I make me some toy people and set them up on the kitchen table in front of me, and they think they know what I've done. Is that all there is to it?

I challenge those that think they understand God to see if they are man enough to make one of their toy people charge them and sass back to them, or deny that they created it, or tell them straight to their face they can't do nothing about it.

Make your toy people so that they try to sh*t on you, make them scorn you, make them mock you.

Then see how big your heart and soul is and if you can reconcile it all.

Oh we're to righteous, we're to professional and intellectual for that. Why would we make toy people like that. We'll make them dote on us, we'll make utopia, we'll solve all the problems of the world, we won't have no war, we'll have romantic love. We can't create bad things like that.

Brent

<<< Make your toy people so that they try to sh*t on you, make them scorn you, make them mock you. Then see how big your heart and soul is and if you can reconcile it all. >>>

If you were big enough to make them, then hopefully you are big enough to embrace what you made when it comes back at you and sasses.

There isn't anything on the painter's canvas that isn't in the painter's soul. You cannot create what does not originate within you.


If you are a big boy, and you did the design yourself, then why can't you reconcile what you made?

God is ok with us, and God is ok with what he made. The redemption/restoration of the human race is a process, not a destination. God is ok with where we are at at this moment. Now I'm not saying that there isn't harding rebuking in our natural lives because there is, but God is totally ok with the big picture of this entire stinking mess of f*ed up humanity. I do NOT mean this disrespectfully. I mean this to affirm God's authority.

What God made is not able to surprise God...or at least I hope not.

The entire frigging quagmire of confusion is based on man's traditions that render God a pissed-off, petulant sissy throwing a temper tantrum, RATHER than a 4-star general who is totally in charge. God is not surprised. God is more redemptive than the Church men say. God is in charge.

"God is a Spirit" Does a spirit have intellect? What is a spirit? Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Verse 9 says that we are not controlled by a sinful nature if the Spirit of Christ is in us.

If mankind has a "sin nature" by default, then we definately cannot look to understand God's nature by looking at mankind's nature.

<<<< If mankind has a "sin nature" by default, then we definately cannot look to understand God's nature by looking at mankind's nature.>>>

Where did that sin nature come from notg? Did man create himself? Did God create the sin nature in man? Or did God lay down on the job and neglect to protect His pure creation from defilement? You are running out of options here, and they all impune God, either His mercy, his justice, His authority, or His foresight. Your incorrect view of God's plan for the world forces you to accuse God's character.

<<<Where did that sin nature come from notg? Did man create himself? Did God create the sin nature in man? Or did God lay down on the job and neglect to protect His pure creation from defilement? You are running out of options here, and they all impune God, either His mercy, his justice, His authority, or His foresight. Your incorrect view of God's plan for the world forces you to accuse God's character. >>>

Sin nature was always there in that there was and is both "good" and "bad" in the spirit world. When God made man He made him default "good", but for man have a spirit potential he must be subject to spirit conditions. The creation was potentially eternal until man let in evil in his caretaker role. It still could be; if God would recreate by destroying the evil in the world and restarting.

There is a new deal in the works and Jesus labled it "New Birth" He said,"You must be born again." This gives a new start and changes default to a child of God. The educated man scoffed and said, "How am I going to reenter the womb and be reborn."
Jesus said that the rebirth was of water and of the Spirit.

God's mercy is apparent in that even though the caretaker man goofed, He will offer redemtion.

God's justice is apparent in that He holds caretaker man accountable unless he repents.

God's authority is apparent in that He created at His own motivation and delegated to caretaker man.

God's forsight is apparent in that He warned caretaker man BEFORE he made his mistake.

And as to why in the world would God do a thing like that, Apostle Paul explored that as well in Romans chapter 9.

I do not see how this lowers God. He is all powerful and could make it anyway He chose. IF He wanted a being to serve Him by free choice just because the being wanted to, how else should He go about it.

Scott, I wasn't doubting what the creator has done and can do. But how fearfully honest can we get? If all things are possible with God, then all things are possible including what our logic may think is impossible for God to do. That much honesty is probably impossible for natural man. So they can't face the toy people on the kitchen table showing them what is in their soul, or in other words, putting themselves in situations to reveal what's in their heart. So I asked in the opening post, how big of men are we? It don't seem right not to find these things out before we charge and threaten God with what our logic says he has to do.

Like I wrote in a post a day or two ago, the more I see the less I claim. Or for that matter, charge.

Scott, I've looked high and low for the sovereignty of man in your writings, and I can't find him. You do know what this means....no responsibility, robotism, leisure, watching the world go by on the front porch, arrogant claimings, religion.

So how does our sovereignty and lack of free will get reconciled? For by logic they don't go hand in hand.

I have some vision on it. But I won't dare breathe a word of it till I understand the whole thing.

Brent

<<< Scott, I've looked high and low for the sovereignty of man in your writings >>>

You won't find them. Man is not sovereign. That is "Christian" dogma. There cannot be two soverigns occupying the same space. If man is sovereign, then God is not.

The bible states clearly that God puts a ring in man's nose and leads him where ever and how ever He pleases. This is the only view that makes any sense. It is the only view by which all of creation will eventually be redeemed.

Scott says: "God puts a ring in man's nose and leads him..."

Scott show us the verses, or series of 3-4 verses that show your line of thought. We realize you were speaking metaphorically so we are not looking for the literal nose job.

I will respond later of my understanding with a series of verses. (Am at the car dealer in Seattle waiting for my car to be repaired).

"You won't find them. Man is not sovereign. That is "Christian" dogma. There cannot be two soverigns occupying the same space. If man is sovereign, then God is not."

Scott,

Then you're not sovereign in your own home, and God ain't no more sovereign over us than you are over your own family.

You're sovereign to some degree, or you'll have to rework your ideas on authority in the home.

And if man was given some sovereignty in the earth like in the way to subdue it, then God must indeed be away in Spirit, and the Son of Man not on the earth yet to rule.

Scott, you and people like freeNdeed continuously avoid responsibility in your writings with both the uses of religion and logic.

Brent

We really have to get away from the debates central to our life and personal beliefs and look at the whole picture. If God created us and put us on this earth, it was for a reason, and that reason would carry a mission, responsibility, authority and sovereignty of some kind.



God said, get after it and fulfill my plan. You have the genealogies of families and the ages of time to do it.



The only way you can get away from this mission of responsibility and meaning is to eliminate God and attribute this vast stage of the world to something else.



And only religious evolution and atheism can do that because it can't be in no other position but in rivalry with God. It has to deal with religion making it religious itself. So it's a show down and a half.



Brent

If it hasn't already been mentioned here, God made us a little lower than the angels according to Psalm 8:5 and Hebrews 2:7. Created in His image, we are autonomous with a punishment or reward depending what choices we make. We can blame the way we were raised for our problems but we're ultimately responsible. Creation makes it obvious there is a higher power. It's what we do with that knowledge that determines our eternal destiny. As I heard pointed out today, it's important not to be too righteous or too evil. I don't know the verses, but it was stated those claims are in the Bible.

Hank, there are many verses that speak of the "bit" in so many words. There is one in proverbs which basically says that man "chooses" but God directs the outcome. There are those which speak of kings being set up and pulled down on God's purpose. I think Job has quite a bit on this subject. However, at this moment, my interest in this forum, and for bolstering my argument is too low for me to go spend time searching for them. I'm ok with whatever you want to believe. Whether either of us is right or wrong, the world will keep on turning.