Doug,
You posted on a thread that Nascar started and I wanted to print it out and i'm not home to do it but I saw it is no longer here. Could you recreate it? My wife & I read it yesterday morning and we talked about it all day. It was about the rich man in hell.

Mark I'm leaving again for Texas to complete more contracts and am going off the air for a few months. Mark I do not remember what post I was responding to but I remember the part on the rich man in Gehenna. Can a post be pulled off the forum?

I have taught on this passage before in the same vein I was in and I suppose I could reinterate it at least to some degree. To tell you the truth I wanted to print it for myself but I didn't. The Spirit of the Lord was upon me when I was writing that!

Maybe at some point we could discuss it further. We're not far from Nashville my man.

Doug,
It was one of the most profound posts that I have read in a long time. We literally talked about it all day. It definitely was anointed and filled in a lot of missing pieces to the puzzle. When the inspiration hits please re-post it.

BTW I don't live in Nashville. My wife and I were visiting two of our children over christmas.

Doug,

You said....."The Spirit of the Lord was upon me when I was writing that!"

I remember reading the post you're referring to.

The "Spirit of the Lord" wasn't "upon you," doug.

It was nothing more than your own frenzied self-rationalizing away of the Scripture.

A lot of people get all excited now days though when someone comes along and speaks falsely in the name of the Lord.

"The "Spirit of the Lord" wasn't "upon you," doug."

Exactly Jerry, you're 100% correct . It was not the spirit of the Lord. Douggie was saying, as I understood it,
the rich man was not in a literal hell, but one he had made up. Hogwash. Its guys like Mark And Scott,
that simply believe every joker that spews something along spiritual lines. That don't test the spirit
against what the Bible says, they simply are filled with awe, and run with it! They don't test it against what
the Bible is saying. The Bible says the rich man WAS in hell.
Grow up Mark, grow up and read the word yourself.

Excellent call Jerry, good post.



I'm not the one wanting Dougs stuff, Forum ,, Mark is.

guys February 21 2008, 11:15 AM


The law on the books in America concerning sex with animals is with sheep. Sheep will conceive with a human being but the birth is always stillborn, for what it's worth.


-doug



This is a comment that Doug made back in Feb. on the "What's with you guys?" thread. He actually believed that humans could conceive with sheep.

It's obvious that anyone who believes that is either not very bright or does not allow themselves to think critically.

Naz,

I don't care what people believe. Even you and I have our theological differences.

But when the kooks start uttering their nonsense AND naming and claiming that "the Lord" told them this or that, then that's what I personally have a problem with. And I figure that if the kooks got what it takes to speak falsely in the name of the Lord, then I got what it takes to call them out on it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Doug said to Mark: "Mark I do not remember what post I was responding to but I remember the part on THE RICH MAN IN GEHENNA.....The Spirit of the Lord was upon me when I was writing that!"

Now the following is Doug's exact quote that he claims was made while "the Spirit of the Lord was upon him".....

Doug said: "Gehenna is a man-made hell, and GEHENNA IS THE HELL THIS PARTICULAR RICH MAN HAD MADE AND WAS NOW IN."

- - - - -

* The rich man wasn't in Gehenna, he was in Hades. It seems like whatever "spirit" which was REALLY upon Doug needs to brush up a little on their Greek.

Gehenna is NOT a "man-made hell" either. GOD created the heavens and the earth and all things in it.

Very sad indeed! I sure hope that Doug isn't accepting any money from anyone 4 this kind of stuff.

On the "Doug's human sheep thread," this is part of what doug said when I confronted him on his comment.

It was common folk knowledge back where I grew up but maybe someone would like to research it. I remember a man telling me that he had seen the fetus at birth

This is a man who believes anything, no matter how bogus, that anyone tells him.

This must explain why he expects others to accept all the crap he puts forth as truth.

What a preacher! LOL.

"This is a man who believes anything, no matter how bogus, that anyone tells him. This must explain why he expects others to accept all the crap he puts forth as truth. What a preacher! LOL."

rofl

"GEHENNA IS THE HELL THIS PARTICULAR RICH MAN HAD MADE AND WAS NOW IN."


This is the line I was disputing Jerry, this is hogwash, it's not Biblical at all. And you got somebody like Mark so excited he's got to talk about it all day? Sheeze, whats he going to do when Doug shows him how to do sheep !!

CWL (choking with laughter)

Good one NAS

"And you got somebody like Mark so excited he's got to talk about it all day? Sheeze, whats he going to do when Doug shows him how to do sheep !!"

Nas,

I know that the thread you started is now gone, but from what I remember, you wanted to hear about what people thought of the afterlife and the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke chapter 16.

Well, I do not believe that Jesus was telling a parable in Luke chapter 16, as many today proclaim.

And unlike Doug, who said that "Water is the symbol for Spirit and water is what this rich man called for," I believe that the rich man was calling for literal water to cool his literal tongue because he was literally being tormented in a literal flame, just like the Bible actually says.

I don't know if Doug (by saying that) was trying to imply that the rich man WAS going to be reconciled/restored to the Lord because the rich man had asked for water ("Spirit" in Doug's mind) or not, but that is not what I believe. This is the kind of methodology that the Doug types use to create WHAT THEY WANT TO BELIEVE to be true, instead of believing what IS true (what the Bible actually says without adding all the "well, what this really means is that, and what that really means is this" stuff).

THANK YOU forum visitor!!! It's just as good as I remembered.

"Its guys like Mark And Scott, that simply believe every joker that spews something along spiritual lines. "


EVERY JOKER??? ...not accepting what you are spewing! LOL!

Nascar,

It is very interesting to me that in spite of the very last paragraph where Doug brought out the verse that for each idle word we will be judged, that you would insist on a literal hell and desire it to be so. According to how you judged and spoke evil not only of Doug but also of me in reference to "doing sheep" (is beyond what even an unbeliever would accuse me of) would land you in the very place you insist to have. The truth is, that by your own words you are judged...not just in the hereafter but in the here and now. If you knew the power of your words or the consequences of your words you would never make the bold statements you made, including the ones, "that these words are not from God".


I know what it is like to have the peace of God flood my soul and what it is like to have the "spirit" to bear witness when truth is proclaimed.


I know that this post of Doug's bore witness to more people than just myself. Everyone in the house where we were staying was blessed by it when I read it to them.


I have no desire to serve the God that either one of you have been portraying. I am however immensely in love with the one whom I have a personal relationship. There is no torment or fear, in the presence of love.

Mark,

Y r u getting so uptight?

Since your post was addressed to BOTH Nascar and I, I'll go ahead and take it upon myself to correct it.

You said....."You insist on a literal hell and desire it to be so."

Ok hot shot, would you like to show me where I ever said that I "DESIRE for it to be so"? Just for your information, I have stated on this forum the exact opposite to your false accusation.

You said.....you judged and spoke evil not only of Doug but also of me in reference to "doing sheep"

Another false accusation. I never once mentioned you or sheep. As far as Doug goes, I don't take back anything I said about him. You just can't handle the truth, which is that he speaks falsely in the name of the Lord.

Mark, you are just one among the millions of gullible people today who will fall for just about anything. I was not shocked at all when you were giving your hearty thumbs up approval to the phoney preacher in Lakeland Florida who was kicking people in the face because "the Lord told him to". You are totally deceived, and you and your kind are mocking God with your foolishness.

Ill go along with the idea that this is a real account and this hell is a literal hell. "The Bible said it and I believe it!"

But would someone please explain the bosom of Abraham. If hell is literal here, then so is the bosom of Abraham. The setting is pre-cross and both the rich man and Lazarus died before salvation, right?

If thats the case, then Abraham was no different than Lazarus. Abraham was also being held in some form in the afterlife. Was Abraham also in his own literal bosom or is this a symbolic term. If its symbolic then how do we know the hell, the flame and the water were not also symbolic?



If we interpret the one to be literal doesn't the other one have to be literal too? Im just having a real problem envisioning Abraham inside his own bosom. Anybody got any ideas?

Jerry,

I took your name off the post because you were correct that some of the post did not concern you and for that I apologize. I did not distinguish what was addressed to you and what was addressed to Nas. I think you know the part that concerned you.

Mark,

Thanks

Hello Eliora,

"But would someone please explain the bosom of Abraham. If hell is literal here, then so is the bosom of Abraham."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Yes Eliora, "the bosom of Abraham" is just as literal as everything else that Jesus mentioned regarding the rich man and Lazarus, and simply means "the LAP of Abraham". Lazarus was carried away by the angels to Abraham's LAP (bosom), and the rich man saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus ON his LAP.

U c, Eliora, sometimes translating from 1 language 2 another can cause problems because there r often several different ways 2 translate a word. The very same Greek word which was translated "bosom" n Luke chapter 16 is also found used n John 13:23 where it mentions that 1 of Jesus' disciples was leaning on Jesus' bosom. If u look closely at what I wrote above, u will notice that I capitalized the word "ON" also. That is because it can b translated as "on", "in", or "at". So, u can c how the manner in which something is translated from 1 language 2 another can cause confusion 4 those who choose not 2 research the matter.

Another example of this very thing can be found in reference to the way some translators have translated the Greek word "Hades" as Hell, which has caused confusion 4 some. This topic has been well covered on this forum. [I thought that I would mention that just n case u r new here. If u R new here, then welcome 2 the forum. At your request, I would gladly point out 2 u where u can find additional information on this forum regarding the Greek word "Hades".]

22* And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abrahams bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23* And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24* And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

______





Hell in this verse is



86 adev hades {hah'-dace}



from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc



AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11



1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions

2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead

3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell



In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions,

a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common

receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of

the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.





Now notice the use of Paradise: Lu 23:43* And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.



Now what "paradise" is, and where it was or is in the schemes of theological conformity remains to be interpreted by bible study, but according to the strongs, paradise was in the same hades as the rich man was in.



3857 paradeisov paradeisos {par-ad'-i-sos}



of Oriental origin cf 06508; TDNT - 5:765,777; n m



AV - paradise 3; 3



1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting

ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals,

were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished

with towers for the hunters

2) a garden, pleasure ground

2a) grove, park

3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be

the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but

some understand this to be a heavenly paradise

4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early

church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt

before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the

heavens, but above and beyond the world

5) heaven

Mark

Your concerned about MY idle words? Hello?? Mark, see that lovely blue planet off to your right? Land there.
Its earth my boy, its planet earth ! You see , I'm not the one distorting the Holy Bible. Its you guys. I'm
not the one telling everybody there is no hell, a good God wouldn't send anyone to hell. When it comes to
idle words, you guys are taking Gods Holy word and trying to get others beliving your junk. It's YOUR idle
words also my boy, listen to me, what makes you think you and your god, Doug, get to escape being judged
with your Bible distortion? Hello?

"I know what it is like to have the peace of God flood my soul and what it is like to have the "spirit" to bear witness when truth is proclaimed."

Here we go again child, this "Spirit" your talking about had better line up with Gods Holy Word, or you
got yourself a bad one dude. Sorry, your "no hell" junk doesn't hold water, the Bible is VERY clear about
that.

"I know that this post of Doug's bore witness to more people than just myself. Everyone in the house where we were staying was blessed by it when I read it to them. "

Ok, so we have a new Jim Jones group starting.If I was worried about hell, In guess that kind of news would really excite me too.


"I have no desire to serve the God that either one of you have been portraying"

I'm sure you don't. Ours will tell you he created a hell. Your god, Doug, distorts that Holy Word. Your happy
my boy, stay with your god.


As for the sheep? Well it was once again your god that brought all this sheep bangin stuff up, not me. He
obviously knows all the ins and outs of it, so maybe your new Jim Jones group can figure out what your
leader is talking about.
Thanks for taking Jerrys name off, he was innocent, it is me your out to get child.

I have a question for some of you that believe in a hell that is going to burn forever. If you or I had been born in Iraq or Iran the chance of us becoming Christians is very very small. Luke 12:48 speaks of those that did not know what the master wanted will receive few stripes while those that know more, more will be required of them. It is hard for me to believe that a God who is just will cast millions of people who did not have a snowballs chance in hell of being saved into an everlasting lake of fire. I believe in a God that is just and fair.

Bryon,

Here's your "just and fair" God (don't forget 2 read vs. 28).....

Prov. 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

Prov. 1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

Prov. 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

Prov. 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Prov. 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Prov. 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


* Let's lay the blame where it really belongs. Those who "hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD" will receive God's TRUE justice and fairness, which may or may not be the same as what you or I want it to be.

"Luke 12:48 speaks of those that did not know what the master wanted will receive few stripes while those that know more, more will be required of them."

This is why those many,many,many on this site who CLAIM they are teachers and preachers had better think
about the idle words they are accusing others of, what awaits these false ones is severe.
Byron, you're not informed by the news media of the many wonderful christian servicemen who DO hand out
tracts, who DO minister to the Iraq children and adults. We have a young man from our church who does
just that, along with many others from different faiths. It is a group of many that have formed a ministry
to bring bibles and the word to them. The gospel IS being carried out in Iraq,but, you'll never hear about
these guys.Its not news.

Good post Jerry, dang dude, you know your stuff!

Jerry with all due respect, and not meaning to cause a war, but the book of proverbs, and especially the verses you are quoting, are pointing toward wisdom, and the gaining of wisdom through providence.

Wisdom may be obtained the easy way, by learning and listening to unbrainwashed conscience, and the voice of trusted elders.

or learned by getting burned from "passing on and being punished by provedence".

But to assign hellfire to the simple "fool" who refuses wisdom, mentioned in proverbs, well is that not adding a little more then intended?

May God richly Bless your day!

Byron, my view is not as severe as you put it. God is totally fair and equitable and true justice with reign in the end. I take my view from CRI as follows:

God expects nothing more of any person then he/she has knowledge of and there will be degrees of reward and punishment in the hereafter. In my view, it is not imperative that all exactly know the name of Jesus Christ and have made a conscious decision for Him. Every (responsible) person has a built in knowledge of right and wrong and God recognizes man's response to this. Romans 1-3 tells us in what way God reveals Himself to man, and this is enough to make all men responsible to God.

Rom. 1:20 tells us that God's invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, or by nature and creation itself.

Rom. 2:11-15 tells us God reveals Himself to man through his conscience.... accusing or excusing him.

Rom. 3:1-2 tells us God has committed His Word to man, and if we are aware of it, we are responsible to the Word. Further, I believe it is impossible for man to entirely know all of God, His judgements, His mercy, His fairness, etc., but I do know what I am responsible for.

I do not hold to the belief that all who have not heard of Jesus Christ will end up in hell. Man will be judged on what he/she knows, and how he responds to that. This is the view I hold for myself and I am not a teacher.

Hello Fred,

"But to assign hellfire to the simple "fool" who refuses wisdom, mentioned in proverbs, well is that not adding a little more then intended?"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Although it was not my intention to specifically address the hellfire issue by posting the Scripture I did, there's plenty of other Scriptures that do address the hellfire issue. In this portion of Scripture, wisdom personified is speaking and points out that there will come a time when those who hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord shall NOT find wisdom even though they will seek it. Do you have any idea of when that will be?

* Fred, I definitely wouldn't assign eternal life to the fools mentioned in Proverbs chapter one who did not fear the Lord. The following Scriptures are a sample of what you will find all over the place in the Bible. But I don't see in Scripture the same type of lingo being used in reference to fools who hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding. (Prov.9:10)

Surely his salvation is nigh them that fear him; that glory may dwell in our land. (Psalm 85:9)

For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. (Psalm 103:11)

As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him. (Psalm 103:12,13)

But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him. (Psalm 103:17)

Wow I love this verse Jerry:

As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him. (Psalm 103:12,13)

The one thing that particularly struck me about the Holdeman people is the lack of paternal pity found in there.

I don't understand the eternal fire thing, but I think, that paradise was opened at the crucifixion and at that point, the souls (both just and unjust) rested awaiting the end of time and the resurrection.

So the literal place described as Abraham's bosom, is done away with, and the literal torment is also done away with while all of the souls of the dead are awaiting judgment, and eternal rewards.

"there was a certain beggar, there was a certain rich man" does not lend itself for precluding it is a parable. It must have actually happened.

Yet now, well look...

11* ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12* And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13* And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14* And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15* And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

One must reconcile both Abrams bosom, and the eternal judgment found here. (not that I necessarily have)

Jerry,

In/ON I'm still having trouble seeing Abraham ON his own bosom because he too would have been in the holding place of the dead. (just keeping it "literal" - concerning the facts and avoiding metaphors.)

I'm not entirely new to the forum, I read off and on and that being mostly off.

The destination of the beast, the false prophet, the devil, death and hell, whosoever was not found written in the book of life, the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, is the lake of fire burning with brimstone ( a harbor of purification )

the lake 3041 - probably from G3040 (through the idea of nearness of shore) nearness of harbor or haven, shore

fire 4442 - to purify

brimstone 2303 - divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease

The definition of the lake of fire burning with brimstone somehow doesnt give the same proverbial images of a burning hell fire tormenting its occupants forever and ever. My understanding of the word purify is to make something better than what it originally was, or to burn out the dross as in the refining of gold and silver.

Broad is the way that leads to destruction and many "go in there" as opposed to the few that find the way that leads to life. I was taught this means most are going to hell and few are going to heaven.

It seems odd that the word LAKE is used to describe their destination. I find it interesting that a lake is smaller than a sea and a sea is smaller than an ocean. If we're keeping everything literal it would seem that the above mentioned should be cast into an OCEAN of fire and brimstone.

Is it possible that "thngs r knot all wayz az tHey seam?"

Right on Eliora! An eternally torturing God! Wow! The crowning deception of the ages. Satan's plan to persuade thinking people to hate God. Every noble inclination on this planet informs us that correction is to restore and not to torture. Sheesh!

Fred,

[The one thing that particularly struck me about the Holdeman people is the lack of paternal pity found in there.]

Well Fred, what the verse actually says is....."as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that FEAR HIM".....If you do not FEAR the Holdemans, then maybe that's why you don't sense their paternal pity.

- - - - - - - - - -

Fred, I have a question for you. Have you changed your views regarding the eternal fire/punishment in the last year or so? It seems like you are talking a little different now than before, unless I am reading you wrong.

Eliora,

"I'm still having trouble seeing Abraham ON his own bosom because he too would have been in the holding place of the dead. (just keeping it "literal" - concerning the facts and avoiding metaphors.)"

You may be having trouble because you think that "Abraham's lap/bosom" is some PLACE other than Abraham's literal lap/bosom.

U c, Eliora, Abraham (who had a lap) was gathered to his people in Sheol/Hades when he died. Sheol/Hades was the holding place of the dead, not Abraham's lap. And Lazarus was carried away to the lap of Abraham who was in Hades.

- - - - - - - - - -

"It seems odd that the word LAKE is used to describe their destination. I find it interesting that a lake is smaller than a sea and a sea is smaller than an ocean. If we're keeping everything literal it would seem that the above mentioned should be cast into an OCEAN of fire and brimstone."

Eliora, God can make a lake as big as He wants. I have a lake behind my house that I would be willing to attempt to swim across if someone offered me enough money to do so. But I wouldn't attempt the same task if it was Lake Superior.

Well Fred, what the verse actually says is....."as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that FEAR HIM".....If you do not FEAR the Holdemans, then maybe that's why you don't sense their paternal pity.


Jerry, I am a sort of backwoods kind of guy, and enjoy my life. I also like being right. And I like watching the oppressor squirm, if you know what I mean? (I suspect you do too)

Anyway, I don't fear the the holdies, actually I don't fear anyone, But I was thinking about the end times, and though i do not have much more than a clue of how it will unfold, I still, and nevertheless tend to believe in a literal 'mark of the beast'. SO I was sitting here thinking of what I would do if they did away with the American dollar, and made an electronic money that you had to join a club to use, and the joining also included a pledge against God.

The times are changing, and it may well not mean anything but another era, but it may mean the last system is upon us! god have Mercy!

When the beast has his army of soldiers going house to house to confiscate the guns and precious metal, and offers you a choice for an easy way out by pledging into his kingdom or a firing squad for refusing, well that is where "fear" shows it's ugly head!


- - - - - - - - - -

Fred, I have a question for you. Have you changed your views regarding the eternal fire/punishment in the last year or so? It seems like you are talking a little different now than before, unless I am reading you wrong.

Jerry, if you have read me, you will notice I am never much "thus sayeth the Lord" on end times things. It is not because I don't think God revealed them to us, but I am lazy to do the mental spiritual work.

I have several times in my past sought an answer of peace form God, but the sacrifice of time and fasting makes it need to be "upon me" therefore I just don't care, for end times only matter if you disobey God. If you sit centered in his will, who cares how it works out?

If someone offers a verse and an opinion, then i am apt to offer another that tends to slam it, if there is one, kinda like the mouse in a maze, going down all the paths till he finds the one that reconciles!

So my answer to you is, no I haven't changed my views one bit, because my view is the bible is right when it reconciles without contradiction, but rather you read more into my writing than I intended to put into it when I have at times tossed out another side of a theory that doesn't reconcile properly.

Jerry,

"God can make a lake as big as He wants."

Of course He can. But he usually uses a specific word for a specific reason.

Eliora,

"But he usually uses a specific word for a specific reason."

Well Eliora, maybe God purposely didn't use the word "sea" or "ocean" because they contain SALT which is known to have healing properties, and God wants those who are cast into the Lake of Fire to be tormented day and night forever and ever instead of being healed. lol

See what people can do by playing games with words, Eliora? They can back up whatever it is that they WANT to believe just by playing word games. Eliora, you and I won't be on the same page very much when it comes 2 Scripture. Do you have any more questions regarding the rich man and Lazarus?





- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -





Eliora, do you believe that God is "just"?

If so, do you believe that God was displaying that attribute towards the innocent babies and elderly men and women who He commanded His people to kill (as recorded in the book of Joshua)?

If so, in what manner was that "just" according to your own definition of the word?

I [am] leaving as I said next week and I thought I was remaning off the forum until I left for Texas.

I do not mean to bring on another rash of comment but maybe that is one way of sorting through some things.

Jesus went to Hell or Hades after the cross as well but He did not suffer any fire. There is a gulf fixed between the bosom of Abraham and the fires. Jesus preached the gospel after His death to spirits of men and women of yore. His word was perfect! His word is still perfect! His word shall always be perfect! "The same man that can bridle his tongue is a perfect man, it says." By the time the tongue is restored the rest of the body has already been restored by the Spirit of God! That tongue of ours is the last member in our bodies to be restored by the Spirit of the Lord.

In Hades or Hell the sufferings of Jesus were over. He had been completed or made perfect by His sufferings! He had overcome the world!

Acts 2:25-28 says this: For David said concerning Him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face for He is on my right hand that I should not be moved. Therefore did my heart rejoice and my tongue was glad, moreover my flesh shall rest in hope because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell, neither wilt thou suffer thy Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou hast made me full of joy with thy countenance.

Jesus is the pattern and the way. We all go to Hell as did He, it is there we find out if we truly have overcome or if burning is required and needed. He said that He had come to restore what had been lost! All things can be resolved and restored in this time of glorious Grace!

Jesus went to Hell or Hades after his death. The rich man indeed went to Hades or Hell as well, [I am indeed sorry that I techically mis-spoke, we indeed ought to speak accurately].

This is the same Hell that Jesus went to, but the fire the rich man experienced in Hades was a fire that the tongue kindleth. Hades is a place, Gehenna is the fire. This fire is likened to that fire that burns continually at the outskirts of Jerusalem in Jesus' day. The one has carried his impurities into Hades while the other one was made perfect by His sufferings. We can fellowship His sufferings and be made into His image.

The fires of Gehenna are in Hades; these fires do [not] have to be experienced as it was in the case of Jesus. A gulf had been fixed! Jesus was insulated from the fire we might say.

One's word must be made perfect by the Spirit of the Lord. Such a small thing as the tongue can kindle a huge, huge fire! The member of the body that offends is better to be cut off than to send us into the fire.

The mouth speaks from the abundance of the heart. When we open our mouths we reveal our hearts. I'll say that again; when we open our mouths we reveal our hearts! Our mouth or tongue sets the course of our lives on fire to the good or to the evil; that fire is Gehenna. This is accurately spoken.

Our tongue dumps those things that are in our hearts right out into the public domain. We reveal ourselves. We are an epistle that can be freely read.

Why did the rich man desire [water] for only his tongue rather than for his whole body if the tongue was not the offending member? There is more here than meets the eye, my friends. Let us be careful of idle words. The tongue makes a pathway in which we now walk.

The Spirit of God alone can control the tongue of mankind. No man can tame the tongue even though mankind can tame all manner of beasts. The anointing of God lies in the truth that He alone can control our tongue! He alone is the Lord and Master! He masters the tongue; that is something that no man can do.



Mark; if you will email me I'll send you what you basically asked for.

[Why did the rich man desire [water] for only his tongue rather than for his whole body if the tongue was not the offending member?]


No, the tongue was not the offending member.

The tongue symbolically represents the Holy Spirit, and the rich man in the flame asked for his tongue to be cooled because he was actually on fire for the Lord with his enthusiasm.

But the LORD'S will prevailed, and NOT the rich man's desire to diminish his enthusiasm, thus, the rich man's tongue was not cooled.

It is said that the rich man was tormented.

What this really means is that the rich man still had an on-going struggle between doing his own will and doing the Lord's will.

But HalleluYAH, the Lord's will prevailed!

The Lord blesses those who serve Him with health, wealth, and prosperity.

The rich man symbolically represents the one who truly served the Lord, and the beggar symbolically represents the one who did not truly serve the Lord.

But praise the Lord for his mercy and forgiveness to all.

Emollent;

That's quite a twist on the thing. Is that alittle like saying that Jesus was actually Lucifer the deceiver, and that Lucifer was actually Jesus?

That may be close to the argument that the pharisees and scribes were making. These said that Jesus did miracles by the power of the chief of the devils.

Indeed God's will for us is that we would be restored in every area of our lives. The Spirit of God is the spokesman of God, but this passage is speaking of the tongue of a selfish, greedy, and grasping man who had died and had gone to Hades. This man was not holy because he was rich. This man had first a heart problem and then a tongue problem.

Our God does desire to bless His people at all levels to the degree our soul prospers in and by Him!

guys February 21 2008, 11:15 AM

The law on the books in America concerning sex with animals is with sheep. Sheep will conceive with a human being but the birth is always stillborn, for what it's worth.

-doug


It was common folk knowledge back where I grew up but maybe someone would like to research it. I remember a man telling me that he had seen the fetus at birth


I'm leaving again for Texas to complete more contracts and am going off the air for a few months.


I [am] leaving as I said next week and I thought I was remaning off the forum until I left for Texas.

I do not mean to bring on another rash of comment but maybe that is one way of sorting through some things.






Hey, Doug, when you get back why don't you prepare a field report on Texas Bighorn sheep.

Something about that sounds dangerous. Be careful.

ROFLMAO Sirius !

Eliora, are you planning on answering Uncle Remus' question to you in his last post? I would love to hear what you believe about that. I am referring to Uncle Remus' line of questioning at the end of his last post, regarding God's justice.