I've been playing with a little theory here. Well, actually, its based on the bible somewhat. Basically, it is this; if the foundation is false, then the structure will also be false, i.e., it will ape the foundation (parables about houses built on sand come to mind here).

Now we all know (a little emotional effeminate ruse here if you don't mind) that the OTVC is an utterly false claim. We also know that it is foundational. You do the math...well, let me to get this over with. The math is that if the foundation is a lie, and if we build a tottering structure on this dishonest foundation, then the structure is a also a tottering mess.

Yes of course. That's why I didn't like RM going back. Sure, his wife now validates him, but he leaves his balls hanging on the razor wire. There are some fences that just weren't designed to scoot along before you hop over.

My contention is that intellectual dishonsty is systemic to the system. It isn't just what they do. It is who they are. It is in the spiritual DNA. Have you ever noticed how slippery an H is? Ever notice how impossible it is for them to admit wrong? Ever notice how they always, when handling "evidence", seem to know "what to leave in and what to leave out"? Ever notice that their basic litany of arguments reduce to either tearing down a strawman, personal attacks to invalidate your credibility as a witness, or the plethora of thought-terminating cliches (e.g., if we aren't the true Church then where is it?). That's basically what they have folks. It is a cult. Sorry, that's what cults are and do. If you don't like they way I said it, maybe Hank can say it to you nicer. Some people prefer nice to clear.


Now here is four examples right off the bat of blatant holdemanesque dishonesty:

On the "led by God" thread, in response the charge that he is depending upon the murderous holdevine for his slander (information) Tavelingman whines:

"Scott has made all kinds of accusations about what people "did" to him as a reason to hate our church."

This stunned me. Here is what is going on. Travelingman is equating a man's personal experience which are completely validated by professional opinion with information from the grapevine, and not only a neutral vine, but a vine with a murderous agenda to invalidate a witness. He thinks these sources have equal validity. Wow. Perhaps TM would like to live in a country in which its civil court operated on the same basis. Perhaps TM would like to be subject to his own medicine? LOL So my personal experience validated by professional opinion is summarized thus by TM: "has made all kinds of accusations". LOL!


Foreal pulled this same kind of dishonesty a year ago. Ostensibly, purporting to get to the bottom of the story, he interviewed some Holdemans who were allegedly "close to the situation", and his fair, unbiased conclusions were: Scott-bad boy, Holdies-squeaky-clean people just like Jesus. Foreal, just how frigging dishonest can you get? LOL. Foreal, if you were going to hire a private investigator, would you hire the one who was a first cousin to your mortal enemy? LOL!


Now TR tried to deceive Uncle Remus based on the utterly false idea that the OTVC in NT times is the same as the holdi OTVC. That's funny! But anyway, Jerry caught this little cult tactic right off the bad and called him on it, and even then, TR refused to acknowledge this salient point, and tired another distraction. TR, you do NOT get a gold star for the day. In fact, I want you to write on the blackboard ten thousand times before we will change your diaper and warm you bottle:

1) NewTestament OTVC and CGCM OTVC are NOT interchangeable terms
2) NewTestament OTVC and CGCM OTVC are NOT interchangeable terms
3) NewTestament OTVC and CGCM OTVC are NOT interchangeable terms
.
.
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10,000) NewTestament OTVC and CGCM OTVC are NOT interchangeable terms

Oddly enough (and this is almost too weird for words), some of my very best and closest friends are holdies. They are so different, and so I know that all holdies do not have to be the same. But the prevailing wind of the holdi-spirit does bring a certain generalized MO doesn't it (as well all know)?

"Oddly enough (and this is almost too weird for words), some of my very best and closest friends are holdies. They are so different, and so I know that all holdies do not have to be the same. But the prevailing wind of the holdi-spirit does bring a certain generalized MO doesn't it (as well all know)?"

Yeah, it is almost too weird for words. One wonders how it works. Are they just your yes-men, bowled over by the sheer force of your personality? Which razor fence are their balls hanging from - CGCM's or yours? Do they need to explain to you at every turn just WHY they are still Holdies when they know the OTVC is baloney, WHY they are intellectually dishonest when they go to church on Sunday and hobnob with a cult when they know better? I'm trying to understand how they could be your closest friends and yet be part of the church that has caused you so much grief, or why they should fare better than RM at your lash? Inquiring minds want to know. Could it be that you are a mild-mannered teddy-bear offline?

Scott, there is dishonesty in almost all things in a society that is not ran as a republic, using lawful money, such as we have.

Everything is built on the principles of compromise. That the H church has gotten sucked into that thinking, should not be so offensive. They are completely compromised in the things of honesty, but nevertheless their society works well for those it does not grind.

So Scott, you are preaching to the choir, for they know they are lying, they do it willfully, and think it is cute, and if they are slightly embarrassed when confronted, they nevertheless think it is necessary to lie, if not unfortunate.

So they are willful liars, but only in things that are of God, the rest of their lives are actually sort of pure at least superficially and on not to close of an inspection.


There is a manifest thinking in carnal man that states, "the end justifies the means" and that is the Holdeman "spirit" in it's fullness.

The preachers will use blackmail and rumormongering. If they are caught, they will apologize and do it again, because the end justifies the means, but they will be more slippery next time.

C.O.Jones, I enjoyed your post immensely. Your questions were astute and right on target. I have no idea how to answer it. Brent called me a freak show. Maybe this is one of the acts.