This post was written in response to The Liberal Agenda Begins thread, which morphed into a discussion about the death penalty for deviants. Reasons were based on a literal reading of what supposedly God dictated to Moses. I thought maybe I should move this post to a new thread.

Most biblical scholars do not accept that Moses authored the first 5 books of the Bible. Writing that was advanced enough to convey the ideas in those books did not even exist back in 2000 B.C. The type of Hebrew writing found in the earliest manuscripts was not developed until 8 or 9 centuries after the supposed Exodus event. According to scholars, cities and customs described in those books did not exist in 2000 B.C., but are consistent with a much later date when the books are believed to be written. Moses death is also written about in those narratives, which makes it hard for him to write them.

The idea that God dictated all those words to Moses and that he wrote them all down word for word is almost too ridiculous to comment on. Did God develop a set of lungs, and then hover in human form above Moses in the clouds so he could vibrate the air with his voice? Im trying to imagine the dialog between the two. 'Wait just a minute longer, God, I dont quite have the lambskins prepared'. 'Did you get that, Moses? Repeat it back to me so I can make sure'. 'Could you repeat that again, God, my writing instrument just broke.'

The trouble with being taught these stories from childhood on up is that humans seem to have an innate fear of applying the same logical thought process we use so well in most other forms of everyday life. When it is taught from when we are infants that God spoke directly to Moses and he wrote it down word for word, we dont allow our brains to ask, Just how did that process play itself out? The deeply instilled fear planted in our infancy comes to the surface and warns us not to go there. It might lead to hell.

Instead of asking ourselves what is the most likely explanation, the creator dictated all these weird rules to a small group of people wandering the dessert that just happened to match their own cultural practices, such as stoning disobedient children and not boiling a lamb in its mother milk, or did these stories and ideas evolve from generation to generation and slowly develop mythological proportions? But many dont ask those simple questions because the whole thing is a house of cards, and if you take away God dictating to Moses, you have nothing, not even the divinity of Jesus.

The end result is we get people advocating the death penalty for a relatively harmless group of peace loving people.

Stan, I believe the bible, I think you know that so I'll let your post stand with my simply saying that Christ quoted from the law, that is good enough for me.

Now go to a natural based system in your mind. In nature you need producers to grow food and products useful to society.

You also have to have a means of exchange to trade them.

Unfortunately all human relations surrounds the principles of exchange including this sticky subject.


Our country is a young one, having absorbed people from many other cultures, and actually having little culture of it's own. Some say our country is a teenage in the terms of history, but i think an toddler is more appropriate, for the native Americans were the original culture here and have little influence on our society.

We have enjoyed the benefits of central banking and inflation style financing of government as apposed to taxation all our natural lives.


One of the problems with inflation though is you steal from the producers and give it to the sponges. A revenue neutral money system is forced to "pay as you go". If Canada and the Us did that things would have to be way different!

Paying as you go means that there is no deficits, if you want to support unwed mothers and aids hospitals, you take a donation, and literally pay for it.

If you do that count me in, I'll help okay? but my point is that in a natural society that is sustainable, there is so much work involved in eating and caring for your own family that there simply isn't much left for stealing from the rich and giving to the poor.

We enjoy the benefit of our infrastructure built with borrowed money, but that is simply not sustainable, and cannot continue unless we export our inflation, as we have done for a generation.

I am not speaking on what we ought to do, but rather what a sustainable society must do, and will do if it comes to push and shove with natural economy not based on the false promises of the fiat ponzy scheme that is coming down as we speak.

Fred, I certainly dont disagree with your argument for fiscal responsibility. But I do think our society can absorb a certain amount of socialism and still be responsible.

But what does any of this have to do with the authorship of Moses? Are you still trying to justify your argument for capitol punishment for gays and fornicators? If so, it seems to me you are not connecting the dots, or maybe its just me.

I would like to hear a comment on my opening post, beyond, I believe the Bible.

Stan, how do you come up with this idea of "most Biblical scholars"? Maybe most who are intent on disproving God and the scriptures, but I would venture to say there are far more scholars who study the Bible who totally believe in it. As for the writing being more advanced than what presumably existed during the time of Moses, if one first accepts the premise of a God, then what is so hard about believing that he had the capacity to impart information to Moses in a manner that was more advanced than the times they were in? I would think it would be harder to believe that if there was indeed a God that he would have spoken to Moses in a primitive language. The book of Exodus tells the story of a God who provided supernaturally for his people and dealt with them in a way that exceeds human chance. Was this entire history of a people only myth? I find that harder to believe. If there is a God, then I would expect him to do things that are out of the ordinary. This thinking gets quite convoluted when you try to reason your way out of it. If you accept the idea of a God, then you have to accept the idea that he does things that defy human understanding. I find it harder to believe that something as amazing as human beings and the universe exist without some supernatural force in control than I do believing that they are all just tops aspinning and without any grand scheme. You did well to become a mechanical engineer. This thinking seems to me to be quite mechanical and allows for nothing higher or spiritual or supernatural. We are creatures of extremely lofty development. We may have our problems but to imagine there is no spiritual quality to us is more absurd than believing in a God who can dictate to a man.

There is a fledgling idea looking to be expressed in my head. I will attempt. It stands to reason that if this world is in the hands of a Creator then the anything that sustains the creation will be "good" and everything that robs from sustainment is "bad". Fit enviroment in this if you like as an example.

Now this idea can be advanced. Anything that takes away from the future happiness and well being of humanity or any other thing in this world would also be labled as bad. If you think that the ultimate world would be a denuded sphere, then anything headed that way is good. Or the alternative.

Imagine if beastiality were practiced legally or drug use or pedophiles were given free rein. Somewhere is a line folks. There has to be.

Now the idea that wants to fly is this. Does the "law" of the OT support the good of the world or just not affect it in any way. It seems to me that it does.

You have a point, Mutter. I need to be more careful about my word choices. I dont have statistics to back up my claim that most believe that. I should have said, Secular Biblical Scholars, instead of most biblical Scholars.

I guess if you boil it down to 'I believe there is a creator, therefore the Bible must be true', then you can somehow swallow all that OT stuff. But is there no in-between for you? You can look around and see design and purpose in life, and reject the idea that things happen naturally. But to package that rejection with a literal belief in the Bible means you have to believe the creator of the universe was really overly concerned about some silly and cruel stuff, which has nothing to do with natural law. You really have to suspend your disbelief in so many areas. Look at all that crazy stuff in Deuteronomy and tell me it all has its place. Why would anyone want to boil a lamb in its mothers milk, and what about that violates natural law, anyway?


Notg, you ask,

'Now the idea that wants to fly is this. Does the "law" of the OT support the good of the world or just not affect it in any way. It seems to me that it does.'

I would say some supports the good and some supports the bad, and others dont affect it at all. Same with a lot of other ancient writings.



Editing to make quotations clear. Does anyone else get aggravated with this editor? Quotation marks vanish, and carrots make text dissapear!

I don't know what is so vile about Deuteronomy. The way that I look at the OT is that they people were basically cavemen. They were a bit rough. But I think that every single thing he taught them was for a reason. He taught them by what we call object lessons, by lessons that he asked them to act out in their lives so that they would keep order and follow some rules. One of the huge lessons he was teaching them by their dietary laws, their rituals and performances, was to separate clean from unclean, holy from profane, etc. A lot of these things had meaning for them that might be obscured for us today. I don't see what is so strange about a God who would choose a group of people, teach them, deal with them, talk to them teach them and use them. It was his idea that they would be the kind of people who would draw the nations to God by their example. They failed often in this and this set the stage for God to send the Messiah and show all of us that without him we have no hope. And yet since he came it is possible to face the difficulties of life.


When it comes to all of the scholarly information denouncing God and the Bible, I have this to say; those who hate God and wish to destroy belief for other people lie about the evidence and findings. I don't know if you are aware of the lies involved in the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion. I am posting part of an article and also a link to another site where Norma McCorvey, the Roe of Roe versus Wade exposes how she was used and abused by the pro-abortionists and how they lied about her. That is just one example of evil men telling lies to the rest of us in order to advance their ungodly agenda. I watched shows where apparently brilliant men went to great effort to debunk the Bible and God and I have enough knowledge myself, just a simple hausfrau from Western Kentucky, to know that they are flat out lying. All of the "evidence" against God and the Bible is a lie. So that's how I feel about that.


http://www.priestsforlife.org/brochures/whowasthejaneroe.htm

The power of lies

If Roe v. Wade is a legal fraud, passed in response to cultural and media pressures from the elitist class, then the way it was sold to Americans was just as fraudulent.

In "The Marketing of Evil" I reveal what Bernard Nathanson, co-founder of NARAL and one of the prime movers behind legalized abortion in New York, told me about how he and his pro-abortion colleagues managed to market legalized abortion to America. Their efforts paved the way for Roe v. Wade a few short years later.

"We persuaded the media that the cause of permissive abortion was a liberal, enlightened, sophisticated one," recalled the movement's co-founder. "Knowing that if a true poll were taken, we would be soundly defeated, we simply fabricated the results of fictional polls. We announced to the media that we had taken polls and that 60 percent of Americans were in favor of permissive abortion. This is the tactic of the self-fulfilling lie. Few people care to be in the minority. We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000, but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1 million."

NARAL's brilliantly deceitful marketing campaign, bolstered by fraudulent "research," was successful. In New York, the law outlawing abortion had been on the books for 140 years. "In two years of work, we at NARAL struck that law down," said Nathanson. "We lobbied the legislature, we captured the media, we spent money on public relations. Our first year's budget was $7,500. Of that, $5,000 was allotted to a public relations firm to persuade the media of the correctness of our position. That was in 1969."

New York immediately became the abortion capital for the eastern half of the United States.

"We were inundated with applicants for abortion," recalled Nathanson. "To that end, I set up a clinic, the Center for Reproductive and Sexual Health (C.R.A.S.H.), which operated in the east side of Manhattan. It had 10 operating rooms, 35 doctors, 85 nurses. It operated seven days a week, from 8 a.m. to midnight. We did 120 abortions every day in that clinic. At the end of the two years that I was the director, we had done 60,000 abortions."

In "The Marketing of Evil," I explain many sophisticated and powerful manipulation techniques used to market evil. But when it comes to abortion, one technique shoots right to the top of the list: It's called lying. To make killing little unborn babies sound good, you have to lie about it.

Nathanson today admits he and his abortion colleagues lied left and right. What's the most powerful abortion marketing slogan of all? "Women are dying." It just seems to trump all other points. In the years before Roe v. Wade, we always heard that 5,000 to 10,000 women were dying every year in the U.S. from illegal, botched abortions. This is what Nathanson and his abortion marketer cohorts were claiming. But it wasn't true not even close and they knew it.

Do you know how many women actually died from illegal, botched abortions in 1972, the last full year before Roe v. Wade? According to the Centers for Disease Control, it wasn't 5,000 or 10,000, it wasn't even 1,000 it was 39. Thirty-nine!

Suppose we were told 10,000 U.S. soldiers had died in the Iraq war, and that death rate influenced us to pull out, and then things got immeasurably worse because we left? And suppose we later found out that 10,000 Americans hadn't actually died in Iraq, but only 39. Wouldn't we feel betrayed?

Americans were betrayed by abortion marketers. The groundswell of support for legalized abortion that led to Roe v. Wade was based on lies and fraud, just as the court case itself was based on lies and fraud. And to this very day, the abortion industry is based almost entirely on lies and deception and dishonest marketing. Vulnerable women are still being deceived into believing their unborn babies are not human beings, only to find out too late, in the recovery room or perhaps later in life, that they ended the lives of their own children. It's hard to contemplate a crueler trick one could play on a mother.

Mutter, you have obviously thought a lot about these things and arent just accepting things because of childhood influence. You may be accepting things partially out of fear, I dont know, but you have certainly put a lot of thought into it. Ill give you credit for that.

But the things you find reasonable and acceptable, I just dont see it that way.

I have made my reasons why pretty clear, so there is no point in driving them home again here. So Ill just say that I am satisfied that and proper communication has taken place between us. We have both conveyed our ideas passionately, and we have both understood each other. Our mind set prevents us from seeing the others reasonable view points.

On the story of Roe vs. Wade, Ill just tell you that the other side also has a quite believable story about that whole incident that makes the pro-life side look bad. I am not saying I believe it, because I need more evidence to make a decision. I am one who thinks abortion should have severe restrictions on it, and if the pro-choice side told lies, I find that as believable that the pro-life side would do the same. But I just want to demonstrate that things are not always as clear-cut as they might seem.

"if you take away God dictating to Moses, you have nothing, not even the divinity of Jesus. "



Not so Stan, for it matters not the author, the Christian faith believes that Jesus was Lord, messiah, and the one son of God, having all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Now it is only common sense if the godhead dwells in Christ body, then he would know the words he gave to the author of the first 5 books?



Now this puts little importance on the origins of the first books, for his quoting in them means he as the author accepts them as being right.





So the question is not "are the books of Moses right", but rather "is Jesus right in quoting from them". So any historical evidence that defines anything with those books, simply cannot do away with the acceptance of Christ toward them, and that needs to be reconciled before making a decision based on alleged origins.

OK Fred, you are correct that if someone else wrote the books besides Moses, that doesnt necessarily detract. But I guess what I was talking about was all the thus spake the lord accounts in those books. According to the scriptures, the Lord talked directly to Moses and those around him. So I meant that if you take that away, and concede that as folklore and myth, then you have a house of cards. Agree?

So I think you have it backwards. You seem to be saying that since Jesus believed God spoke to Moses, literally, and all these accounts are true despite historical evidence, then it must be true. But I think you have to factor the historical evidence to evaluate whether Jesus was really who he claimed to be. That discussion could go on and on, and I dont have the energy or time for it right now. Been there, done that.

>>On the story of Roe vs. Wade, Ill just tell you that the other side also has a quite believable story about that whole incident that makes the pro-life side look bad. I am not saying I believe it, because I need more evidence to make a decision. I am one who thinks abortion should have severe restrictions on it, and if the pro-choice side told lies, I find that as believable that the pro-life side would do the same. But I just want to demonstrate that things are not always as clear-cut as they might seem.< <br>










Here's the thing, Stan. The words that God gave to Moses, in a nutshell, the ten commandments, forbid lying. The entire culture was based on these laws. To not lie, to not hurt your brother, whether my trying to take his wife, killing him, etc. is part of the whole picture. Love for one another, kindness, were lessons that God was trying to teach the Israelites. They didn't always learn their lessons and thus came into times of correction. God often gave them the right to figure things out for themselves and to pay an extremely price for their refusal to be obedient. The ideas behind the pro-life movement are based on these principals. There can always be deviations from the ideal. If there are lies on the pro-life side, it is easy for me to assume that they come about because some one from the pro-choice side has been planted there to discredit. If you believe the words in the article I included in my post, the pro-choice freely admits lying, manipulating polls, distorting statistics, etc. Why would they not pretend to be part of the pro-life movement and burn clinics and shoot doctors? These acts are not the acts of the true pro-life movement. Remember, those who really believe and follow the Bible believe in truth, love and peace. You don't believe the Bible and I believe you still believe in truth love and peace, but it is not the standard of those who dispute the validity of faith.







So, my point, I guess, is that the principles of true Christian people are more conducive to truth, while the other side has no such constraints. They are not held to any standards other than what might be innate in them. This is why their findings, reports, research and debate are meaningless to me.







Anyway, thanks for your time!

So I meant that if you take that away, and concede that as folklore and myth, then you have a house of cards. Agree?


Stan I am an explorer, I love discovering the truth, Now hold stead here, I decided to fix rv refrigerators. All the rv dealers in my area and everyone I talked to said it simply "could not be done".

Then I looked at the product in question, it was man made, a sealed by weld, all steel cooling unit that usually develops a leak from the outside due to rust from condesation.

Now just because "everyone" says it can't be done, well that doesn't necessarily mean I believe them. I might politely say thank you, which I did. But I thought, "it can't be done by you because you don't know how!"

The worldly way of saying that is "you are full of s#$%!

Anyway, now I know how to do it, my business is 13 years old, and has many hundreds of satisfied customers, and in fact we are the only ones in Idaho doing them, and one of only about 40 in the United States and Canada.

I don't hope to do them, I don't want to know how, I know how, period, having mastered the trade.

Now, I read forums on RVs, or listen to people complain about their fridge and how it is not working right, I can tell by just a few "keywords" what is probably wrong, and almost always hit it right, because I "know". A lot of times I can tell them what is wrong over the phone and tell them to get the parts to fix it themselves.

My point is, that people that don't know the trade still tell me that it can't be fixed, they are throwaway units.

I usually am like "okay" but I know different don't I?


And that principle is sort of in the religious- spiritual realm, I know Jesus, not the theory that on paper looks right, not the law that in effect would be nice if it could be enforced, but the person of Christ.

Anyone that wants to can assail me that knowledge but it still is there, because I know him.

So I think you have it backwards. You seem to be saying that since Jesus believed God spoke to Moses, literally, and all these accounts are true despite historical evidence, then it must be true.


Well not exactly, for I believe that Christ was the very same God in the incarnate flesh that spoke to Moses in Spirit form back then. For I believe God is one God, in 3 forms, father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and all 3 are one.


But I think you have to factor the historical evidence to evaluate whether Jesus was really who he claimed to be.

Now here you have me, at least in theory, for if he was not who he claimed, then my faith falls apart, except for one major problem, I have tried him, and tested him, and proved him, and I know, my Saviour lives!

I realize that is a little Cliche being a quote from a song , but it is nevertheless true!

That discussion could go on and on, and I dont have the energy or time for it right now. Been there, done that.

Me too, for there is no way you can make me not believe anymore than there is a way to make me not know how to fix fridges.

And there is no way for you to believe unless you change your approach, so the problem or reconciliation is not intellectual, but rather faith based, and answered in the shadow world of faith unseen with human eyes, and understanding.

Mutter, the whole thing on abortion is sick, just like the gay issue, it is festered because the natural laws on promiscuity are twisted, and because the government will steal form the rich and give it to the voters.



SO we have momma pregnant, and the daddy needing his genitals removed, if not his whole head. SARCASM ALERT #1! PLEASE DON'T JUMP ALL OVER THIS, I AM TOTALLY BEING SARCASTIC!!!!!

(was that clear?)



Anyway society has allowed the promiscuity of free sex outside the marriage covenant to reign with dignity, and puts little or no shame onto the unwed mother, and freely pays for little johnny to grow up without needing daddy.

SARCASM ALERT#2! PLEASE DON'T JUMP ALL OVER THIS, I AM TOTALLY BEING SARCASTIC!!!!!





So these lust hounds...

SARCASM ALERT#3! PLEASE DON'T JUMP ALL OVER THIS, I AM TOTALLY BEING SARCASTIC!!!!!



....Pound each other and produce unwanted offspring that somebody has to pay for, it is obvious that abortion is a necessity in a promiscuous society, it is cheaper than raising a bastard.



SARCASM ALERT #4. (the term bastard()! PLEASE DON'T JUMP ALL OVER THIS, I AM TOTALLY BEING SARCASTIC!!!!!

Read Philo, an Alexandrian Jewish philosopher who was living the same time as Jesus but was living in Egypt and probably never heard or knew of Jesus. According to his writings, the Jewish people understood most of the books of Moses to be allegorical which included the creation.

For instance,
they understood Adam to represent the "mind" and Eve represented the "five senses" and when it says, "it is not good for man to be alone"...the mind could not comprehend "soft" or "hard" without becoming married with the senses therefore he said "the man" (mind) must leave "father and mother" (the creator or God) and be joined to "the woman (the 5 senses) and become "one flesh".

It becomes a problem when the 5 senses dictate the actions instead of the mind being the one in authority. When the 5 senses are in charge over the mind we end up effeminate. Effeminate decisions are based on whether it brings pleasure or pain instead of the mind dictating the correct choice of action regardless of pleasure or pain.

I have never heard a pro gay argument that was based on logic (the mind). They are all based on the 5 senses. That being said, I am not a gay basher...I have friends who have chosen that lifestyle. However, I am honest with them and tell them that their choices based on the sensory will bring pain ultimately...it is an eternal law no one can get around. Does that make me love them less? No, it makes love them more because I know they will need that love when the pain ultimately comes.

It is very interesting book if you want to plow though some "heavy" reading. It helps you get into the mind of 1'st century thinking and understanding of the Torah. The book can be purchased on Amazon.