TM.. concerning your posts on the So Many Question thread. WOW!! Please read I John 1:9 & 10 and compare what you have said to those verses. Look up what some of the words mean.. like preeminence and consider rather you hear your brethren in the H church doing some of the other actions listed in verse 10....

You make it sound like you are the ONLY church around.....

Walking in the light

 5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all^[b] sin.

 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Who has claimed to have not sinned? Certainly not me. The difference is that when we sin we have to repent. My church isn't the only one around. It is the only one that I feel preaches the whole bible. If you feel like you are where God wants you then I have no argument with you. I have an issue when people trash my church becasue they don't agree with it. There is not one of us that claim to be good and righteous. Only Jesus blood on or lives can atone for our sins. All our good deeds are filthy rags before God. Yet we must follow as best we can. Nobody will get to heaven by not being a bad person. What about verse 6?? Many will say Lord Lord in the end.

 

Check! Check! Reality Check! Getting kicked around for telling it like it is since 2005!!

"It is the only one that I feel preaches the whole bible."

So what does" preach the whole Bible" mean? So do all the other churches, What makes yours the hot dog of all?
There is a difference between preaching the whole Bible and distortating it, like the holdeman church does.
You distort the Holy Word probably worse than any church out there.
You distort the verses for expelling, you distort the verse for avoidance and in doing so,
have hurt hundreds of people, and could care less about it. Is that your idea of preaching "the whole bible"?

"My church isn't the only one around. It is the only one that I feel preaches the whole bible."

I won't beat a dead horse, because I have debated this before, but I was raised an H and never doubted it was the true church until going to some meetings by another denomination and found their sermons were filled with scripture references from beginning to end. Most of the sermons I heard as an H involved one or 2 verses and then a very tearful homily on the state of things. Understand, I am not belittling soft hearts because we are told in God's word we need them.

My point is this - the whole Bible is not preached. I NEVER heard about the earthly or heavenly sanctuary and how the whole sacrificial service pointed to Jesus, the spotless Lamb of God. The only references I recall from the OT were about not taking "usury" and not "marring the corners of the beard." Clearly a case of straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

There is not a clearer teaching in all of the Bible than mode of baptism and yet it is not taught.

There is no scripture in the Bible changing the seventh day Sabbath which was instituted for all mankind at the end of creation week and yet the H worship on man's day rather than God's as taught in His word.

I could go on, but I will kindly spare you.

And to add to Galen's comments in defense of TM; the Bible teaches us not to flaunt our liberties, to accept each others differences (without sacrifice of doctrines), to live free of bondage, to not judge or DESPISE (Rom. 14), to nurture and encourage one another in the faith.... all these while keeping unity in the brotherhood.

I believe TM displays these characteristics.

<<< Most of the sermons I heard as an H involved one or 2 verses and then a very tearful homily on the state of things.>>>

Exactly! Appealing purely to emotions and not to logic and reason. Hitler's speeches have been studied exhaustively to determine their incredible effectiveness. He used the same technique.

Hank, I don't want to have a conversation with you because you will never (or choose not to) get it, but your politiking again at the expense of clarity, truth, and justice made me wonder if this liberty you graciously extend to the holdies also include their liberty to treat your wife in such a way as to nearly give her a nervous breakdown?

To answer Scott's observation and question; no H minister has any permission to speak to my wife about spiritual things without my presence. We do not hang this sign around our necks but it comes from our understanding of each other and the fellowship/beliefs we share (and even differ in) of Christianity.

In respect to TM; Scott, you are being ridicules. TM is an honest individual believer following his conscience and he never had anything to do with my (our) spiritual/church life. Never met the man, but reading him, I see he reaches to others, has a heart, is not afraid to step out of a closed circuit, likely is careful not to hurt his brothers and has a genuine interest in the gospel of Jesus Christ. He knows what he believes and is not afraid to say it. I respect that, even though we may not agree on all points made in the Bible.

I am not politicing, I am not trying to make brownie or table points; I am just saying it as I see it.

Re: The Holdechurch preaching the whole Bible. I agree with the 'two verses and a tearful homily' description.

In most churches I have attended, there are multiple readings of the scriptures. In our case, three, - one from the OT, two from the NT (one from the epistles and one from the Gospel), plus part of a psalm or two.

The sermon is usually an exegesis of the Gospel and/or one or both of the other scripture readings for the day.

The Holdie church has way less scripture read and taught than any other church I have ever attended. Honestly - I can't think of a church I have been to that did not have at least one scripture reading (as opposed to the Holdepractise of taking various verses or portions thereof and cobbling them together to make the Bible say what the Holdepreacher wants it to say).

I think some may resent your role as peacemaker on this FORUM, but the Bible places a blessing on peacemakers.

Matt 5:9 "Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."

Merry Christmas, child of God!

TM is okay, we do not always see eye to eye on lots of things but we can and still do remain friends as far as I know. He didn't come from the gravy train either and takes a lot of hard knocks from all around, too. And while we may not be on the same side of the fence here, he has a good head and heart.

Love and prayers, Locklady

It is repugnant to speak of peace with the intent to avoid the issues of justice. What peace means in holdiland is sweeping unresolved issues under the carpet, and never holding anyone accountable (except the victims of the system of course).

I know Scott, it gets hard sometimes, to watch stuff just get stuffed over and over, but sometimes I have to do what I need to do to keep peace just so I can live with my own self and conscience. It will never matter what I think, there are some things that will just never get resolve unless others are willing to work at it. We can never fix stuff that remains one sided, it takes 2 sides working together to resolve things and one side tryin to do all the resolving never gets too far. It is taking me awhile but I have to go one and leave some of this stuff unresolved because some folks will never recgonise the damage they have personally caused, I had a conversation with an abuser just last week, with him going on about how some should be judged and punished and I am sitting there thinking, " You can see that in others, but you cannot see that you did the exactly same thing to me." Sorry, call me what you want but I had to hang up and just let my LM hold me for a bit while I tried to recover the shock and unjustice of it all. Until the right person gets it across to some folks, it will never matter what I say and I am working on peace in my stomach right now.

Maybe Hank is having the same struggle.

Love and prayers, Locklady

LL, I understand your post. Now, in my opinion, Hank and Galen have missed a not-so-subtle distinction. It is one thing to speak of peace between two warring factions, both inflicting harm on the other, the history of their contention going back so far that it is impossible to determine where it started. Yes, the Hatfields and McCoys need to have peace preached to them. But,this should not be confused with holding abusers and molesters accountable, and quite frankly, I'm surprised that it is confused by grown men. Is this only an opportunity for them to posture their so-called Christian love? How convenient since they haven't either one been personally harmed by the holdies. How convenient to take the high and noble road when its costs us nothing.



The bible preaches a time for peace and a time for war. Now if this forum is not a place for contention with the holdies, does a new one need to be started?



I think in a nutshell, what annoys me about much of the peacekeeping of Hank (and now Galen?) is that somehow in their peaceful posturing, TRUTH is lost about who and what the holdies are and do? This is not acceptable. If you want to show mercy to TM, fine, but to be honest and to not pervert justice, one must also continue to confront them with how unacceptable it is to harm others in the name of your personal religious beliefs.

The ONLY accountability I have EVER observed in holdiland is that those who have been materially harmed by the system and rejected as heretics are required to accept the violation of their space and rights in a meek, loving, and Christ-like manner. Nothing is required of the holdies in terms of deceny, and especially the ministers. They have a blank-check to abuse under the mantle of "freedom of religion".

"Hank, I think some may resent your role as peacemaker on this FORUM, but the Bible places a blessing on peacemakers."







Although I personally view Hank as being a peacemaker at times, I also see him as being one who OFTEN COMPROMISES WITH THE TRUTH, which is NOT the same thing as being a "peacemaker" the way I understand it. Scott is right about both Hank and Galen in this case.

>>somehow in their peaceful posturing, TRUTH is lost about who and what the holdies are and do< <br>


Absofrickinlutely, Scott.



Good post, Herman as well.



You know, it's a bit like saying, well, yes, we know that he raped a bunch of people in the 1970s, but you know, back in the 1950s he was a pretty good guy. Now it's the year 2008 and I really prefer to think of how he was in the 1950s. He just got a little misguided back there in the 1970s, and I think that maybe he kind of realises it but doesn't want to admit it. At any rate, I'd rather hang around with him than his rape victims, because, well, uh, I really, really would like to believe he is still a good guy like he was back in the 1950s and, well, you know, some of his victims don't always speak in the 'gentle, loving' way that he does. But more importantly, if I ever admitted to myself and my loved ones how much he really hurt all of us, I'd have no fuzzy, warm memories of him. I'd just have to see him for what he is - and I can't and don't want to go there.

<<< I also see him as being one who OFTEN COMPROMISES WITH THE TRUTH, which is NOT the same thing as being a "peacemaker" >>>

Now that should be framed, and to expand on it just a mite, one who compromises truth and justice in order to parade their piousness is not only not a peace maker, but is really a secret war maker. Perverted justice never goes away, it just simmers and stews.

TM writes: << I have an issue when people trash my church becasue they don't agree with it. >>>

You are justified in this position only if your Church has not harmed people. Once you harm, all bets are off and you deserve everything you get and more.

>>I have an issue when people trash my church becasue they don't agree with it.< <br>
TM: What Scott says is true. Most of us who take issue with the Holdeman church do not do so primarily because we disagree with it per se. I disagree with elements of belief in many denominations and religions - and many disagree with mine. That's part of being human.

But, like Scott says, once you harm someone, all bets are off. And, the fact of the matter is that the Holdeman church has harmed many people over the years and continues to do so. It has had a significant role in the breakup of marriages and family relationships. It has sheltered sex offenders and covered up their abuse. It turns the other way when physical abuse takes place in its schools. In short, in its relatively brief lifetime (150 years is a blip in time), it has done an amount of harm vastly disproportionate to its miniscule size (18,000 members is such a small portion of the global population that it barely registers statistically).

That's why we 'trash' and 'bash' your precious little Holdewhore.

There seems to be 2 issues here in respect to my post; not sure just how to read the first ??

1. "Often compromises the truth" ; please give me more information so I can respond.

2. I came here to the defense of TM. The response I get seems to me to be one that would condemn every person in Illinois just because their name starts with the letter B. You aught to take a good look at yourselves...

Stop playing dishonest little games Hank. You know what we are talking about. You know this issue has come up before in your life, and has been presented to you from different individuals, and not just one or two on this forum. You have information that you DO have a problem. You KNOW you give off a pherenome of weakeness, compromise, political pandering, etc. I'm not saying you do this everytime in every situation, but you DO mask weakness and compromise with "niceness". So stop playing games and go look in your own mirror.

" I came here to the defense of TM."

Thats no surprise. TM won't answer, maybe you can help me Holdeman Hank. What has changed that TM can now brag about owning a camera, when 20 years ago my Father-in-law was told by Arverd Wiggers, that he would have to remove either the camera or himself from the reunion, because "our people don't believe in them".So since TM says your holdeman church preaches the "whole bible" it now seems to be ok to have a camera. What changed? Surely not your holdeman church Hank, it must be that the bible has changed. Help me out here, is TM simply bragging because he is not worried about his identity on this form? Or has "god"(the church) changed the rules, once again?
Holdeman Hank you are holdeman through and through, you are Qwerty all over.You truly need to quit jacking around, and join the church you love so much. For cryin out loud just DO IT.

Nas, the reason why some congs allow cameras or dvd's and some don't, is the reason they are the one true church. See, no other church in history has the "perfect unity" that the cgcm has. Oh, but conveniently, they also have "liberty" in certain areas!

It really does hurt the brain to keep up with all the unity and liberty that goes on there!

Well, you see, Peter, they have Unity even in their Liberty. (Of course, OTHER churches that have Unity in their Liberty are in disunity and therefore not the OTVC). You see how easy it all is?

It's not because the Holdeman church has unity and therefore it is the OTVC. No, no. That's putting the cart before the horse. First of all, you need to just accept the premise that they are the OTVC. Once you accept that, then clearly they have to be united. So, the result is that they have what looks suspiciously like disunity, but since they are the OTVC, obviously they can't be in disunity. Therefore, whatever, however, and wherever their differences may exist, it's still unity.

Why? Because. They are the OTVC. That is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like unto it: Without the OTVC belief they are nothing but a another splinter group of legalistic and brainwashed cultists, but because they have the candlestick, they are the highest authority on earth. On these two laws hang all the BD's and P's.

That's funny Steve. Mark Dirks told me to my face that CGCM is the highest spiritual authority on earth! Wow, thats quite a claim. They use their authority to heal and restore? Not only no but hell no! Their authority is used exclusively to force "unity", to scare the sh*t out of people, and to expell and shun. Great! If this be Jesus, could we have a little less of him PLEASE!

My H nephew has a camera for his business. He does excavating and documents drainage etc. He doesn't have the internet though - He brought me some nice digital pictures of his truck so i could post it on Craigslist for him.

Well this thread sure grew since I last looked. I appreciate those that stuck up for me in my absense. I wasn't bragging about owning a camera. It was insinuated that I was hiding one and I am not, that's all. We do a lot of excavating and underground piping and electrical work, a lot of places require documentation.

Check! Check! Reality Check! Getting kicked around for telling it like it is since 2005!!

"It has sheltered sex offenders and covered up their abuse."

Steven,

Sexual abuse and cover up is as natural to religion as dogs pissing on car tires. It's part of the history of religion. And it's in every religious denomination, including your own, Steven. In case you don't know, that's another great mark against ALL religions. But go ahead and give me that line.....but the Holdeman church is the OTVC and they should know better. This must be your logic! But then you concede they must have a higher mind and you're just trying to get them to live up to their full stature, and that all the rest of us are below them, right? But I don't much care for that idea and I bet you don't either. But if no, you're not trying to get them to live up to their full stature of the OTVC, then where is the OTVC claim at because there's nothing to live up too, and why are you trying to hold them down in something that is so void and empty for both those that claim it and for those that hear it at the same time you accuse them? And if you think they're so ignorant to claim such a thing without any cognition to process such a claim - which must then say the OTVC claim has something in it to live up too, then you concede they have a different flesh and that it stick worse than other fleshes, and again, why taunt them if they don't have the ability to rise to such a claim? But for crying out loud, anyone who knows better understands all human flesh is the same with like problems and smells. I don't understand why you exholdemans make such a row about it.

Brent

Yeah, just to level the playing field a little, there IS the other 'One True Church'.(see below) I know this is a holdeman forum, but in all fairness,I don't see much point in loading all the ills of the holdemans on one individual when there is very little he can do about it. Lord knows I have a lot of disagreements too with the H and how things are handled and I am trying to work through that but I believe we can all agree that there are things in all of your churches you don't agree with either. As for Hank,I think he was just giving TM some lattitude for the way he believes and not to judge.

Father Damen also believes he is in the One True Church. Here are some quotes and the entire website:

We are pleased to reprint Father Damen's compelling sermon, "The One True Church," unedited, exactly as it was first published shortly after his death in 1890. In so doing, we have two purposes: One is to recall to our fellow Catholics of whatever rank or dignity within the Church that the unequivocal belief in the doctrine on salvation is not only essential to the recovery of the Faith from the grave errors which now corrupt it, but it is the inseparable mark of the true Church Militant. The second and all important purpose, of course, is to encourage Catholics to place this imperative message in the hands of non-Catholics. By so doing, all of you who help in such apostolic labors will be continuing the blessed work of the venerable priest, Arnold Damen.




It is admitted on all sides, by Protestants and Catholics alike acknowledged, that Christ has established a Church; and, strange to say, all our Protestant friends acknowledge, too, that he has established but one Church-----but one Church-----for, whenever Christ speaks of His Church, it is always in the singular. Bible readers, remember that; my Protestant friends, pay attention. He says: "Hear the Church,"-----not hear the Churches-----"I have built My Church upon a rock"-----not My Churches.

Whenever He speaks, whether in figures or parables of His Church, He always conveys to the mind a oneness, a union, a unity. He speaks of His Church as a sheepfold, in which there is but one shepherd-----that is the head of all, and the sheep are made to follow his voice; "other sheep I have who are not of this fold." One fold, you see. He speaks of His Church as of a kingdom, in which there is but one king to rule all; speaks of His Church as a family in which there is but one father at the head; speaks of His Church as a tree, and all the branches of that tree are connected with the trunk, and the trunk with the roots; and Christ is the root, and the trunk is Peter and the Popes, and the large branches are the bishops, and the smaller branches the priests, and the fruit upon that tree are the faithful throughout the world; and the branch, says He, that is cut off from that tree shall wither away, produce no fruit, and is only fit to be cast into the fire-----that is, damnation.

This is plain speaking, my dear people; but there is no use in covering the truth. I want to speak the truth to you, as the Apostles preached it in their time-----no salvation out of the Church of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

V.

Now, which is that Church? There are now three hundred and fifty different Protestant Churches in existence, and almost every year one or two more are added; and besides this number there is the Catholic Church.

Now, which of all these varied Churches is the one Church of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? All claim to be the Church of Jesus.

But, my dear beloved people, it is evident no Church can be the Church of Jesus except the one that was established by Jesus. And when did Jesus establish His Church? When? When He was here upon earth. And how long ago is it that Christ was upon earth? You know our Christian era dates from Him. He was born many centuries ago. That is an historical fact admitted by all. He lived on earth thirty-three years. That was about nineteen centuries before our time. That is the time Christ established His Church on earth. Any Church, then, that has not existed thus long, is not the Church of Jesus Christ, but is the institution or invention of some man or other; not of God, not of Christ, but of man.


[Kind of sounds like John Holdeman, doesn't it?]

"We do a lot of excavating and underground piping and electrical work, a lot of places require documentation. "

Yes, I know TM, you weren't bragging at all, I was just kinda harassing you, but, I'm wondering just why my
FIL caught holdeman hell for bring a camera into a reunion, when it was NOT a holdeman reunion, although,
where two or three holdemans are, it shall be governed by holdemans.
And, I understand the need for documentation work needed, as our company does it to. But, did you have to
get clearance through the preachers to purchase a camera? I'm also betting this camera does more "work"
than just documenting,,, no?

I forgot the website in case you want to read it:

http://www.catholictradition.org/Classics/true-church.htm

That article posted by GM almost makes me laugh, especially the part about the tree and the branches being popes, bishops, and priests, since there's no mention in the Bible about popes or priests. This fact alone tells you that Father Damen would never be able to substantiate his statements with scripture.

It becomes painfully evident that the claim to being the "one true church" is just that...a claim. Whether it is the Catholic church, the Holdeman church, or the Church of Qwerty, it makes no difference. It is just a claim. And not a single one of them can provide scripture that backs their claim, since the Bible doesn't mention anything about denominations at all. Once a church becomes an organized denomination, it automatically loses it's status as the "one true church" since there is no such thing as a denomination mentioned in the Bible.

Just observing, but both Father Damen and John Holdeman came about preaching that they were the "one true church" at about the same point in history. There were also a lot of other denominations that got their start in the mid 1800's. I think it was just the thing to do back then.