<< If you don't believe there is a Hell and that every person is going to be saved anyway then why did Jesus have to die? >>>
Roman 5:18 So then as through one sin (of Adam), there resulted condemnation to ALL men, even so, through one act of righteousness (Jesus), there resulted justification of life to ALL men.
Suppose you ordered your children to not play with matches and then left the house for two hours to buy groceries. You round the bend and see the house is burning. According to the free-will crowd, you as a mother who totally loves your children would let them burn because they had free will, they chose their diobedience, and you will not save them by force.
Let me rewrite Hank's bullsh*t to fit this situation:
" Since Paris cannot force her children to be safe and not play with mataches against their free will, their free choice demands a possibility of burning in the house... Forced love is not love; it is rape. Love always gives "space" to others... Love cannot act coercively, only persuasively..."
Here is the original so you can prove I did not change the sense of anything.
"" Since God cannot force people into heaven against their free will, human free choice demands a hell... Forced love is not love; it is rape. Love always gives "space" to others... Love cannot act coercively, only persuasively..."
This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jan 6, 2009 8:50 AM
Paris, I can fill two pages of scriptures with God's intent to save every one. I have posted them for two years. NEVER got a response, just an attack on my character.
You are forgettin a very important factor here. Jesus did not have to die.
Jesus chose to die.
By the way I personally know a woman that went to the store to get her baby formula and came home to have neighbors hold her as she was forced to watch her house and her husband and 5 children burn to death in front of her, not being allowed to go to them. she watched her baby in his crib fall thru the floor. some of these things that are being discussed are actually theoretical situations that we have no clue how we would act if we were in them.
Last Sun we buried a very good friend that spent 28 yrs in a wheel chair because he worked on a floor cleaner and put the screws in his mouth while he was working on it and got a severe reaction from the cleaner that left a strong healthy man paralyzed for the rest of his life. At 25 he came home from work to find his 2 and 4 yr old boys trying to wake their mommy in the back yard where she had fallen off the back steps and was dead. They had just lost a baby girl a few months before. he remarried and she was unable to have children so they adopted 2 girls. then when his wife was in her 40's they got a surprise and had another son. it was just a few months later that he became paralyzed from the neck down. He eventually regained use of his right arm and some limited use of his left and with the help of his family held a job in the local hardware for 22 yrs. Last yr he got a reaction to his cholestrol meds and ended up nearly completely paralyzed and after a long struggle he died of pnuemonia on New Year's day. We never saw this man without a smile. His children testified that their father taught them how to live no matter what and now he taught them how to die. He asked to be unhooked from life support and spent his last hours with his family telling them how he loved them and God. We felt truly blessed by being able to know this man for the last yr and be a part of a bible study group with him.
He truly showed us that no matter what happens to a person or what life brings that it is possible to live a truly happy life. And when he was having a struggle, he did not hesitate to ask for prayer for help dealing with the things he needed to.
I think we are forgetting a very important part of God. He really does give us a choice. He does not force himself on us. He wants us to love him because we want to, not because we have to.
Having my children all grown and gone now except for one that still lives here but is seldom at home, I am learning a new set of lessons. We can teach our children to be christians but we cannot force them to do what we think they should, nor do we have the capacity to make their life decisions for them. We can guide and be there but in the end the final decision is still theirs. They have to go thru things on their own, there is no way for us to do it for them no matter whether we try to or not. It simply cannot be done. One of my oldest thinks that she can try to keep her younger siblings from making the same mistakes she has made and tries to keep them on the straight and narrow and hasn't yet been able to let go and recognise that she simply cannot do that for them. She can tell them her experiences and how she dealt with them but in the end, her siblings still have to make their own choices.
I think this is kinda what God does with us often times. He lets us know that he is near, but waits for us to make the decision to depend on him and not ourselves.
<< You are forgettin a very important factor here. Jesus did not have to die.
<br>
Jesus chose to die.>>>
Locklady, that is totally untrue, but you have been told that so often that you believe it is scripture.
The Law (which is an expression of God's nature) holds that if a man dig a pit (place a tree of death in the garden), and an ox (a dumb naive man) fall in it, the owner of the pit (God) has to redeem the price of the ox. That is God's law. God binds Himself to perfect integrity. Hitler said if you tell a lie long enough, people would believe it.
Scott; you are good at twisting what one says into something it does not say. I believe there comes a time in one's life when man becomes responsible to God. I am not referring to children and you know it. Of course, helpless children need to careful scrutiny and care... and forceful guidance. You are misrepresenting what Geisler wrote.
To add, in my view no one person in this world has a better chance at eternal life then another. I have explained my views in the past... every individual ever born is equal before God.
A question for you, Scott. You believe in hell of limited duration; hell that purifies till they give up and say yes God, you are right. If you consider eternal torment to be torture, is your view not also torture till you give up ? Is such not actually coercion? How in your mind is your view different, in this respect, from a biblical view of eternal separation from God.
< You are forgettin a very important factor here. Jesus did not have to die. <br> Jesus chose to die.>>>
Locklady, that is totally untrue, but you have been told that so often that you believe it is scripture. >>
Scott you are reminding me of a Dr that we used to have, that called me Ignorant because I refused to give my children flouride tablets years ago. I wrote him a nice letter telling him kindly that I am not a DR because I chose not to be, not because I am not smart enough. the difference between us is that I have lived with a different set of life instruction books. He was a totally different person in how he treated people after that.
You have no idea of where I am coming from here. I happen to be coming from personal experience in which I was taken from a near total mental collapse and a state of total incapacity. I was driving down the road one day, one of the few days I was capable of doing so in a period of 4-6 mos. And Christ spoke to me very plainly and told me that "I died so you could live eternally". I had to pull off the road until I quit crying so I could see to get home. The people that truly know me will tell you that I have never since gotten that down by my circumstances nor have I ever again doubted my Saviour's love for me. Jeff Geisel of El Campo, TX can tell you the immediate difference it made. He saw me just a few hours later.
I know you are frustrated because you feel like you aren't gettin your point across right at the moment but this is just a little reminder. You are stompin on folks again. Love ya anyway.
Caution: This forum may contain statements and comments that are offensive. If you are easily offended, please exit this forum now.
By using this forum you agree to be accountable and liable for your post's. All postings are the responsibility of the posting participant. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the management.
