Every person in every cult (or cultish group) would claim they were led to that group by God. None would claim they were led there by brainwashing or tradition. So why do the tesimonies of returning holdis have immunity from scrutiny? Of course, every returning ex-holdi (and I mean EVERY single one of them) will claim the Holy Spirit led the there, but only a cursory examination of cults and super-controlling groups informs us it is more likely the Holdi spirit, and comfort, and easing of guilt, and the peace that floods the soul when one lays down all resistance to an inward conflict long unresolved.
Scott when I went back to the Church I was led by the Holy Spirit to do so. When I went back to God the Church had nothing to do with it. Going back to the Church, for me, was a result of going back to God.
I suppose if I was led by the spirit of arrogance or naccisism I would still be bellyaching about how unfair it all was. I could sit around and complain about how the holdemans broke up your mariage. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with slapping her around or gennerally being a pompus jerk. I get tired of hearing you whine you made your bed, go lay in it. It's time for a little personal resposibility.
Check! Check! Reality Check! Getting kicked around for telling it like it is since 2005!!
This message has been edited by 1travelingman on Jan 27, 2009 9:12 PM This message has been edited by 1travelingman on Jan 27, 2009 8:53 PM
When I joined the H, I felt very strongly that was what God wanted me to do. When I got married, it was the same way. While we have had some very serious ups and downs there has never been a time in the 30 years we have been together that I doubted that he was still the one that God wanted me to marry. And I still feel the same way about the H church. It was God's plan that I join it at that time. Now some other folks made a decision that sent me out of it. It was not my choice at all. and I stuck around for 13 yrs because I had no clear direction of going anywhere else. But last yr a door opened up and we walked thru it and are someplace else. I do not have the clear direction that I had with those other 2 decisions, and yet we feel like we had a very open door and God is blessing us very much in it. And we have actually had several H give us their blessings on our current situation and tell us that it was time for us to move on and are praying for us that God can use us where we are. It is taking much more faith to be where we are than it did before because we do not have all the hidden cultural safe guards built in that say Christians do thus and thus. Yet we feel so blessed and loved in ways that we haven't in yrs.
I think that RM made the choice to serve God no matter what and God opened a door and he walked thru it and only God knows what he will find there. But I think that we can all be assured that the RM of 10 yrs ago is a totally different one today and he will look at God and his fellow man in a totally different manner than he used to. And we need to pray for him and his family because Satan will want to destroy what God has done for him and turn him into a complacent conforming H again so he cannot be of true service to God. Give the poor man a break, He's still in shock at what has happened to him and I seriously don't think he has even had time to process it.
<< I suppose if I was led by the spirit of arrogance or naccisism I would still be bellyaching about how unfair it all was. I could sit around and complain about how the holdemans broke up your mariage. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with slapping her around or gennerally being a pompus jerk. I get tired of hearing you whine you made your bed, go lay in it. It's time for a little personal resposibility.>>>
Just wanted to capture this for the record of "Christian" behavior before case you come to your senses and delete it.
Scott you come on here an accuse and rant and rave. You accuse everyone else but yourself about why things worked out the way they did. Your just like every one else, your own worst enemy. I just thought I'd put a little light on the situation so any newcomers that came on understood what was really going on. If you want to burn everything around you so you can have your own way go ahead, as you've pointed out many times that that is your right. Just accept the results of your actions and quit blaming others.
Check! Check! Reality Check! Getting kicked around for telling it like it is since 2005!!
Good post Travlin,, it's nice to see someone else has Scott 5 cents figured out besides me. This guy
is verbally abusive to his family, especially, especially, his wife. His aim is to find comfort
amoung the ex's, they all fall for it.
I would suggest we go with the approach you understand guys...
Have any of you actually seen Scott do anything like this, or is this fruit fresh off the grapevine?
If I want to throw stones I should look at my own house.
I have done things and said some really harsh, unkind things to my spouse from time to time. I am ashamed to admit it, but it's true. Sometimes I am an ugly person. I am grateful that he forgives and doesn't use it to make himself look better and me bad, because he could.
I don't think anyone involved in a passionate relationship survives long without some type of drama.
I also don't believe that Scott would intentionally ever hurt a living soul.
Grace. Scott can stick up for himself. He's always accusing everyone else of all kind of things. I'm just tired of him blaming the H for all his woes. If his wife wasn't a christian she probably would have left a lot sooner.
Check! Check! Reality Check! Getting kicked around for telling it like it is since 2005!!
Travelingman, why do you shift the focus to incredibly sensitive, painful, and private areas of my life? Is this a form of rape? Do I know you? Who are you? Where are you getting your information from? You seem to have a knowledge of my private life which supercedes the knowledge and conclusions reached by three different professional counselers, close personal friends of our family, as well as at least three different non-Holdeman ordained ministers? Please tell us what your sources are? Or may I not face my accusers? Is this an example of holdeman justice?
This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jan 28, 2009 3:08 PM This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jan 28, 2009 3:06 PM This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jan 28, 2009 3:04 PM
TM I didn't realize I was defending Scott as much as I was questioning the source of your post.
Frankly, I was a little surprised to see this coming from you.
I still question the integrity of your report, I find it suspect that you get nasty on a personal level with someone when they challenge the choices you have made.
I'm assuming you don't know Scott from a hole in the ground from the way you have avoided the question. I also find it really disappointing that you would goad someone on something that is obviously a really painful point. No one who is indifferent to a spouse will passionately fight for a marriage. I see your post as a deliberate effort to hurt someone who you feel has cornered you.
Your reaction says more about you then you had hoped to reveal.
Unless you personally were there when the alleged accusations took place it appears you owe Scott and God an apology for your slanderous gossip, my friend.
The thread was initially about God's leading...
Since we are on that subject I will add that I had another personal experience where when I became a Christian my assumption was I would be joining the church.
It turned out that God asked me not to run back to the church, and ironically that is exactly what I wanted to do, I know the culture, I would be pleasing people and I felt safe there.
As I pursued that avenue, I felt much like Jonah...I didn't want to go to the city! I didn't feel strong enough or wise enough to come out from under the bush. The bush died and I realized it didn't keep me safe, it was just excuse to prevent me from growing into what I was created to be.
I know we all have our destiny and our story...
Our journeys are not the same, but the commandment to love others as we love ourselves applies to us all.
Please TM search your heart...
Scott. Did you or did you not spend a night in the slammer for abusing your wife before she left you? A clear answer from you should clear up this confusion.
You know I didn't like bringing that up. It just hit me wrong that he bashes my church and attacks those that go back to it. He has all these justifications about the ministers did this that and the other thing. Tell you what. If he denies it I'll delete my post an apologise for hurting his feelings.
Check! Check! Reality Check! Getting kicked around for telling it like it is since 2005!!
MonteMan, it is so good to see you around again. Your spirit warms my heart. Anyway, putting the sentimental gushings aside for the moment, your question is fair on a certain level, but is intensely personal. I will be glad to answer it but because of its nature, I want to know who is asking the question. Something along the lines of being able to face my accusers. Now, tell me your name, and I will tell you the answer. You really should do this because Travelingman is using you as a smokescreen to not respond to grace's questions. So tell us your name, and we will get this ball rolling. I'm sure Travelingman is as anxious as I am (if not more so) for your compliance. Travelingman is champing at the bit to explain why that, although being a perfect stranger to me, and although his sources are strictly the gossip of my bitter enemies, knows more about what went wrong in my marriage then the professionals who worked with us personally. LOL!
P.S If you think you can interrogate me about my private life, but I can't even know your name, then indeed, you are an idiot.
This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jan 28, 2009 6:21 PM
>>You know I didn't like bringing that up. It just hit me wrong that he bashes my church and attacks those that go back to it.<
<br>
Umm. Correct me if I am wrong, but - doesn't your church claim to be non-resistant?? If that's the case, then pardon my French, but WTF are you doing attacking Scott just because he attacks your church? You, sir, are a hypocrite if you claim to be 'non-resistant' and a 'pacifist' and then go and pull crap like that on here.
I would rather have my church attacked/bashed then my spiritual soul. They are not the same. When a person understands this, the attacks on the church don't hurt like spiritual attacks. calledoutPTL
Traveling Man said "he bashes my church..." Well, what does his or your personal life have to do with church bashing? The original question was "Led By God?" Try answering the question with an intelligent answer. I'd like to hear how others were "Led by God".
You also said "IF he denies it..." Then you will apologize??
That was such a low shot you must be riding a Shetland Pony. Why don't you aim for higher ground?
I have not posted for some time, although I have stopped to read from time to time. God has lead me in other direction to find love, peace and be comforted in the promises of our lord, rather then be insulted by teachings of being self right and a very humanistic teaching of false claims.
I am so thankful for the fulfillment of the promise of God and His teachings, particularly for the gift of His acceptance of me just as I am , one who has failed many times.
I do take some exception to your charges against Scott. He, as all of us have at times, failed. However, unless you have been in his shoes and experienced what he has experienced, you have no right to attempt to use his mistakes against him in an argument. When a group with a false teaching of being sell right gets your loving wife wrapped around their fingers and they become the defacto head of ones home and your masculine head ship is questioned at every turn, I believe it is rather human to, as Scott did, lose your temper. He has repented of this and realizes his mistake.
It is my feeling that Scotts crime/sin is no greater in the eyes of our loving God then the many mistakes made by all of us - and for sure, no greater than the sin that H church leadership carry with the sin of self righteousness and false claims of HUMINISTIC exclusivity with God. Regardless of how strong the claims one makes are, a typical statement is "return to God and his church" with no basis. Normally one walks along and ignores this stupidity. The problem is they have the Love of Scotts life interfering with him and his life.
With Love from one who has walked in Scotts Shoes.
Hugh Wiebe
I believe I was led by God not to get into the H church. I had a lot of emotional trauma over it, but as I trusted God, little by little I was able to repent of my (dare I say it) Jezebel attitude and allow God to humble me and repent of bitter angry accusations I made against my husband and his religion. I was conditoned growing up that I should have the upper hand in religious matters, and when that didn't go according to my subconscious plan I was totally unhappy and ready to give up on my marriage if it hadn't been for my kids. The H supported me in leaving my husband if it meant joining them. I had to learn to totally lean on God since I was so disillusioned by religion. I had spiritual eyes opened and gained understanding above and beyond the rote answers. I value spiritual brothers and sisters but believe they can be found anywhere, not just inside the walls of a physical group.
Hugh, thankyou so much for your support, and your understanding, and Steve, grace, and A.T Loewen also.
Actually, I would more than welcome the opportunity to make the entire seven-year drama a public spectacle because my conscience is absolutely clear in the matter. As I have stated previously, I have made many unwise tactical mistakes due to ignorance, anger, and frustration, but my strategic goal stands absolutely pure before the God of the Milky Way, i.e., to save the wife of my youth (who was my first love), and to save my family.
What I am decidely not willing to do (and I am understating my resolve here) is to fast-forward five years into the insanity to a place and time in which I am at the point of a nervous breakdown, completely given up on the marriage, feeling completely misunderstood, cornered, and in a hand-shaking rage, and then be forced by my mortal enemies to answer one question of "did you or did you not do such and such", with the implicit (explicit?) presumption that if you "did it", then you are guilty of all charges and the Holdemans are innocent of all charges. My God. Where did a system of justice like that originate from?
Oh no? But, if I could bring in the entire array of testimony of personal friends of the family who went with me to the preachers to plead for their non-involvement, of the several professional therapist, of one of my best friends at Greensburg who was the deputy sheriff, etc. etc., and also the approximately 3-4 hours of recorded material where I contend with the ministers regarding my marriage, well, this would be the best thing that could happen for me, and I would really like to do it, and it would be a law suit potentially. I will NEVER forgive the holdemans for drugging my wife into a religious stupor, and which made the preachers the absolute authority of my home, and killed fellowship with my wife deader than a doornail. And this experience is the sum totality of what has made me hell on wheels on this forum.
Thanks again for the support. I needed your comments. You know how it can be when the wolves get in a pack and smell raw meat. These wolves do not give a damn about getting to the real truth of this matter (which just may be the biggest and most unnecessary tragedy of CGCM's history), because full disclosure of everything (mine and their sins) would UTTERLY damn them as having any possibility of Christian behavior. I have no fear at all of my behavior made public (although I am ashamed of a lot of it). But what I find is that it is basically impossible to get past the stonewalling to get their behavior made public, because making mistakes while fighting a desperate fight for your wife and family is understandable, but what they did was the essence of Satan's foul breath blowing on me and mine.
This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jan 28, 2009 8:09 PM
I made tactical mistakes due to ignorance, anger, and frustration while fighting to save my marriage.
The Holdemans made a strategic mistake as they fought to win my wife from her husband.
May the God of the Milky Way assess my case, and assess the responsibility and guilt of each and every Holdeman member for the grievance.
I am not a Christian man. But I belive in honesty, responsibility, and integrity. I believe in loving, protecting, and providing for my wife. I believe in possessing my wife, and in being possessed by her. To share my wife with you is to share my soul with you because my wife and I are "one flesh". I refuse to share this sacred possession with an another uninvited, infallible male authority. You have blasphemed the name of your god in my eyes.
Lark, are you equating the destruction of a family with being asked some hard but fair questions relating to integrity? Now THAT is an example of illogical effeminate thinking. Now hurry to the kitchen, your cookies are burning.
This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jan 28, 2009 8:35 PM
Scott.. since Tim brought the subject up about RM.. basically all of your posts have been consumed by RM. I find that rather odd.. especially considering that RM has barely even responded on this subject.
I don't see that Lark. RM is off doing his thing and nothing that is said here has any power to stop him. However, how do we know that God isn't holding Scott responsible to warn others of the plight of anyone who happens to find themselves in the position he did with the H?
Some find it hard to accept Scott's blunt self-expression. That doesn't automatically disqualify his message.
You know its also interesting that so many of you come to Scotts rescue and ,oh my, are so eager
to forgive and forget. I wonder why you two faced slobs didn't do the same thing for Lockladys
brother a year or so ago? You two faced hypocrites.
I didn't know this was A-L-L about any one person. I read it from the angle of determining WHY and HOW can someone who has found the "Good News" return to a church in which he experienced the "BAD NEWS". This is nothing personal, just trying to reach the ultimate logical conclusion as it relates to ANY person returning to the CGCM after being abused by them.
Lark, I'm with Adiel...
RM has been posting his doubt and feelings regarding the church on this forum for many years, he recommits his life to Christ and immediately jumps back into the church with both feet.
I feel he should be able to handle a few questions regarding his decision. It is not a personal attack, but rather a "what the heck?" kind of questioning, which are consequences for the things he has written in the past.
I would expect my friends to ask me for an explanation if I did a 180, I would be disappointed if they didn't ask me questions and want to know what had happened and where I was at.
RM was given a wonderful opportunity to witness for his church and it was turned into an ugly vicious attack.
It is really sad that other church members don't feel he has it in him to give us his answers and thought they must jump in and defend the church, I think he was doing of fine job of explaining himself.
The attacks on Scott were uncalled for and way over the personal line. They had nothing to do with RM's decision, and actually if Nascar wants to give the devil the glory for this thread, I would have to say TravelingMan sure helped him out.
I have known Scott all my life and he is a gentleman, and not prone to verbal abuse or personal attacks.His struggle is in the arena of ideas, not in discrediting those who disagree with him.It is quite low to come on here and discredit him on a personal level because he is attacking ideas you disagree with, based on a situation you know very little about.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Scott is challenging a premise of being led by God.He is not making any claims about his own worthiness.When others respond to his challenge with unrelated personal attacks, then that tells me they are without defense, and merely wanting to detract others from close scrutiny of their sacred cow.
Travelingman: "I suppose if I was led by the spirit of arrogance or naccisism I would still be bellyaching about how unfair it all was. I could sit around and complain about how the holdemans broke up your mariage. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with slapping her around or gennerally being a pompous jerk. I get tired of hearing you whine you made your bed, go lay in it. It's time for a little personal resposibility."
Your own words; you pompous jerk; what a joke--back to church--where is Christ in all this--jerk?
This is all so fair and it is all about ideas. Accusation, inuendo, and hearsay is proof when attacking the church. Scott has made all kinds of accusations about what people "did" to him as a reason to hate our church. He questions RM coming back to the church using his experiences with the church as a basis for denouncing our church. I just try to point out that Scott made his own problems and I'm the bad guy. I guess being on a low pony is better than being in the mud.
Check! Check! Reality Check! Getting kicked around for telling it like it is since 2005!!
With all due respect TM, I would like to relate to you a whole 'nuther side to the control and manipulation of holdemanism. As long as you have a normal-functioning family(in holdeman terms)and you 'fit in' to all the normal expectations of abiding by all the requirements that are laid out for you, are socially active since we basically have a social gospel, then you are accepted as a bonifide holdeman and you will be in the 'in group' and have all the respect that you have come to expect.
But...should you have a situation that deviates from the aforementioned, then be ready for a life-altering experience, and I am talking from experience here. The talking behind your back will be hot and heavy, usually resulting in the complete untruth. They will be careful to never tell you what they think about you or what they heard, but once in a while some brave soul will gather up enough courage to tell you what they heard and many times it will really shock you. Even statements coming from ministers that are very insulting and not true, they think they know what is going on but they don't have a clue.
The most distressing thing that can happen to you is when the ministers and/or deacons have a proposal to bring to you thinking they have a solution to a particular problem but they already know you will very likely be resistant to it, they will talk to your family and all your siblings and gather up steam and the backing and then gather many of them into a room and hit you with the bombshell question: We would like to see you do this....well, I had news for them, and time proved that I was right. All they would have had to do is have a minister or deacon come to me and pop the question. But no, they had to get my whole family involved in it, thinking then they could convince me. It was all very embarrassing. I demanded an apology from the perpetrator(deacon) and I got one.
(and that was only one situation like this out of many)
The worst thing I hate is someone using intimidation tactics to try and convince me to their way of thinking. So if you (TM) think a situation like that is being 'led by God' then you have a very different view of that term.
So, having been through more than you can ever imagine with the H church, I "know" what Scott is talking about. If you want to talk about arrogance(in one of your posts), I know some, actually quite a few holdemans that are some of the most arrogant people I know.
So I feel you have been quite insulting to Scott and probably not even realizing it because you have never 'been there, done that' for what he has been through, although undoubtedly some mistakes on his part were made, which he admits.
So I have come to have a very different view of the holdeman church and there have been many times we have had to use Jesus' own words, Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
Since this is a thread about being led by God to a certain church (or am I out of my mind for thinking that - the title alludes to that but maybe I'm wrong) I will briefly tell a bit about how I felt God led me and hope for an answer to a question I have that has been voiced here dozens of times.
I can't say God 'led' me to the Holdeman church. It was just the thing to do and I didn't know anything else. He did clearly lead me to the church I am attending now, though. It was a specific answer to a specific prayer that made me believe He was leading me.
Now my question is (that has been asked many times before) is why is it such a glorious thing for God to lead his children to the CGCM but the most forbidden thing for God to lead His children elsewhere? In one instance they are accepted with open arms - in the other, they are shunned for life - and in both instances they are led by God. There's obviously more to the equation than being led by God.. Or maybe a more truthful statement is that there is more than one god involved here. There's definitely something I'm not 'getting' and would like (without hope) to find out what it is.
**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**
Steven you don't know me so son't call me a twit. You are just a pompous blowhard. Everything I know about Scott I got right here. I think I need to go hang out somewhere people don't have such thin skin.
Check! Check! Reality Check! Getting kicked around for telling it like it is since 2005!!
>Steven you don't know me so son't call me a twit. You are just a pompous blowhard. Everything I know about Scott I got right here.<
<br>
TM: You've got a terminal case of craniumsphincteritis.
First of all - You're a Holdeman and Holdemans are supposedly non-resistant, so why you're here shooting off your mouth is beyond me.
Secondly - You say I don't know you so I shouldn't call you a twit. Then you follow that up with calling me a pompous blowhard. Since you don't know me, then WTF are you doing calling me names?
Third - If all you know about Scott was learned on this forum then you don't know him, either. So again, WTF are you doing making allegations about how he treated his marriage and making light of the crap he went through? And - If everything you know about Scott you learned here AND if that allows you enough knowledge of him that you can make the allegations you did, then by the same token, since the only thing I know about you is what I have learned here, you really have no grounds to complain about what I called you.
However, in closing, I want to apologise for calling you a whining twit. You're actually a hypocritical (see point 1), whining twit with your head stuck so far up your a** that you're choking on your own tonsils.
Steven you always make me giggle. So predictable. I aint like any holdie you ever met. I guess your right though it was kind of a low shot. I apologises for any hurthful remarks I have made. But hey I guess I got of the high road when I decided to wallow around here. Getting on my low pony (who is straining beneath my considerable weight) and slogging of toward the sunset.
Check! Check! Reality Check! Getting kicked around for telling it like it is since 2005!!
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