While there is a double standard on this site between H members and some non-members... (H members being held to a standard that others are not) it is clear that in face of clear evidence the H folks do not own up to the CHANGE in teaching of the "church" by their leadership, from the teachings of prior to 1960-70s. The only exception may be Xep (there may be others), who made a comment that he believed there is a spiritual church in existence. (TR may come close, when he says there is no difference between saved H members and those in Christ's embrace even though not baptized by CGCM).

I am NOT referring here to the visible church, but rather to that body where all who believe and have eternal life (John 3:16). This may be called the body of Christ, the Christian church, the universal church, the general church or the invisible church. This body is that which holds all those who are born again, washed by the blood of Christ and all who are destined to eternal life with Christ after death. All who ARE IN THIS body have eternal life and there is no salvation outside of this body.

The change that took place at CGCM is that they started to call the non-baptized saved believers "the kingdom", rather then "the (invisible) church. This was a deliberate calculated change, but I believe sincere, by the H ideologues whose goal was to erase any doubt that CGCM was the exclusive church defined in the NT, and eliminate non-baptized believers from the "body of Christ" equated by CGCM as the church (BD&B). Their intent was to make a place or grouping (kingdom) for non-H believers so they had a logical explanation for these other believers.

In doing so, they overlooked the fact that they now are in contradiction to:

A. The Thirty-Three Articles of Faith, which says that the church is made up of all who believe (Art. 18).

B. The writings of Menno Simons & Dirk Phillips, who clearly taught there is no salvation outside of the church and that non-baptized children ARE in the church.

C. And they contradict their own writings of as late as 1951, where the statement is made that believers, quote: "enter the invisible church, Christ"

D. And of course, in contradiction to scripture (as many understand it).

By making this change, CGCM actually left the Mennonite Anabaptist camp and took on the teachings of the "Landmark & Primitive Baptists". CGCM leadership says they were unaware of any possible plagiarism, and that their explanation came about by their own discussions. (letter from GK to me).

Again, let me repeat that my issue here is not the "visible church", but rather the more important point of basic salvation. Salvation is secured by "repentance towards God and faith in Jesus Christ" Acts 20:21, and this salvation is complete, and puts all believers on one level into the same body.

I submit that the visible church is a secondary issue and all can argue/debate who is nearer to the NT model and each can make their individual points. This is how I view our grandparents understanding. However, to claim exclusive invisible OTC status flies in the face of Matt.16, and contradicts the answer of Peter to Christ; "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", and Jesus reply; "Upon this rock (or confession) I will build my church. I ask; who are these who sincerely say with Peter, "Thou art the Christ" ? Prior to 1970, CGCM teachings clearly allowed all believers to be part of this church, the body of Christ; quoting Fricke: "the invisible church, Christ".

I call on all good natured, sincere H members to acknowledge the changes that have occurred at CGCM and recognize all believers as "one people of God, the church, the body of Christ". Such a position does not preclude anyone from still believing in the "Visible church".

Regardless where Scott may be in his spiritual quest and relationship with Christ; there is no one here who has drawn more attention to the H error of the true church then he has; and for pointing out inconsistencies/contradictions and incorrect interpretation of scripture (as I understand it) he cannot be faulted.

Corrected to better reflect my sentiment.

.

Hank,



I basically agree with you that there is a spiritual church in existence. I personally know people who are not members that I would have as much confidence in their spiritual relationship with the Lord as a CGCM member.



I also believe in a visible church, and believe one needs to be a part of the spiritual kingdom before those in the visible organized church would accept that person as a brother in Christ, and take part in breaking of bread, the cup, regular spiritual fellowship, etc.



I don't believe, however, that some of what I believe to be the fundamental fruits of a Christian will be very far apart. For instance, diverse views on issues such as non-resistance, the sacredness of marriage, and such like. Such diverse views in those basic matters are fruits of those who are living after the flesh, and not after the Spirit, IMHO.

Edited to add: Scott has brought up Ben G's statement about "loss of power" in several posts. I have always understood that statement as meaning a loss of clarity concerning what a Godly marriage is, what Godly principles are in every believer's life, etc. I have never understood it to mean power in the sense of a group of men lording it over other people. That I can appreciate as being direction from the Lord to those who honestly seek it. It is in matters such as these and many others like them that I find confidence in the brotherhood I am a part of. If the CGCM was actually as it is presented on here many times, I would not be a member long. I experience a completely different people when I fellowship with my brethren then what is generally presented here.

When I find others (and I do find them) that hold to and exemplify what I believe to be the fruits of the Holy Spirit working in their life, I think they surely have found the Lord. In the end, that's all that will matter. I honestly don't think even one person here in my congregation sees it any differently than what I just stated.