To not derail the "Coming Rapture" thread I'm responding with a new post.

Scott said,

Where did the idea of "a second chance" become a bad thing.

It is actually a very biblical principle that God gave to Moses in Numbers 9. If you had been on a distant road or contaminated by death there was the second chance passover that was made for those people.

"This is copied from the first link provided below"

Even if a person has failed to fulfill a certain aspect of his or her mission in life because s/he has been "contaminated by death" (i.e., in a state of disconnection from the divine source of life) or "on a distant road" from his people and G-d, there is always a Second Passover in which s/he can make good on what s/he has missed out.

The Second Passover thus represents the power of teshuvah -- the power of return. Teshuvah is commonly translated as repentance, but it is much more than turning a new leaf and achieving forgiveness for past sins. It is the power to go back in time and redefine the past.

Some great links in understanding why these Jewish holidays are kept.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2900/jewish/Never-Too-Late.htm"

and

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/470865/jewish/Pesach-Sheni.htm

Good contribution Mark.


Lets do an experiment. Lets invite all intrepid ones to step forward and declare that they have not needed, and will not ever need a second chance regarding their eternal destiny. Now thats courage folks.

Look Mark, blah blah your religion.

In material things, which can't be disregarded, there's people in this world that have never had a chance, let alone a second chance. What do you do with that example? Is that not one to learn from?

And the only way a person will ever deserve a second chance, is to create the true need for it, which the life of religion can never do.....it only experiences what itself is about. If you want a second chance in that, that's just a double death sentence. And how can you have a second chance at something you don't believe or care to believe.

You want a second chance, go put your beliefs on the line. And leave them there until they're nothing to you anymore or they've hurt you. Then you will have earned a second chance.

Brent

Brent,

You claim that I have religion. I'm trying to figure out how it it possible to come to that conclusion when I did not claim anything by my own writing in this post.

All I did was was post a scripture (that I didn't write) and post a link of an article (that I didn't write) and made a comment based on what was written and by doing that, makes me a religious blah blah?!?!

The only thing I can figure out is you are the first one to take Scott's challenge to step forward and say you will not ever need a second chance.

If you are doing a poll I was given many more than 2 chances. I fell in the gutter many times. (When I was told I was known by the company I kept and saw the pig get up and walk away.) However I do know that God died for sinners and he can deliver us from sin as well.
Herman

"The only thing I can figure out is you are the first one to take Scott's challenge to step forward and say you will not ever need a second chance."

Mark,

I'm not the one that don't need a second chance because I already have a religion that don't need a second chance like it appears with your's. What do you want a second chance for if your religion is as good as you tout it to be, pray tell? And why do you preach the Christian lottery theology of second chance if everyone already has the right religion, because just ask them, they have it already. Or are you preaching second chance to them to give them a chance at your religion? Look Mark, I know how much I needed a second chance, and that's why I don't want a second chance in religion, and am warning you not to give the second chance away in a lottery of religion and kill people's souls with it. No one is going to get a second chance at anything they haven't earned or don't want or until hell burns all that lottery theology out of them.

Brent

Brent, I have been wanting to ask you several questions for some time now. You are always talking against religion and to some degree I can understand what you are saying, but is it possible to serve God without religion? In the context of how the word 'religion' is used today? Can you define the word 'religion' as you see it?

Btw, the world is full of second chances....

"Brent, I have been wanting to ask you several questions for some time now. You are always talking against religion and to some degree I can understand what you are saying, but is it possible to serve God without religion? In the context of how the word 'religion' is used today? Can you define the word 'religion' as you see it?

Btw, the world is full of second chances...."

GM,

I have some urgent things today so I can take off tomorrow. But I won't forget your post and will get back to you as soon as possible.

Btw, the world is full of no second chances too.

Think about what that says about the second chances, and do you want to take a chance on that?!

Brent

I suppose that what we're speaking of here is having more opportunities than one at restoration. Salvation is about restoration! Jesus came to restore that which had been lost! That's what He said.

My question is this; what is going on in our minds when we think in terms of more than one opportunity! Is it possibile that we have many opportunities to get it right in order that everything can be resolved and we are fully restored by one Christ? I have had many more than one opportunity in my own life, and the opportunities continue to occur.

What if the real truth is that this God of mercy and grace who's been revealed in Christ Jesus, yields as many opportunities that it requires to get our real and full attention. He desires that we fall in unconditional Love with Him by which process He restores us. Only in Love and by Love can mankind be restored and everything be resolved!

If some travel in somewhat religious ways for a while, so long as their goal is full restoration by Christ Jesus, then let us not harshly judge their religion. Once false religion begins to individually hinder us from our journey into Christ Jesus, then let us allow the full measure to fall off away from us.

True religion unconditionally loves the down trodden and fatherless etc. along with accompanying benevolent actions; in this way our true religion lavishes our love upon Christ Jesus!

What I may think of as religious and none-productive rather than real and life-changing, others may yet desperately need in order to hold on to the idea of God at all.

The end goal is for each believer to come into the image of Jesus!

We reveal ourselves when we reveal or accuse one another.

"The end goal is for each believer to come into the image of Jesus!"

It is? I have heard statements like that all my life. "need to become Christlike", "What would Jesus do?", "come into the image of Christ", etc. But I am questioning that one abit. Does Jesus want us to be like him. What version of Him, the Heavenly or the Jesus that was on Earth? Or..... did he come down to be like us? Does he even want us to BE LIKE HIM? Is grace still needed? Is it even possible to be Christlike?


Think about it for a min.






***Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, ***

" Is it even possible to be Christlike? "


Qwerty says it is!

" Is it even possible to be Christlike? "

Here is what I find interesting Xep, you, TR TM, Holdeman Hank, and almost all holdemans accuse many
(especially me) of being un-Chrislike, how is it that you can make those charges when you question
whether anyone including holy holdemans can be Chrislike? Or even know what it is? How can you charge
others of an un-Christ-like attitude?

"Brent, I have been wanting to ask you several questions for some time now. You are always talking against religion and to some degree I can understand what you are saying, but is it possible to serve God without religion? In the context of how the word 'religion' is used today? Can you define the word 'religion' as you see it?"

GM,

First lets break religion down into its bare thing. We've spread all the religions of the world on a table. Which guy you want to be GM? The guy asking question, or the guy hearing them? Well to be more realistic, lets just be what each of us appear to be right now. You be GM and I'll be Brent. This don't mean anything because I'm writing a kind of parable here. You and I are standing over the table of religion, and I ask you, which religion is the best or is the true one. Remember GM, everyone is born under some nature of a religious government. Of course our eyes fall on the Holdeman religion, not because we may think it's the best or true, but because we were born in that religion. Because this circumstance has opened the door for vision, you are kind of suddenly put on the spot. Well you don't want to choose your own religion {that's to obvious}, so lets say GM, you choose the Baptist religion as the best. Well this opens up all kinds of doors to trap you. First the question I can ask you is why is our Holdeman religion not as good as the Baptist, why didn't we get as good a religion? Why is the Baptist religion better, is there any real proof for that anywhere? They all look equal on the table. What is any claim now to any of them? Why were the Baptist born with the right religion and no one else was? Why can't we keep our own Holdeman religion? What makes the Baptist so special and we all have to go to their religion? Well if this isn't true, we also can't say, well most are right and these few are not good, and scorn our own Holdeman religion, and do it by some distinction that don't mean a hill of beans to the religious table. If our religion testifies against us, then religion testifies against everyone. On the table there's no better or worse religion. Is God God then if there is? I've come to the conclusion its best to stay in the religion we were born in unless we want to overcome. This may involve going to another religion for awhile, and then another one maybe, and if we begin to settle in and think it is finally a better religion, then I concede after awhile we are legal there, especially if our children are born in the religion we think is better, and no more would we be subject, to say our old Holdeman religion. But I've preached for a long time just to overcome it all.

GM, I wrote this fast because I have no time, but I'd like maybe to talk more on this later.

Brent

It seems to me that when we Love unconditionally and purely we are being Christ-like in it's truest sense. We have a baptism of Love to receive and a whole lot of overcoming to do to get us there!

Indeed, we can become legal at any juncture concerning our religious formulas. That's a very good and accurate observation, Brent.

"Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved", this in itself is a formula that leads toward His righteousness being formed in us. One must begin somewhere or we one never begins. There are true and accurate formulas which all pass with the using. If they do not pass with the using we will certainly get bogged down in them.

When the perfect thing comes which is unconditional and perfect Love, then those things that are inpart which lead up to His Love revealed in us, simply pass away (of course if we allow this to occur). Perfect Love in us makes the allowance for this to occur!

To believe in and practice any precept for one's righteousness or approval by God, is a lesser formula in quality than the one named above.

Yes indeed, some formulas are more acurate and life-giving than are others. Some formulas are found in certain places while the same formulas are not found in other places. If these qualities are what is lying on the table when we use the term [religions], then we do make quality decisions from time to time.

Christ manifesting through us is a far better term.



When this world is full of His Love and all men are preferring one's fellows over oneself, then He is here and He is actually returned! When men learn war no more and we dwell in the freedom of His peace and forgiveness toward all, He is come!

To me religion is a bad word. I cannot get it down to 4 letters, But it is a set of rules set by man. Others may have entire different view or have a different meaning to that word. I want to follow God. and his Son Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Yes I want to listen to other people and there views. However to follow God is most important.

Good post above, Doug.

I see nothing wrong with religion. In fact, everyone has a religion, even if that religion is atheism or agnosticism, or anti-religion. The key is to have a religion that you can defend historically and intellectually, with honesty, and that truly flows from yourself.

Brent makes the argument above that "they all look equal on the table". To some extent, that's true. It's amazing how little the differences are, especially within the various Christian churches. What does that say about us Christians who are willing to split hairs over details?

I don't know that I would consider these different denominations (Baptists, Holdemans, etc) to be different religions. They're all Christian. And in that sense, "they all look equal on the table". But if you compare Christianity to Buddhism, Islam, or atheism, then I don't think they all look equal any more.

Thanks,Brent. I agree that religion, referencing here as a Christian denomination, opens the door for a vision of God, however flawed that religious denomination may be. But, I together with you, am gathering from your post that the downside to every organized religion are those things that will testify against us, by that I mean that since we are following another man's conscience, such as J Holdeman, Wesley, etc. and have to live by their interpretation of doctrine, their rules and guidelines, we do not have total freedom of the Spirit
Then we have the never-ending debate of who is right and who is wrong. That's why there is so much church-hopping, they disagree with some things in one church and agree with tings in another church.

The word religion is only used two times in the NT. The term 'a religion' is a fairly recent term. Here is an article that explains Christianity as a religion:

http://www.jescom.co.zw/Theology/christianity.htm

"The key is to have a religion that you can defend historically and intellectually, with honesty,

But BrentD, everyone says that? How do you deal with that. Who's claiming or saying of this is right?

BrentD, writes, "But if you compare Christianity to Buddhism, Islam, or atheism, then I don't think they all look equal any more."

I don't think you understood what I wrote, because all those religions were on the table to.

Brent

Then GM, you understand there's no doubt religious governments are the first door to God? That's why I don't like to speak against any of them. This thing is ordained and of God. And another thing I concede, there are better religious governments. But that wasn't my point. The best religious government is no easier to overcome than the worse religious government. The world is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. So the religious contention that ensues over which is better or worse isn't worth it.

GM, I think you're understanding me.

Brent

do as they say but not as they do

"Do as they say but not as they do."

That's good advice.

We ought rather follow God/Truth rather than men.

One man determined that the earth was not flat and got flattened. He found little agreement.

Where ever humanity is, things are messy.

Yet there is that drive or energy to find agreement.

Jesus spoke much of agreement. He said; that oneness can come even as I and the Father are one. Some strives for this intellectually and others strive for this by quoting many scriptures. All the while, the Spirit of Truth must accomplish this! Unconditional and pure Love has a whole lot to do with this.

Atheists, not only believers have a drive or energy to find agreement. It's innate and it's deep.

Following one another around we shall never [really] agree but following after the Spirit of Truth we shall finally agree! Does anyone agree with this? See there!

I think one of our problems is that we get in far to great a hurry to find agreement. Why? Well, we're tribal by nature. We're communal by nature. We speak of the sientific community. We speak of the wall-street community. We speak of the religious community. We speak of the secular comminity. We even speak of the Wood-Stock comminity. We speak of the Christian community and on and on.

The nature of men is to enjoy a good fight while our drive is to agree, a paradox has surfaced. A funny creation we are. We know how it works.