I was just wondering if anyone would have some advice for me. My husband and daughter attend the H church and I do not. I would like to attend a different church but my husband says he does not want me too. I feel kinda bad if I go against him but yet I don't.
Any advice would be helpful.
May your husband not neglect his part by loving and giving honour unto you. Sometimes the husband's part in the relationship gets forgotten and it all becomes about submission. Is he loving or giving honour unto you if he allows religion to drive a wedge into the marriage relationship?
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
1 Pet 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
This is not a set up. I have logged on here before under a different name. Maybe the name goatlady will ring a bell. My husband and I were separated for awhile because of the Holdeman issue. I have since moved back home but continue to maintain my nonholdeman status.
He is still for the holdeman church. My daughter is a member there.
He told me Sunday that he did not want his daughter going to a different church and he did not want me to go either. Well, I did anyway.
You can either rebel with wisdom and integrity, or submit with disgrace and religion. The one will give you grace, authority and responsibility, the other will cover you with religious leisure and no responsibility.
I was just wondering if anyone would have some advice for me. My husband and daughter attend the H church and I do not. I would like to attend a different church but my husband says he does not want me too. I feel kinda bad if I go against him but yet I don't.
Any advice would be helpful.
My advise is to get hold of God, stay submissive to your husband, and be truthful.
You are not submissive because you are not equal with him, because in Christ there is neither male nor female, but you "chose" to submit because Christ is in you and you recognize you place in the grand scheme of the Spirit moving in your life and family.
Where your husband goes to church is where you should go. But wisdom on the part of a godly woman, whose heart is bent on making her man a man, will make your stay there endurable and spiritually profitable.
Only since you asked do I comment at all here. I dont have answers, only ideas. We live in a day when its okay to live either black or white and require everyone else the same or we judge them as weak or shallow. Trust me, the world is full of circumstances that are messy and gray and as humans we have to make peace with it all in our own way. It takes lots of time in meditation, thought, retrospection, and consideration of others and indeed the future of our posterity, or the generations that will be dealing with the results of our decisions today. In that context it may seem like worshiping with a husband in a church you dont want to attend is a big deal. Maybe it is, maybe it isnt. Look ahead 20 years. Maybe attending a church together with your family is far more important than which religion it is. And maybe being a role model to a daughter by wanting the family to be together Sunday morning is more important to her future than which church you happen to go to when she is young. Shell probably have lots of chances to choose her own religion in a few years as an adult herself. Ive walked some of these same miles myself, and have regrets, but the times I made decisions based on the sustainability of my childs emotional and spiritual health in her adult life are the times I feel most at peace with. It didnt have to do with religion. It was all about arranging what I was in charge of in her life at that time so she would be ready to make solid decisions as an adult that were based on the awesome, omnipotent God of this universe whose blessings we desire. In a sentence, forget the religion, go with God. You might be surprised that in the end it may include your husbands religion for a lot deeper reason than him wanting you all in his church. The important thing is to lay down a foundation for your daughter to discover God wherever she may find him as an adult, so she is not confined to the man-made theology of religious groups who see themselves as exclusive.
Goatlady, this has NOTHING to do with submission. Its about a shattered relatioship and absence of trust which is the result of broken marriage vows. Until you repair the marriage from within the sacred circle, the interference from his church will keep you insanely busy asking small questions, such as "Can I attend a different church?"
Remember, "submission" is only a square religious term for legalistic obedience, and cannot be stuffed into an intimate circle made for two.
Right on AT! The question of submission is a decoy to keep goatlady busy and distracted from the real problem here, i.e., a marriage broken by the intrusion of a third party. If you ask the wrong question, you will surely get the wrong answer. Allegiance to the CGCM trumps the marriage vows every time. The right question is this: do you have a marriage?
I don't know why you're "Right on"ing AT. Go study that post real close again. That post didn't blame the "intrusion of a third party" weather it meant to or not. That was your own "decoy".
Scott writes, "The right question is this: do you have a marriage?"
If they have a marriage, then the church can't touch it no matter what. And if they don't have a marriage, then something like a church can suddenly manifest it, {and why should that alarm, because most couples as they're in the very heart of their marriage vows, are being overseen by a church government and its ordained officials}, and so why does the church get hammered on because they showed an error in the marriage, which according to scriptures they are ordained to be known or have the judgment to do.
It's one of the spouses that involves the third party. The third partner is always invited. And even if a third partner shows up at the door uninvited, and says, can I have sex here, the door will slam in their face if the marriage is good. So therefore it's first and foremost an inter "sacred circle" problem. All something like a church government does, is manifest a troubled marriage. It don't matter that they were invited or came uninvited. The truth isn't how they came, the truth is what was revealed.
goatlady, me thinks you are in a pickle. I can only answer for myself. When my husband told me he was leaving the h church because God called him out, I told him I would leave with him. But God knew my heart and knew that if anything went wrong, I'd say, "We have to go back to the h church." God gave me a special experience and I Knew that I could leave with him and know that we wouldn/t have to go back when difficult times would come. My husband and myself know that God comes first in each of our lives and we come second. We respect each others decision on what God is telling them to do and support each other then. Your going to have to decide what comes first in your life and then see what is second. calledoutPTL
*...the times I made decisions based on the sustainability of my childs emotional and spiritual health in her adult life are the times I feel most at peace with..."
The self-sacrifice described in orphan's answer isn't easy but worth it in the long run. I've experienced a similar situation as "mom", the original poster, but in reverse. I dont regret putting my children first, because of the reasons orphan gives. It is we adults who have had time to form our beliefs and are now responsible to give our kids a stable environment, good training and allow them to leave the nest with the best possible foundation. The training is key. Most of the ex-Holdemans on the forum understand how huge the issue of raising your kids in the H church can seem. If you dont both agree to leave the Holdemans and there is a schism in the home because of a god, it could cause scars on the children that would result in them leaving God altogether. God knows your heart and he provides grace.
I'm coming from the angle that the marriage relationship is repairable. Make counseling a condition.
Brent, I agree with your post that a third party cannot penetrate the sacred inner circle of a marriage without an invitation from one of the parties within the circle.
That also is parallel to Scott's view.
But even if an invitation is given from within, there is a responsibility of the third party to decline.
Goatlady cannot prevent the third party's intrusion. We know her husband issued the invitation, now what solution do you reccommend?
Scott asked, "Is this a marriage?" .Good question.
I recommend Goatlady take up her headship. You can't bank anything on that people are suppose to decline. People generally don't decline sex.
The person getting push out is not alleviated from what they then should do. You blame it on that they are suppose to decline, you give away your hope to solve it, your authority and your responsibility. The person or government that you say should decline, takes these things from you. They already have your spouse, and you give them your headship? WHAT?
What "headship" does Goatlady have, or can she assert hers over her husbands's? Or are there TWO heads in her marriage? Can a government have two heads?
Your not getting the point that Brent is talking about. Have him explain more on it.
When you stand before God do you think that "my husband didn't want me to serve God the way you wanted me to will cut it with God??" Goatlady is going to have to decide what God is asking her to do. Each person is responsible for their own salvation. Don't put that on the men. Marriage is one in body soul and spirit. Without that you aren't one. calledoutPTL
"What "headship" does Goatlady have, or can she assert hers over her husbands's? Or are there TWO heads in her marriage? Can a government have two heads?"
ATL,
What headship, what government, what two heads? Her husband is seeking covering in the Holdeman church. Are you telling me her headship is in the Holdeman church through her husband? That's two heads if you ask me.
ATL, Calledout is understanding this better.
When it's all said and done, women will ask, why didn't I claim my rights, why didn't I love my soul, why didn't I love life, why didn't I suffer for my husband to see if God would turn his heart, why didn't I choose liberty?
mom196505...
People on this site will give you all kinds of advice. Some of it may be totally awesome and some of it may be the worse advice ever. However... if that advice does not line up with what God is speaking to you... in your heart... than all of the advice, rather good or bad, is totally useless and will delay what God is wanting to do in your and in your families life.
There are lots of things you could try and do. I am sure you have thought of many of them.. i.e.
1. Attend the H church only.
2. Attend the H church when your husband goes AND attend other church services at different times than the H services. This could include Bible Studies, etc.
3. Attend a different church only.
4. Attend a different church and attend the H church only when your church is not having services.
5. Do not attend any church, stay home and clean.
6. Do not attend any church and spend that time reading the Bible.
7. Do not attend any church. Use the time to go out and do something that you want.
8. Or it could be several of the above at different times in your life.
It is better to simply remember and follow the scripture.. seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all of these things shall be added unto you. Ask God to speak directly to your heart and He will. We had an awesome message today on prayer. It was about how we can simply pray.. and that's a part of praying.. BUT then we need to expect God to answer as the other part. He WANTS to communicate with us. All of the good things He brings into our lives.. are a part of His way of communicating with us. Too cool!! Do like it says they did in Acts. They gathered and prayed and waited for the Holy Spirit to come like Jesus said would happen. They knew Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth and He would guide them and show them things to come. So... you can do just like they did in Acts... pray.. and pray some more... expecting and waiting for the Holy Spirit to come and lead you in God's will for you.
<< It is better to simply remember and follow the scripture.. seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all of these things shall be added unto you. Ask God to speak directly to your heart and He will.>>>
Poor answer Lark.
Your admonishment has as many outcomes as there are people and religions in the world. Some (most?) of these outcomes are extremely destructive! The holdies believe they are following your advice to the letter.
<<< It is better to simply remember and follow the scripture.. seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all of these things shall be added unto you. Ask God to speak directly to your heart and He will.>>>
This advice to goatlady pisses me off. The problem with goatladies marriage is that goatladies husband is doing exactly what Lark advised, i.e., seeking the kingdom of heaven first and his wife second, and of course, this means making the Church first because the Church, Kingdom of Heaven, Christ, etc. etc. are all interchangeable terms to a holdie...
....or maybe we can get around this little problem by letting Lark define "seeking the Kingdom first" for all the rest of us so we don't mess it up and get off track, and of course, Lark would never say this, but what Lark is thinking is that Lark is spiritual and goatladies husband is merely religious....well maybe....lets make no claims but let our wisdom prove whether this is so or not.
Scott... hmmm... to encourage someone to seek God.. causes you to get angry... interesting....
Anyway.. to comment on your response...
Yeah.. following God can have a lot of different outcomes. Yeah.. some of those outcomes could be destructive. Yeah, the H believe they are following my advice to a tee AND some of them ARE following God. (just like there are SOME that are following God in my church.)
I'm curious.. do you think Goatlady's husband should seek HER first? HMMMM.... If so then goatlady would become his god. I totally agree with you... that goatladys husband should NOT put the H church before goatlady. Do you know if he is doing that? I don't know that.
WOW! I am totally amazed that you can now know what I am thinking. Where did you acquire that skill? Well.. I think you need to practice this newfound skill a bit.. cause you are wrong. I have no idea rather goatlady's husband is being religious, spiritual or both. Hmm.. are your using your newly acquired skill on goatlady's husband too? To where you KNOW that he is putting the H church in place of seeking God's kingdom first? Just a thought.... it's possible that you are wrong on him too.....
Seeking the kingdom of God first is not for me to determine for you or anyone else. As I am sure you well know.. the scriptures say that each one should work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.
As far as how spiritual I am... I have found out that the more spiritual Ithink I am... the less spiritual I am.
The way I understand it.. the more people seek God.. eventually they will know what God wants for their lives. And knowing what God wants for a person's life is NOT something that OTHER people can tell them. Seeking God is not something you can put a husband or wife in front of... AND it is something that a husband or wife needs to walk through their marriage with patience towards each other as EACH of them discover how God is leading them.
As I was thinking some more about this... I was thinking about what seeking the kingdom of God looks like. Since it can't be physical place on the earth (yet).. than what is it? Is it love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness, patience, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control? Is it seeking to please God by doing these things in faith? I'm throwing out questions.. at this point and not saying by my questions what I think. Maybe this should be on another thread.
I keep forgetting my login and having to make new ones!!
Lark, your last paragraph,
"The way I understand it.. the more people seek God.. eventually they will know what God wants for their lives. And knowing what God wants for a person's life is NOT something that OTHER people can tell them. Seeking God is not something you can put a husband or wife in front of... AND it is something that a husband or wife needs to walk through their marriage with patience towards each other as EACH of them discover how God is leading them."
is very good!!!!
To mom... Looking back on the last few years of my life and it actually has taken YEARS, I've realized that I got so used to my H. preachers, brothers and sisters advice, words of encouragement, and "lights" to be "my light" conscience, ALMOST like my god. What they said was what I believed and what I patterned after cuz it was so easy to hear them and do what they wanted and I actually even felt peace in my heart if they told me they believed I had done all God had asked me to do. It's taken me so long and still I'm learning and have a long way to go.. but it's true, if you seek God and His ways with all your heart, He will show you and don't get discouraged if it's not right away and don't give up ever!! Rely on Him and not on people to tell you what you need to do.. Not that there aren't times you need help from your "brothers and sisters and preachers" Read God's word, pray for wisdom, pray for discernment, pray to hear His voice, pray for courage to follow and MEAN IT!! This has helped in my life, not even realizing it at the time but looking back from where I am now.. And I STILL pray it and know I have a looong way to go, but also know God is faithful and has PROMISED us He is listening and will answer us! It's almost as if even tho I knew God was in Heaven and loved me, I didn't REALLY realize I could have a PERSONAL relationship with Him and I could be led by Him and it might not always line up with what I was taught but I needed to go with what He was telling me in His still small voice instead of what the easy to hear, see and talk with people were telling me. I don't know if this helps at all but just in case it does... I say go where your soul is fed and listen for God to tell you and don't be discouraged if you don't hear right away cuz He might be testing to know how strong your desire is to really know...
Scott.. you said, "This advice to goatlady pisses me off." Isn't the phrase "pisses me off" used to let some know that something angers them? Or majoryly annoys them?
I can only tell you that there are always blessings to obedience. I know of and have experienced many situations where following a husband/my husband's lead with a good attitude, resulted in God being able to work in the husband's heart too. When we resist our husbands, it only makes them dig in deeper and more resistant to us, even when we are right about a situation.
About following our feelings...they can be too fickle and deceptive. Follow God's word. That is the ONLY stable and sure thing!! The Word says to win them by our meek and quiet spirit...and chaste, or pure, life; about submitting being equivilent to being spirit filled (Ephesians), etc. Read the Word, pray for guidance and be TRULY open, God will bless you.
One's church can't save them. The second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. If we truly do that, we put our spouse before ourselves. Both spouses do that. That means neither one requiring the other to attend a church they don't think is right. If they both back off attending their church and pray and put God first (the first commandment) God will lead them together. It might take years to finally find a church they both enjoy, but if God is the focus and the other is shown love as much as self what an example to the child! Churches don't save. God does.
I don't think this is dreamland. Is one required to love unselfishly even though the other doesn't embrace this concept. I believe so. I'm not saying it's easy.
Is not one required to love even when the other does not? I think so. That's paraphrased.
I certainly see the merit in that powerful statement.
We may get on top of the situation with less struggle if we come from the premise that it's a [privilage] rather than a requirement to love when we are not so loved and adored!
I wrote a poem to my wife recently in a moment of inspiration. One of the punch lines went something like this; I'll be your stallion and run with you to high places [just you and I], if you will run with me, as opposed to running against me.
Now I add; the male psychology needs to be believed in to find his equalibrium and balance in high places, at which point he can lead out and run with a heart that highly values and cherishes her. Eve failed Adam in this matter.
The female needs to be adored and cherished in order to have good faith in her husband. It could be that Adam failed Eve in this important matter. As Christ first loves us and we come to [know] this, we place our faith in him and run with Him to high places as He continues to cherish us!
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Mar 10, 2009 2:25 PM
What I have found interesting in this thread, is that no one knows all the details so no honest opinion can made. We can only talk about our situations which in this case could be way off base. Doug says the woman should fell loved and cherished. But when there is a conflict as this, neither one feels loved,cherished, or respected. I have read no place in the Bible where a spouse is suppose to be number 1 in their lives, only Jesus Christ. Only through Him can the rest follow, and for a real marriage that God intended, it needs both partners to have Jesus as #1 in each of their lives. calledoutPTL
Isn't loving your neighbor (in this case your spouse), and putting him/her first the definition of loving the Lord. After loving God, that is his first commandment to us. So if we're going to honor him we do it by honoring our spouse. How can we show our love to God any more clearly than that. It isn't about trying to discern which church God wants us to go to until after we're spiritually one in the Lord. That comes first before being one with any church.
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Read God's word, pray for wisdom, pray for discernment, pray to hear His voice, pray for courage to follow and MEAN IT!! This has helped in my life, not even realizing it at the time but looking back from where I am now.. And I STILL pray it and know I have a looong way to go, but also know God is faithful and has PROMISED us He is listening and will answer us! It's almost as if even tho I knew God was in Heaven and loved me, I didn't REALLY realize I could have a PERSONAL relationship with Him and I could be led by Him and it might not always line up with what I was taught but I needed to go with what He was telling me in His still small voice instead of what the easy to hear, see and talk with people were telling me. I don't know if this helps at all but just in case it does... I say go where your soul is fed and listen for God to tell you and don't be discouraged if you don't hear right away cuz He might be testing to know how strong your desire is to really know...
