In the past, most families were committed to the wife staying home to take care of the house and children while the husband went off to work. This has changed dramatically in the world culture and in the general Mennonite culture. Now the majority of families have both the husband and wife working outside of the home for 40 hours each. This creates some challenges for both of them.

One of those challenges is achieving a balance of how the household is run.

Many women who are in this situation start off in the marriage will go ahead and take care the normal household chores. They do most of this at the start for various reasons. The husband comes home from work and sits down to relax in front of the TV. The wife comes home from work, fixes supper, does the dishes, pick up the days mess, etc. On her days off, she grocery shops, does laundry, etc. This isnt to bad at the beginning because its just for the two of them. Then they begin to have children. The wife has the added responsibility of taking care of the children. Now this starts to bug the wife, because she realizes that she is taking care of everyone, including her husband. The wife realizes that she is trying to train the children to learn how to do things for themselves but yet they see that their dad is relying on her to do everything for him. The husband helps out once in awhile when he notices that either she is getting really tired or angry.

The reason why I bring up the H and Mennonite culture into this discussion is because both of these tend to preach that wives should be submissive and they should respect their husbands as leaders of their homes. This adds extra pressure on the wife to just do all of that and the feeling that she shouldnt confront this issue with her husband because it would be a sign of disrespect or a lack of submission.

Is this right? Should the wife confront these issues? Should the husbands sit back and not contribute (or contribute very little) to the running of the house?

I would like to get some thoughts from my fellow forum participants on this subject. This discussion could easily turn to the how and why families get into this situation. However, I would like to hear how people have achieved a balance in their marriage and family life.

Just some thoughts on how things work in our home. We have become a non traditional home. Kris has the professional higher income, high stress job. When we both worked outside the home we shared household chores fairly equally. Now that we have 4 children in the home, I am the one who is at home most of the time. I consider it my responsibility to do the "traditional" women chores. I cook the meals, clean the house (probably not to my wife's expectations), I do all of the grocery and most of the kids clothes shopping. The exception is clothes for our daughter. I take the kids to school, attend the meetings, pick them up from school, take them to the doctor etc.

My wife has always honored me, as the head of our home. I certainly do not feel less masculine for doing the chores she does not have time for. I am blessed to have her for a wife. We both honor the other and have no problem demolishing foolish traditions.

Lark,



My wife & I decided early on that the right way to do this for us is that she stays home and I make the money (we both make the living ). Granted, that means sometimes that I gotta work far longer hours than either she or I would like, but the stress of having both of us work with children at home would be worse, we think. When we did not have children, she did work, but only part time (and she brought in money, some days as much or more than me). If we did not have children, she would probably be working outside the home, and we'd definitely be bringing home more green stuff. Thats OK, our lives do not revolve around green stuff, it is simply a tool to keep the house warm, food on the table, and take the occasional trip to see Grandpas or a camping trip. Beyond that, we don't get out much. (Today she delivered meals to older people around the neighborhood)

Mark, the way you're running your home is better than war.

Brent

TR.. if for some reason both you and your wife HAD to work (both jobs basically the same amount of work) to make ends meet, how would you approach the running of the house?

Lark, this is an interesting topic for me. Since my husband is a workaholic I ended up working, raising the children, running the household etc. I simply decided that was crazy and choose not to work full time though that would have been the 'safer' thing to do. Instead I trusted that my marriage would always work out, I trusted that my husband would always provide economically, I trusted that my husband wouldn't pass away prematurally. It took faith and I had a wonderful time raising my children. Having a full time career would have helped my selfesteem, would have expanded my mind, and would have provided me with more opportunity for friendships once my children left home.

Ideally the husband should help out equally if the wife works out but statistics show that doesn't happen. Statistics also show that many stay at home women are left bordering poverty after being abandoned by their husbands, either by death or 'that younger woman'. (I recently read an article on this.)

I made a choice waaay back "when" to get an education and establish a career before marriage. Perhaps that's because I've witnessed too many marriage breakdowns among my friends (before they hit the age of 25) where the woman was left wondering how to support herself (and in one case, her 2 year old child). The harsh statistical reality is also that women live longer, so I can assume I'll be left paying bills longer than my husband. (But hey, I'll win the lottery tomorrow, right?!)

My parents were shining examples of shared loads/shared information for me: my father cooked, my mother did laundry, my father vacuumed, my mother paid the bills. It is from them that I have learned the importance of discussion rather than assumption when it comes to roles.

I choose to be the "cook"--I absolutely love to cook and bake. I am also the person who keeps track of the finances in our house. But we always discuss where we're at, what our goals are (financial or otherwise). AND if I'm too tired (and there are days when I just don't want to cook, love of the culinary arts or not) I know I can be honest and say I just won't be making a meal that night.

I think in our marriage we have a short-term planner (I'd put myself in that category) and a long-range goal-setter (that would be Steven). Those two roles overlap and interact, and it's only with regular discussion that this continues to work.

But I guess I should drive home now and make dinner (smile) and watch the highlights of Obama's coronation..err..inauguration.

Good thread, Lark!

I've often thought that women from the H background make excellent wives for the modern man. Out of necessity we get jobs, and then out of habit we bake, cook, clean, and 'take care of our man'. My daughter has often told me that I do far more for the family than the mothers of her friends. Yet I know that I'm not unusual for good mennonite woman.

From the experiences of other xmennonite women I think that being raised to be submissive to our husbands has been detrimental. We stand up for ourselves when absolutely necessary but sometimes we should be assertive before we need to take a stance. Being taught to be submissive leads to women not having strong enough boundaries. Ultimately that leads to maritial and physical and mental health problems. Both my daughter and I have read separate articles talking about the higher rate of mental illness amongst mennonite/hutterite women than in other wasp canadian groups.

TR... did you want to answer my question?

I find it rather interesting... that some of our main posters on here.. have went silent on this subject. What's the deal? Does this hit to close to home? Do you see you or your spouse in this situation? For some of the men... have you looked into your wife's eyes and seen the frustration as she picks up your socks for the millionth time?

Arm....being submissive isn't the problem. It's when men take advantage of it that there is a problem. If the husband loves his wife.. then he will not take advantage of the situation. He will not add to the problem. For example, adding to the problem.. could be like... coming home from work, sitting in front of the tv, taking his shoes and socks off and then leaving them there for her to pick up. Or.. it could be by not encouraging the kids to pick up after themselves... knowing that his wife will come along and pick it up. Instead, the husband will help his wife with household chores... just like she is helping him in going out to work and outside job.

see Lark, It's not as important that those socks get picked up right now to the man as a little peace and quiet. He will get it done later or maybe next week, depends on if it gets to be important. So lay into him good and it will get to be important, but so will getting away for awhile till things cool off.

I suggest that you find something he did that you like and then tell him so. He might look for something else you like as well. And if he doesn't, I don't know. I guess if he's worth keeping, live with it. Most guy apartments that I've seen lag a little from the ladies.

A list of chores that will get done BEFORE free time will look after the kids stuff. The thing has to be a contract though. Respecting their free time gives them respect for their chores.

>>What's the deal? Does this hit to close to home?< <br>
Actually, Tanis is my wife. She spoke for both of us.

Mark, if that system works for you it sure makes sense to me. I don't really like being home during school.

We both share the responsibility of the house. I even cook some meals, but not as often as I used to. I have been making a great salad when we have a big meal though . I usually make a meal once or twice a week but we (especially me) can only stomach my cooking once and a while, so if she isn't in collapse mood I sort of cry unless she feeds me. (walking around rubbing my stomach, rolling my eyes while groaning in hunger pangs)

I look at it like she is my help meet, not me hers, and as such if her weakness simply cannot come up to the challenge necessary to the task, it is not her problem, but mine and I am the uncharitable one if I don't improvise.

The children do household stuff, including the bathrooms, front room, their own laundry, and the kitchen. We have them 'self police" meaning the next one whose turn it is, "checks" it for the guy just finishing it. If they don't get it checked then whose turn it is, has to do the job the next day, and I have a fit if it isn't at least half heart done, so the house is usually presentable.

Unfortunately that system leads itself to the lowest common denominator and the less attention She, or I pay to it, the more "sloppy " it gets.

I am not very 'evangelistic" and sort of "selfish" and have desired to 'do something for others" but have found it unrewarding without the support of the family, so have been working for a clean house on Sunday, and inviting a friend or some visitors from church.

This has worked out kind of cool, because the kids all enjoy visitors, and we can make a huge meal without thinking.

My wife has a vision for having animals, and while I support her in that, I do not want anything at all to do with it, being well willing to buy milk and eggs rather than cleaning stalls and stepping on chicken crud. SO that is on her. She is more of a doer than an organizer, and I am more of a point and click guy and willing to let things be done a little halfheartedly by a willing worker than by myself, so she has a little bit of overwhelm in that area at times, since it isn't fair to the animals for a halfheart job on feeding, if nobody does them they die. So she has to "do them" even if she is in collapse mode because I won't touch them except to perhaps pull a kid in birth since she can't, and it'll die horribly if I don't, and that is kinda cruel in my thinking.

If she goes to a conference or womens church deal hob, she has to get a friend or neighbor to come milk the goats, I don't even know how to get the milk out or the whatchacallits they get it from neither do I want to know. (HE HE)

I make sure she gets hay, and have the children help her put it away but I pay them to do that since I don't like touching hay. (I break out with rash)

I seldom do a major business decision without her input, unless I know she would support it and she pretty well understands the family business enough to run it without me since it is large enough to run itself without much more than a few hours of weekly oversight.


Home school is on her, though it is what I want, but I am simply not a teacher, and she has a gift that way.

When we had little ones, before the H, she couldn't handle it, so I hired a teacher letting him go when we started letting them go the H school.

I have found the home school to be better for the kids social and learning skills, than the H school, and mom better even if she isn't doing it too perfect better than a hired teacher.

My accountant noticed this, since he does our children stuff too. He told me the other day he used to be kind of disgusted how I would not send them to school, (not help them get started in life by sending them to college) but instead simply put them to work and start charging them rent to even live at home. And then he is like noticing they make more money being "uneducated' than anyone else he knows their age who are like "educated".


I don't think it is too smart to be too smart. One should follow his passion, and not get fogged down in details, for passion is where the money is, and money makes it easier to have family stick around.

Ec 10:19 b... money answereth all things.
Ec 5:3 For a dream cometh through the multitude of business;

For this reason, and since I mentioned my accountant, I have him do my books, payroll and taxes, they do that only for a living, and so they do it right, being specialists, they go to school, and take the proper courses, and know how to advise to keep you out of government trouble, and they do all that for about the same money you charge for your own services if you are self employed, so you hire a professionally trained collage graduate for wages and you only need to study a very little on the subject, some of the best money I ever spent!

(Okay Steven, there was your plug! )


Our house is sacred, and I don't like people coming into it and using it for a spiritual toilet, ( I make an exception for the forum people that are toilet mouths) when the teenage rebellion comes out of the teens, I tell them to stop it, they only have to obey me until they are 18 then they can move out, get their own place, pay the rent, power, INTERNET, phone, car insurance, heat taxes da ta da.....and they will never again the rest of their lives have to do what they are told!

Anyway carry on!

Lark, theoretically you are right about submission. In reality it rarely works ideally. To word my opinion more accurately i should say that the 'application of submission' is not taught properly. If submission is hurting the woman then there is a problem that should be dealt with. A summer boarder told me that its very hard not to take advantage of someone who will jump to do whatever they're told to do. Balances and checks need to be in place and too often those are missing. As woman and man roles evolve its very easy for the man to take advantage of a 'submissive' wife, especially when different cultures or families have different ways of dealing with relationships.

Notice that Lark said BOTH HAD to work. That would be because health, medical reasons, maybe even income level. TR hasn't answered this or some of the others. Medical reasons/expenses for children often come into play here. Although many women work because of wants, many don't. Let's have some honest answers even if it means that some men get off their blessed assurances and admit they enjoy the money their wives make. If they don't enjoy the money, tell their wives to quit working and work longer hours or take a part-time job if they have to. (Some of you wrote you did that so I'm not talking about you. It absolutely isn't fair if one has to work all the time and the other only works 8 hours if the woman has to work or if the man enjoys the extra money or vice versa. calledoutPTL

Steve.. yeah.. I already knew Tanis was your wife.

Fred.. I appreciate your response. Just curious.. did it take you awhile to get to that point?

notg.... My husband is doing quite well these days. I think he helps quite a bit more than most husbands. I would say... though that it has been a process getting to this point.

Now concerning the advice you are giving.... On the sock issue... Umm... let's see if the husband is complaining to his wife about how messy the house is ... then.. I would say it's important to him. (Although... apparently.. not majorly important because he isn't getting off his duff and helping.)


Btw....you just put all the work back on the wife. Saying "lay into him" or the list of chores for the kids.. who oversees that? The husband who already is not setting the example of doing things for himself? Hmm.. It still takes BOTH of them to make things work well.


Also....most wives don't want to and don't like the idea of "laying into" or nagging their husbands to do things. It makes the wives feel like their husband is another one of the children.

Amen Lark, Having raised my children alone much of the time for nearly 10 yrs, while LM was working very hard out of town to provide for us, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that feeling like you are doing it all alone does not enhance a marriage. We did talk on the phone every night during that time, but often there was limited time to resolve needed discussions. when a guy checks out it gives way for resentment to build and he needs to check his real intentions and responsibilities.

I do however, Fred, understand your issue with animals. they have never really been my thing either. although I have done things like picked up little pigs and hauled them 20 miles in my child's lap and stopped on the way home for hay, and put it into the back of my family vehicle, diaper raised a baby lamb (Pampers with a tail hole cut out) in my house till it was warm enough for it to be outside cause one of my brother's sheep abandoned it, and my mom was too ill to care for it. Ordered 3 pigs from a neighbor, only to have my brother bring me 2 in his car topper all the way from Tenn. then to keep peace with the neighbor, we took the extra 3. and I think you can imagine what a pig pen in a less than 1/2 acre yard with 5 pigs is like. Little did we know that we needed them to feed the 500 for our daughter's wedding that winter. but I gave up on doing it again when my man nearly had a heart attack trying to chase down pigs in the mud to butcher them.

But I am totally fascinated that 2 of my married children have done a complete turn of how they wanted to eat as teenagers, since they are married and have their own children and they are raising their own chickens, beef and milking their own cows. I grew up on the farm, and they are the ones that are really getting into it, we never had room in our swamp. I am kinda proud of them for making the effort to keep their children as healthy as they can.

Lark, for sure it takes both working hard to make the thing work to it's maximum potential. The problem as I see it time and again is that one spouse does not contribute to the level the other side wishes they would and the whole thing heads sideways quick. I've arrived at a couple conclusions over the years that go like this.

My spouse has different priorities then me. I might give up reading time for cleaning, while my spouse might prefer to relax first. If I want to clean, that's my choice, but my spouse might prefer me to sit awhile sometimes instead. Who's way is better?

It doesn't ever help to attempt a makeover of my spouses "weaknesses". The "weakness" is often a thorn to me because it grinds against a characteristic of my own. If I have a "strength" in an area, a good dose of "weakness" can make "normal".

Somethings my spouse considers enjoyable are a bore, and sometimes I would give alot to do something that she considers a waste! So if I am going to set all the rules, I will not have a spontaneous best friend, but rather a grudging associate. I have never enjoyed spending a lot of time with folks that controlled me. Just because we get a legal document saying that we are hitched and can't get away easy doesn't change the rules of friendship.

Was the Proverbs woman submissive? She brought in an income. calledoutPTL

Is her status of being submissive based on whether or not she worked outside the home? She probably had a lot of maids. What did her husband do - meet people at the city gates or something - probably not bringing home the bacon.

There are a lot of women who don't work outside the home who aren't submissive - they are just filling a role that is expected or necessary. There is also a pseudosubmission when a controlling partner shames or guilts the other into it. Submitting to one another is a heart matter. Or what about appearing to submit in public because of the fear of church discipline.

Achieving a balance in household chores is best worked on when you aren't feeling frustrated and put upon. Discuss what each is doing and how the burden of the other can be lessened, if possible. If things are going along well but an occasional boost would do, then just respectfully request it. Sometimes the best intentions can end in the passive aggressive tactic of making a statement such as "I'm not doing the dishes tonight", which may or may not get results depending on the other person's load for the day or level of respect for your load.

There's also the need to achieve a balance in emotional lives. Some spouses may be very fastidious with personal habits, but never give or require emotional intimacy. Others may never be involved in disciplining children.