else's. Pure, unadulterated what's-in-it-for-me motive."

Bill, Sir, You have just given a working definition for most churches and religious people in one short paragraph.

Bill:

That's an interesting analysis. If that's the case, then Qwerty is not sincere but just deluded.

Paris, when I think about qwerty, I see a lost little dreamer without a life, finding refuge for past mistakes in attempting to steer disciples to his own misfortune, sort of like "misery loves company".

Are you suggesting that I deal with him and his steering disciples to his site by making a rule against that?

Are you suggesting that I deal with him and his steering disciples to his site by making a rule against that?

No, I guess not, I just think that it's not a good idea for Qwerty to open up doors such as 'possible suicide counseling' on a forum. Maybe if he was on a forum with medical professionals he could give phone numbers and suggestions.

The chances of anyone getting hurt are very minimal probably infinitesimal. I just can't see anyone else thinking it would be ok to do it here. Or on their personal religious blog.

I do wonder if he realizes that he is possibly opening up a door that could leave himself liable. I don't think Qwerty is trying to hurt anyone but somehow his greed for attention is ram-ping up or something.

Maybe if it was my forum I would ask him to refrain from including any medical or psychological suggestions or links.

I don't really know what people do on blogs, but I have seen on forums that are monitored a lot times the admins will come right on and tell people not to give medical advice.

Qwerty; where does the term "sin you must" come from ? I googled it and it only comes up on your web site except where it happens to appear as "... sin, you must...". Have you previously thought of or been aware of the suggestion Bill made ?

Qwerty, in September I reached to you on this subject and suggested we could learn from the Roman Catholics on sin, which teaching you seem to reflect. You avoided any response. Would you respond ? Here is part of what I wrote.

... On a similar vane as Qwerty brings forward, maybe the Roman Catholics have it right. They separate sins into mortal and venial sins. Not that we can or should do penance, but that we realize that grave sin causes one to lose connection with God, not to be taken lightly by anyone. Galatians 5 lists sin that are serious, and says individuals who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If interested, check.... http://www.saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

As believers, we have responsibility to live as the Bible teaches, not to gain salvation, but as a result of our salvation. We can experience the abundant life in the here and now, but to do so, means that we live our life as a follower of Jesus Christ and His teachings. One person gave the following advice for Calvinists and Arminian believing folks alike:

"A believer should live with the faith of a Calvinist, but live one's life as believing like an Arminian." ( end of copy.)

I still maintain that Qwerty holds his position on sin (partly) because of his 20 year indoctrination by COGR. It is a view that he substantiates by scripture, but it overlooks the human side of believers, and tends to elevate man to God's level. I read the scriptures to say that we "are sinners" infected by the fall of man and we will deal with this till we receive new bodies at the resurrection. I maintain, just as strongly as Qwerty, that believers avoid actual sin.

Menno Simons; "Death is but to cease from sinning."

I realize I'm of topic a bit, so I'll drop it. I don't want to Qwerty bash, it is the holdiay seanson..

Maybe in the new year..

Steven Thiessen:
>>>At any rate, Qwerty, you are certainly one sincere but deluded person.

Thanks Steven the Lord bless you.

>>>Why should people come to sit at YOUR feet and listen to YOUR teachings and opinions?

I don't suggest any one comes to my feet. Well we have a free press and freedom of religion in this land. So people have freedom to do as they want as long as they are not harming others. If people are interested in what I teach then they should have the freedom to listen to my opinions.

>>>Why do YOU have to be the one offering counselling and discipleship.

I don't have to I choose to.

Paris:
>>>I noticed that Qwerty was handing out some sort of 'suicide information' too. I have been on a couple forums now and most forums will not let people give each other medical advice. It's just not done!

The Lord bless you. If you took time to read the article I posted you would see it is a reprint of an article from a senior pastor of a congregation of 500 in California. I called and talked to the administration and they told me he has training and experience in dealing with people that are suicidal. The article gives a link to the original article and clearly notes this.

>>>No, I guess not, I just think that it's not a good idea for Qwerty to open up doors such as 'possible suicide counseling' on a forum.

I wasn't opening up doors to give suicide counseling on the forum. I was reprinting an article written by a trained person who has experience that will help people to know when to do if they find themselves in the position where they have a suicidal person on there hands.

bill:
>>>From what I can gather, Qwerty is relatively well versed in the SEO field. Therefore, if he keeps posting here and who knows where else, he gets more backlinks, which in turn drives up his site in the google search rankings. Notice he has a link at the bottom of each post. So, in effect, he is milking this forum for his own benefit - not mine, yours, or anyone else's. Pure, unadulterated what's-in-it-for-me motive.

The Lord bless you Bill.

First the forum software has a feature when you post where you can add a signature.

Next time you do a post look below the Message Text box and you will see a check box "Include Signature" and also a link that says "Formatted Text Signature". This is a feature where you can add in the signature your name or a saying or a link. This is very common thing that is done in most forms.

From what I can tell the network54.com forum system puts nofollow links on in the signatures and other links that are posted in the forum.

Here is what my link looks like.

< a href="http://morechristlike.com/" rel="nofollow">More Christ Like< /a>

Note the rel="nofollow" is in the link.

Here is what Wikipedia says about nofollow

"nofollow is an HTML attribute value used to instruct some search engines that a hyperlink should not influence the link target's ranking in the search engine's index. It is intended to reduce the effectiveness of certain types of search engine spam, thereby improving the quality of search engine results and preventing spamdexing from occurring."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nofollow

If you do a View|Page Source in the menu of your browser and then search of "For more articles go to" you will find the link and can view it for your self.

Fred:
>>>Paris, when I think about qwerty, I see a lost little dreamer without a life, finding refuge for past mistakes in attempting to steer disciples to his own misfortune, sort of like "misery loves company".

The Lord bless you Fred.

Sirius:
>>>Paris might have a point. For Qwerty to be dispensing psychiatric advice, without proper training and licensing, and especially to someone in distress, he might be crossing a line.

Note my comment to Paris.

Hank:
>>>Qwerty; where does the term "sin you must" come from ?

I am not sure. I think D.S. Warner may have used it. It is a term I think I picked up when I was in the Faith and Victory group. The Restoration also uses it. I will try to do a bit more research and see where it came from.

>>>Have you previously thought of or been aware of the suggestion Bill made ?

Which suggestion was that Hank, he suggest a number of things in his post. I responded to them. Perhaps my comments to him will answer your questions.

>>>You avoided any response. Would you respond ? Here is part of what I wrote.

No I didn't avoid responding. I must have missed the post as I don't remember seeing that question before. I make a point of answering all questions.

>>>... On a similar vane as Qwerty brings forward, maybe the Roman Catholics have it right. They separate sins into mortal and venial sins. Not that we can or should do penance, but that we realize that grave sin causes one to lose connection with God, not to be taken lightly by anyone.

I disagree with this. I think sin is sin. While the church deals with different sins in different ways James gives us the principle that if you are guilty of offending in point of God's law you are guilty of it all.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

>>>Galatians 5 lists sin that are serious, and says individuals who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

My first reaction here was to say that the Bible says "do" not "practice". So I looked at the 10 or some translations I have in my e-sword and then look at the Greek and was surprised in what I found. So thanks for bringing this up Hank.

The KJV says "do" so I looked that the 9 other translations. AMP do; ASV practise; NAS77 practice; NASB practice; NIV live like this; NKJV practice; NRSV do; RSV do; and YLT doing. T of 10 of these translations have "do" instead of "practice".

But what I found very interesting wsa NKJV has practice. So I looked at the Greek and was suprised to see the Greek is prasso. While prasso can mean "1a) to undertake, to do" the primary means seems to be to practise "1) to exercise, practise, to be busy with, carry on" typically if you want to imply a single act poieo is used.

>>>As believers, we have responsibility to live as the Bible teaches, not to gain salvation, but as a result of our salvation.

Amen I completely agree with you on this!

>>>I still maintain that Qwerty holds his position on sin (partly) because of his 20 year indoctrination by COGR.

I think that statement is fair to a degree. But the sin free position that the Restoration holds is the Wesleyan view. I have cut my teeth almost exclusively on non-Evening Light books. I have in my book shelf most of the main classic works on entire-sanctification and have had my views formed by those people not the people in the Restoration.

One of my points I gave to Henry was that they talk sanctification to low.

"15. a low standard of sanctification that allows for carnality in the sanctified;"
16 Objections to COGR Practices & Doctrines.

>>>It is a view that he substantiates by scripture, but it overlooks the human side of believers, and tends to elevate man to God's level.

I hold this statement as false and misrepersenting. I believe the condition of man is total depraved as taught by Arminius; I believe as Christians are living in a vile body (Phi 3:21) (literally "the body of humiliation") that we must bring into subjection by discipline (1Cor 9:29) though the grace and the power of God; I hold that we are frail beings that have limited understanding in the temporal and spiritual realms and see things in a mirror dimly (1Cor 13:22); and I hold that we have faults, errors, make mistakes in opinion and practice and many times must come to the Lord and ask if to help us and forgive us for problems we have caused and peoples feelings that we have hurt etc..

I do believe by the grace of God when we are saved we can live a life of obedience (1Cor 10:13) and that God not over saves us from sinning but gives us a pure heart (Mat 5:8).

Now however some one can honestly say that what I hold tends to elevate man to God's level is mystery to me. Hank I suggest you review your position you are holding misleading others to believe.

>>>I maintain, just as strongly as Qwerty, that believers avoid actual sin.

When did you start doing that. I have seen many points on this forum where you clear have stated it is not possible to live free from sin in this life and while we should try not to sin and to avoid sin as much as possible the fact is that we will from time to time sin.

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

The Lord bless you Fred.

Bless you too Qwerty!

I believe, Qwerty, that we really are at an impasse on this issue; but a couple of questions and statements.

You quote theologians and writers; and I do too. I am just a Mennonite fellow who cut my understanding of scripture on Holdeman, Menno Simons and Dirk Philips. Have you any response to what MS teaches on this subject ? If you wish, I can post more of what they have written.

(I will admit that I do not accept all that Holdeman, MS & DP have written.)

Based on your understanding, I assume you do NOT ask God for forgiveness of your faults, mistakes, errors, opinions etc., since you do not see them as sin. Is this correct ?; if I am not assuming correctly, why would you ask God for forgiveness if you have not sinned ? Do you pray your prayers after the example of the Lord's prayer ?

Qwerty; by your response asking when I started to advocate "not to sin" I am somewhat surprised. I have never advocated sinning at any time and believe you must misunderstand me.

I have said this before, but I believe our difference is in that we have different views of sinful man vs. almighty righteous God. My view is that positionally we only meet God's approval by faith in Jesus Christ. Your position leans towards acceptance by God based on Christ and our righteous living. I prefer to continue to believe that I daily am dependent on Jesus Christ.

"... I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day." 2 Tim. 1:12 p

Hank:
>>>Based on your understanding, I assume you do NOT ask God for forgiveness of your faults, mistakes, errors, opinions etc., since you do not see them as sin.

Not at all. I am very often before the Lord asking expressing my sorrow for my short coming and asking him to help me.

In my article on being Harsh I shared this and also on my article on Finances I shared this.

>>>Even as I have been writing this article, I have knelt in prayer weeping and repenting for the foolishness and the wastefulness of the prior years of my life. Oh what regret I feel in my soul. In the writing of this article I have addressed a number of stewardship issues in my own life. I made a decision about a year ago not to build a 1700 sq ft luxury home, and have had to repent for some of the purchases I have made in the last year, and also a foolish investment that went bad. I have made a commitment to God to live a simpler lifestyle.
Tips For Plain-Life Christians To Become Debt Free.

>>>Those that rail on others and use disparing language need to check their hearts for arrogance. I know this has caused me to check my heart, and the Lord revealed something to me that I didnt know was there and I have repented over it.
Using Harsh Language.

I take my errors, faults, and mistakes in opinion and practice very seriously and try to not repeat them.

>>>if I am not assuming correctly, why would you ask God for forgiveness if you have not sinned?

When we do things unintentionally that hurt others or even if some thing we have done is taken the wrong way or some think we have said hurt the feelings of someone that perhaps is over sensitive we still should to ask them for forgiveness and ask the Lord to help us to not be an offense and to be more sensitive to those that are weak. When we are sorry we ask for forgivness. "I am sorry I have offended you will you forgive me."

When it comes to the Lord we ask him to help us and express sorrow. As noted above in my quote from my article on both harsh language and finances I told the Lord I was sorry for wasting his money and asked him to forgiven me. I didn't willfully waste his money but the fact remains that I did. So I say I am sorry and I ask for forgiveness and I think spent quite a bit of time weeping and repenting over that issue.

>>>Do you pray your prayers after the example of the Lord's prayer ?
I would consider that could be used for the as a model for asking the Lord for forgiveness for unwillful transgressions against his law yes. This is how John Wesley deals with scripture and that is the explanation I have embraced. He discusses this in this booklet Plain Account. I can give you a URL to it if you like.

>>>Qwerty; by your response asking when I started to advocate "not to sin" I am somewhat surprised. I have never advocated sinning at any time and believe you must misunderstand me.

Please provide me with my quote where I stated you advocated sinning. As far as I know I have never stated such a thing.

>>>I have said this before, but I believe our difference is in that we have different views of sinful man vs. almighty righteous God.

I would agree with that.

>>>My view is that positionally we only meet God's approval by faith in Jesus Christ.

I also agree with that.

>>>Your position leans towards acceptance by God based on Christ and our righteous living.

Not at all. Our acceptance is totally on the merits of what Christ has done for us and not an the merits of anything we do. Note I said merits. However when we do God's will we please him.

2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Also God requires obedience but at the same time provides the grace and power to be obedience. All we have to give is our will. We give God our will and let him work through and in us. The problem is some people are unwilling to give there will.

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Qwerty, thank-you for your response.

Thank-you also for clarifying your comment as follows:

Hank said: "... I maintain, just as strongly as Qwerty, that believers avoid actual sin.

Qwerty responded: "When did you start doing that? (end of copy.)

Have you any comments on Menno Simons' teaching of believing man being a sinner ?

Qwerty wrote:

">>>Do you pray your prayers after the example of the Lord's prayer ?
I would consider that could be used for the as a model for asking the Lord for forgiveness for unwillful transgressions against his law yes."

This likely is where we part ways in our understanding, Qwerty. I consider your above statement to describe "sin"; the type of sin all of us are infected with. It still is sin, and yet you have said that you have not sinned in 2-3 ? years.

An issue I take with you is that it is impossible to genuinely ask for forgiveness if we do not acknowledge sin.

Apparently you ask God for forgiveness for things you do not consider to be sin. You have said that sin is sin, and said you cannot identify sin as venial or mortal sin. Can you explain this further for us ?

>>Can you explain this further for us ?< <br>
Don't encourage him, Hank! His verbal diarrhea is bad enough as is.

Hank:
>>>This likely is where we part ways in our understanding, Qwerty. I consider your above statement to describe "sin"; the type of sin all of us are infected with. It still is sin, and yet you have said that you have not sinned in 2-3 ? years.

I don't believe the Bible would support that making bad financial decisions are sin if when we made them we had been prayerful and careful. But if a person that has made poor financial decisions 6 months later receives further and light on stewardship they need to repend and have regret and sorrow for there errors and I personally hold that it is good to bring them before the Lord and tell him you are sorry, ask for forgiveness and seek for understanding and grace not to repeat them.

Also, and I will speak for myself on this one, I don't think when I came to the place in my life where I feel the Lord leading me away from being to blunt and using language that would could be offensive -- that what I had done in the past was sin.

Yes I repented for it, yes I asked for forgiveness, and yes I have changed my conduct.

And Hank this isn't the difference between you and you. It is my understanding the the sins you would feel that Christians can have in there life and still be saved are not just these "unwillful sins" but they are also willful sins.

When you and I had a conversation on street people I felt like you repressed to me that he should almost expect street people that got saved to have problems with sin. That they wouldn't quite sinning right away. Perhaps they would still be smoking and yes while they feel smoking was sin. On these points I felt like you were pleading for mercy and understanding and saying lets give them time.

It is these kinds of sins that are willful that you feel like, from what I can understand, Christians can have in there life, but should work on being freed from.

So we are back to what I have already posted in the opening post of this thread. People are pleading that faults, errors, and mistakes in opinion and acts are unwillful sins and there for we can't say we are free from sin. But I have yet to find someone that has held this position that states that there can be no willful sins in a Christians life.

I find that people are pleading for a sinning religion based on "unwillful sins" but at the same while they don't say it they seem to be really pleading for willful sins.

I am against mixing the two together and my reasons are that if you allow unwillful sins and just call them sins you are making allowance for willful sins. And this is what we find in general Christian circles. If you ask people that hold this view if they have had problems with willful sin in there life and not just faults, errors, and mistakes for the most part you will find they have.

>>>An issue I take with you is that it is impossible to genuinely ask for forgiveness if we do not acknowledge sin.

Well lets define what you are calling sin now. Are you talking about willful sins or what some are calling "unwillful sins" (faults, errors, and mistakes). If you are talking about willful sins I agree. If you are not I disagree as I don't think they are sins.

Keep in mind Hank you have to be able to take this definition model to the Bible and make sure it applies. Paul told Timithy that "them that sin rebuke before all". Now if sin includes "unwillful sins" then we all need to end our day with rebuking each other.

It appears you take scriptures like "He that committeth sin is of the devil" ( 1Joh 3:8KJV) and hold because poeio is in the Greek present tense that this means "the one who practices sin is of the devil" (NASB). (You can view the tenses of the each Greek word at biblos.com by looking up a verse and then hovering over the Greek word. Here is a sample for 1 John 3:8 in Greek-English Interlinear.

So now if faults, errors, and mistakes are "sins" and we are all unwillfully commiting these ever day don't you think it would be fair to say we practice these "sins" or that we do them continuously?

I could go on and show scripture after scripture where the model that sin includes "unwilful sins" (faults, errors, and mistakes) just will not work.

Then we have to deal with the scriptures that tell us to keep this commandments.

For example "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar" (1Joh 2:4). Here the Greek word teron that is translated keepeth is in the Greek present tense. While I have heard lots of people plead for the scriptures like "he that committeth sin is of the devil" to be translated "practice" or "commit continuously" I have yet to see the same class of these people plead that scripture like "keepeth not his commandments, is a liar" for "keep not continuously his commandments, is a liar".

If you want to use the Greek present tense to mean practice, (and it can be translated either way do or practice when the Greek present tense is used) then you will have to be fair and do the same with the other scriptures like 1Joh 2:4.

Now you will have to deal with "he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not continuously his commandments, is a liar".

This is what I mean by the model of sin you hold (both "unwillful sins" errors, faults, and mistakes, and willful sins) doesn't work when you apply it to the scriptures.

Of course that is not the only issue that I have raised. I hold that the new covenant teaches that where there is no understanding there is no sin (unless the conscience is sears and people that once knew things were wrong not feel that are not) and to support this would point you to Rom 5:13 where it says "but sin is not imputed when there is no law".

Also Jam 4:17 state that "to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" indicating to me you have to know it is wrong. And Paul tells us that "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth" and then tells us that if we do some thing with out faith that Gods approve is on it that it is sin (Rom 14:22,23).

Also when James tells us how we fall into sin he clear notes that we have to be tempted before we can sin "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death (Jam 1:14, 15).

I often wonder after reviewing these points and many more with people that they still want to plead that mistakes are sins. Hank I have come to the conclusion that for the most part is it because they have willful sin in there own life or have had willful sin in there own life and don't want accept the fact that that sin separated them from God and they are not as spiritual as they think.

Therefore they embrace a system that enables them to plead for sin in the believer by saying that sin includes errors, faults, and mistakes. In this way they can't be accused of standing up for sin. But when they do this they are really making an allowance for willful sin under guise of what they are calling unwillful sins.

>>>Apparently you ask God for forgiveness for things you do not consider to be sin. You have said that sin is sin, and said you cannot identify sin as venial or mortal sin. Can you explain this further for us ?

I am not sure what needs to be further explained. I hold that is nothing wrong with asking a person or God to forgive you for some thing you did my mistake that hurt them. I think it is good that we take our errors, faults, and mistakes very serious.

I don't consider there to be two types of sins. I hold that errors, mistakes, and faults should be as must as possible avoided, make right with those of whom they were committed against, taken to the Lord and ask him to help us not repeat them, to express out sorrow to the Lord for them, and personally I have ask the Lord to forgive me for them.

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Steven Thiessen:
>>>His verbal diarrhea is bad enough as is.

The Lord bless you Steve.

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Qwerty; this subject frustrates me.... its not you that frustrates me but the subject. (at least my self-right tendency wants me to think so).

Are you able to take a stab at what Menno Simons teaches ? My understanding of him is that believers should not, ought not, do not habitually live in sin, but we recognize that we are not on a level with the righteousness of God. This is sinful man and will remain such till the resurrection. When one sins, there always is forgiveness available through Jesus Christ to any and all who come with honest acknowledgment and repentance to Christ. He never turns a sorrowful heart away. Never. Of course, MS is referring to genuine repentance.

I do hold to the following (which likely ties into your understanding) as Adam Clark and Finney both say. (Paraphrased) "If we intend to hurt someone and perchance we do him good, it is held against us because it was our intent to hurt. If we intend to do good to a person, and it happens to harm him, we are not accountable because it was our intent to do good. However, when we find out it has harmed another, then we are responsible to correct it, or else it will be held against us."

Here is a little more on the Anabaptists. What they were against was that the church offered forgiveness by the sacraments, while individuals continued to live in sin. They said NO, when one is born again such a person lives as a follower of Christ. They taught against individuals finding comfort in the sacraments while still in sin. Our comfort is in Christ when we believe and follow Him. However, they never taught that one became sinless. Christ was the only person that ever lived without sin... and believers do not achieve this level of righteousness, nor can we ever say we are without sin.

Qwerty,what ever happened to just living by the Holy Spirit? Isn't that His job to tell us or convict us when we do wrong, and that an apology or asking forgiveness is in order?

Is living a Christian life getting it down to a science, where we are splitting hairs to determine what is sin and what is not?


>>I could go on and show scripture after scripture where the model that sin includes "unwilful sins" (faults, errors, and mistakes) just will not work.< <br>
I see a lot of lattitude in a blanket statement such as faults, errors, and mistakes where that could include all kinds of sin. It's all in the terminology. Let's say for example that a minister realizes he made a 'mistake' and wrongfully expelled someone, thereby unjustly condemned him to hell. Was that a 'sin' or just a 'mistake'?


The early Christians there at Ephesus and Corinth,etc. did not have a Bible such as we have today, neither did they have a Mirror of truth or Messenger of Truth, a BD&P, a Thirty Three Articles of Faith or whatever else. So for the most part they had to rely on the teachings of Jesus and the Holy Spirit did they not? Yes, we need to study to show ourselves approved but I think you are just taking it all too far, IMHO.

GM:
Qwerty,what ever happened to just living by the Holy Spirit?

Ungodly men crept in and "change the grace of our God into a license for immorality" (Jud 1:4 NIV). So now we much warn the people of these false teachers.

>>>Isn't that His job to tell us or convict us when we do wrong, and that an apology or asking forgiveness is in order?

Yes I agree. We shouldn't have to be told.

>>>Is living a Christian life getting it down to a science, where we are splitting hairs to determine what is sin and what is not?

Well we much expose those that "change the grace of our God into a license for immorality". If we did have so many false teachers and false professors there would not have to be so much said on this line.

>>>I see a lot of lattitude in a blanket statement such as faults, errors, and mistakes where that could include all kinds of sin.

I am not gives a blanket statement that all faults, errors, and mistakes are not sin. I would say that all sins are errors and and mistakes but not all errors and mistakes are sins. When I define faults, errors, and mistakes I clearly exclude all willful sinning.

>>>It's all in the terminology. Let's say for example that a minister realizes he made a 'mistake' and wrongfully expelled someone, thereby unjustly condemned him to hell. Was that a 'sin' or just a 'mistake'?

Well that is not a cut and dry issue. If it was wrong and done with love and for the betterment of the congregation and not out of spite I couldn't say that was sin. I would say a minister that has done that needs to have their ministry reviewed.

>>>Yes, we need to study to show ourselves approved but I think you are just taking it all too far, IMHO.

Well I feel that this false sin you must teaching that is basically teaching that sin is compatible with the Christian life much be exposed so that honest souls can get from from it. I don't expect the false teachers to change but I hope as the warnings go out that honest Christians will see they have been beguiled and throw off the yoke of bondage.

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

(2 Ch 6:36) If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies

(Ec 7:20-22) For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. 21 Also take no heed unto all words that are spoken; lest thou hear thy servant curse thee: 22 For oftentimes also thine own heart knoweth that thou thyself likewise hast cursed others.

(1 Jn 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us

(1 Jn 5:16) If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Note how the above Scripture calls ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS sin. Would that all not even include small mistakes and shortcomings?

I believe because we never become perfect as was Jesus, Jesus not only must be the author of our faith, (providing forgiveness for past sins which might have been premeditated and unto death), but also needs be the finisher of our faith (providing forgiveness for sins that are mistakes and not unto death).

(Heb 12:2) "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith..."

Yet all the above does not mean Christians can be casual, but rather can mean God's standards are so high that we even after carefully striving to do our very best (and being free of sins unto death), will still at times be guilty of mistakes and shortcomings and thus sins that are not unto death.

May we all be kind to one another rather than cruelly accuse each other. May Qwerty and all of us, rather than merely want to HAVE BEEN right, want to be right and upright, insomuch that we are willing to change our minds. May God have mercy on us.

Qwerty, I have a question. About the guy on your original post, just what was his sin that caught your attention and posted his likeness? Was it the no beard? Was it the sideburns? Or, was it that he is a smoker? That he has on a leather jacket? Maybe that he appears to be left handed? That he posed for the photo? Just what was it?

Vine:
>>>Qwerty, I have a question. About the guy on your original post, just what was his sin that caught your attention and posted his likeness? Was it the no beard? Was it the sideburns? Or, was it that he is a smoker? That he has on a leather jacket? Maybe that he appears to be left handed? That he posed for the photo? Just what was it?

I am not sure where I found the picture now but I would looking for a picture of a sinner when I found this one. I think it was the smoking that caught my eye. I don't think a person has to have a beard, I am not against sideburns, I don't think leather jackets are sinful and I think God makes people left handed.

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

Amos:
>>>(2 Ch 6:36) If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies
(Ec 7:20-22) For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. 21 Also take no heed unto all words that are spoken; lest thou hear thy servant curse thee: 22 For oftentimes also thine own heart knoweth that thou thyself likewise hast cursed others.

Under the old covenant they didn't have victory over sin.
Rom 8:2-3 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

>>>(1 Jn 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us

Here John is referring to those in verse three that don't have fellowship with the Father and explains that those who claim they have no sin any other way than having fellowship with the Father and Son are liars. He goes on to clearly state in chapter two, three, and five that whoever is born of God doesn't sin.

>>>(1 Jn 5:16) If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

I would hold that this refers to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

>>>17 ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
Note how the above Scripture calls ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS sin. Would that all not even include small mistakes and shortcomings?

No I don't believe the Bible teaches that mistakes are sin as you are not tempted to make a mistake. With sin under the new covenant you much be tempted first.

>>>I believe because we never become perfect as was Jesus,

I agree.

>>>May we all be kind to one another rather than cruelly accuse each other.

I totally agree on this one!

>>>May Qwerty and all of us, rather than merely want to HAVE BEEN right, want to be right and upright, insomuch that we are willing to change our minds.

Amen!

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.

QWERTY,

Do you think your picture is representative of a righteous person?

Vine:

It was probably the fact that he isn't wearing Qwerty-approved garb. (I bet the guy in the picture even goes BAREFOOT when he goes swimming)!

TR:
>>>Do you think your picture is representative of a righteous person?

No I would hold that a picture of Christ is a representative of a righteous person. I am just another person that was a wicked awful sinner that is save by grace and is full of errors, faults, and mistakes in opinion and conduct. When I have done all that I think is my duty I feel and say I am an unprofitable person (Luk 17:10).

And in His temple every one saith, 'Glory.' -- Psa 29:9 (YLT)
For more articles go to More Christ Like blog.