When God gave the ten commandments, they were clear and still are. When Jesus presented the plan of salvation, it is clear. John 3:16. I like Romans 10:9-17 explainion as well. What is so hard about this? Is it too simple? Why do people feel that this isn't enough? calledoutPTL

The devil is strong. If we look on the dark side, The cup can be half full or half empty. Some of us have had to give up before we let God.

Howie, your correct in what you said. What do you think is the simplicity of God? calledoutPTL

This is a subject that has been confusing to me. I learned, by experience - not by how I was taught - that the way of God is far simpler than the way I was taught. Yet I was expelled because I turned away from the simplicity of God. Make sense to you??? It sure doesn't to me. It amazes me how some people understand the complicated ways of religion far easier than the simple ways of God.

**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**

I have a friend who married without church sanction, they were both expelled. When he said to minister that they got expelled for getting married the minister defensively responded that they weren't and couldn't be expelled for marrying, they were expelled for going against the doctrine of the church. Which doctrine? The marriage doctrine!!!

My head is spinning!!!!!!

Another question yoyo. What kind of religious service did Rebecca have with Issac in the OT? The servant loaded her with jewelry and took her back to Issac but it doesn't mention a priest marrying them or anything. Maybe they had a celebration of some kind. calledoutPTL

I saw a couple together the other day and in observing their relationship concluded that they were not married. Now perhaps they were in law- I never asked- but in relationship there was something missing. You meet alot of couples that leave you no doubt. Being as a churches benefit to us is for our physical well being as well as our emotional and spiritual, one of the main functions it should give us is the start of a strong home. As for how Issac an Rebecca acheived marriage, this is clear. There was parental support and involvement. We can be confident that before God and man and in their conscience they KNEW they were married properly. That is an important ingredient to start a home.

We can be confident that before God and man and in their conscience they KNEW they were married properly. That is an important ingredient to start a home.---That is very true and I agree completely. But I have always wondered where, when, or if the OT had a religious ceremony, besides the 7 days of celebration when a couple got married. Actually that probably was a religious celebration. It was a very signifiant ceremony when they became betrothed and that is what Jesus compared God and His bride to. calleodutPTL

We are deviating from the thread subject here but it is interesting to consider some points of marriage. Pretty much society considers sex before marriage to be moraly wrong. When society puts its stamp on the union this restriction is removed. The marriage vows usually include faithfulness as well as emotional support of some sort or at least the promise to not withhold the right to counceling etc. When society approves through this vow exchange the couple is considered married. The point is that the couple performs to a specific code of society and then is considered married. YoYo considered her friend to be unjustly criticized in reguard to marriage. Now what do we think. Should a church approve any union that is "legal" or any set of vows or when should a church accept or not accept a marriage. Should the legal dominate the church or the church the legal eg. plural marriges performed by fundamental Mormans? I understand that YoYo's friend was considered married? so can't right now think of an example the other way.

notg. Yes it appears it has diviated from the original thread, or is this an example how man complicates the issues and gets away from the simplicity of God? calledoutPTL

No. It is more like phoning the banker about the line of credit and talking about the hockey scores as well.

LOL calledoutPTL

The intent was to identify an example of the "simple" way of us H. But really where does a minister's authority lie in regards to dictating marriage? How do the below verses relate to this thought?


1 Cor 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

yoho. The lifestyle is might be considered simple, but the religion is not. I have nothing against a simple lifestyle and but feel it should be a matter of choice and not a religion.

But those verses you were quoting in 1 Tim., let's start a new thread on those, okay? I'll answer what I think about them. calledoutPTL

Erv...Have started new thread.

One of the reasons I consider the h religion as complex, as you don't know for sure what is wrong or right in your lifestyle. Some years somethings are okay and others it isn't and church discipline follows if you don't concede to the change. Furthering your education, headcovering style or lightning rods are some examples. One year they were okay and the next year wrong. Men make it complex. Choosing something as simple as choosing a dress pattern all of a sudden becomes complex. Actually most religions are complex because men tends to decide what is wrong or right based on their own/conference interpretation of the word, therefore complex reigns. calledoutPTL

A person that is confused as far as church goes- whether you are Mormon, Catholic, Mennonite or any denomination- has a focus problem. They are putting church in the place where their relationship with God belongs. Church is a benefit to man. The access is through Christ and if a relationship is not in place there is no way to find the church.

notg, I agree with what you wrote until this: The access is through Christ and if a relationship is not in place there is no way to find the church.-- If you call "the church" a particular denomination I disagree, but if you mean the church of Jesus Christ/God which is not a denomination, I agree. There wasn't denominations at first, just house churches. calledoutPTL

"One of the reasons I consider the h religion as complex, as you don't know for sure what is wrong or right in your lifestyle. Some years somethings are okay and others it isn't and church discipline follows if you don't concede to the change. Furthering your education, headcovering style or lightning rods are some examples. One year they were okay and the next year wrong. Men make it complex. Choosing something as simple as choosing a dress pattern all of a sudden becomes complex. Actually most religions are complex because men tends to decide what is wrong or right based on their own/conference interpretation of the word, therefore complex reigns. "calledoutPTL

Yes and the rules with the H church keep changeing. It is are to hit a moving target.

>>If you call "the church" a particular denomination I disagree, but if you mean the church of Jesus Christ/God which is not a denomination, I agree. calledoutPTL < <br>
To me it wouldn't matter how a person tended to look at it, denomination or otherwise. Where ever you find yourself, at that point, get together with God and He will present to you His Church. And, by the way, You will never move beyond that to a place where the focus is no longer God and you. The purpose of Church is to aid in the "God and you" relationship. God's Church lives. It moves, breathes, and works. You can't pin it down any more then you can pin down the wind. When all you have for a church is what someone said a couple hundred or even a couple thousand years ago, you still do not have the real thing.

Okay notg, if you really believe what you wrote, (you being a h Mennonite as I think you are, if I'm wrong, correct me) then the fact that I'm expelled won't matter to you and you would be able to sit down and eat with us and havae spiritual felowship with us. You would need to skirt around certain spiritual issues. calledoutPTL

>>you would be able to sit down and eat with us and havae spiritual felowship with us. You would need to skirt around certain spiritual issues. calledoutPTL< <br>
How exactly do these two thoughts fit together. How do you skirt around issues and fellowship? Sounds more like "uneasy truce" to me!

"Fellowship" can be found between two bricklayers with different beliefs. Christian fellowship can only be found between Christians. Are you suggesting that you could have spiritual fellowship with me except for some of my beliefs?

As far as if I go to church or where are we free to discuss this with the rules of this forum?

notg wrote: Christian fellowship can only be found between Christians. Are you suggesting that you could have spiritual fellowship with me except for some of my beliefs?----- Let me explain that further. I'm not suggesting anything except that fellow christians should be able to sit down and pray and share with each other about the Lord. Differences in relgion in minute areas as long as the basic plan of salvation (the blood of Jesus on the cross) shouldn't come into play unless one person makes it so. WE have had christian fellowship with other holdeman people before and enjoyed it. They had made the same kind of statement you had made on the previous post so I was wondering if you really meant what you wrote. So now, let me repeat my question, now. Would you be able to have christian fellowship with us? calledoutPTL

As far as if I go to church or where are we free to discuss this with the rules of this forum?

Sorry, I shouldn't have put you in that spot. Ignore my last post, if you can't post that on this forum. I can understand where maybe you wouldn't want to do it on this forum. If you want to answer me by personal e-mail, you can. calledoutPTL

LOL PTL you're missing the point. You are convinced that "church" is the thing. You have decided that I am a Holdeman Mennonite and that that makes a difference that is unreconcilable between us. Let's make a senario. Say I'm an Agnostic. Can we have Christian Fellowship? Of course not.

Now you are suggesting that for some reason that the ability for us to fellowship rests with me. How do you know what I believe except for a feeling you get from a few of my posts. I have no idea who you are or what church you are afilliated with. What I do know is you seem to profess to know God as I do as well. Perhaps we COULD fellowship starting on that basis. Time would tell.


>>Sorry, I shouldn't have put you in that spot. Ignore my last post, if you can't post that on this forum. I can understand where maybe you wouldn't want to do it on this forum. If you want to answer me by personal e-mail, you can. calledoutPTL< <br>
You never put me on the spot. I AM suprised that you would dig for such info after the effort this forum has put into offering anonymity for Holdeman people. From my perspective, if for us to "fellowship" - "church" would come before "christian" -then barriers would be the basis rather fellowship.

I think you have missed the point. Look at what I wrote before:--WE have had christian fellowship with other holdeman people before and enjoyed it. They had made the same kind of statement you had made on the previous post so I was wondering if you really meant what you wrote.-
So I would be able to. But I know that some x-s wouldn't do that as well as some h Mennonites wouldn't be able. Your right to do takes getting to know each other before we could. -- As far as digging for info, you volunteered that on another post what you were. I didn't ask. calledoutPTL

>>:--WE have had christian fellowship with other holdeman people before and enjoyed it.< <br>
Does this prove that you were a christian or that the holdeman people were christian, or does it prove that you had something in common with them.

Why do christian's always catalogue. "where do you go to church?" etc. It makes good small talk but doesn't lead to depth.


Where did I say I was holdeman?

it proved that we could accept each other as saved and had a relationship with the almighty God.

You a h? I got an idea, why don't you search out all your threads and posting and prove me wrong? LOL calledoutPTL

The crux, as I read you, is this. If I was confirmed to you to be a holdeman then what I say is tainted. If I was confirmed to be say pentecostal then I might mean something else; or for that matter if I wrote something and signed it Scott it might mean something else again.

Now I would like to present to you AGAIN the idea that none of this matters. What matters is that God and I have a real relationship and that you and God also have a real relationship. When these relationships are intact then we can fellowship. To me this wipes out all the complexity and brings the simplicity that this thread is supposed to be about. Isn't this how you see it as well?

When I was a young man , and impressionable >> I asked the H staff what

was the proper way to marrie in the H church ?

There exact words was > It will come to you < <br>
Yet It is so important to follow there teaching [ doctrins ]

How could I have missed there teaching ?

My three older siblings all married out of there church .

yoyo, wrote: What matters is that God and I have a real relationship and that you and God also have a real relationship. When these relationships are intact then we can fellowship. To me this wipes out all the complexity and brings the simplicity that this thread is supposed to be about. Isn't this how you see it as well? --- Yes I do. Thanks for putting it in such simplicity.

Then man comes in and complex starts such. " Are you sure your relatinship is intact with God? You know how you how you were raised." Or "Are you sure your faith isn't in belonging to the h church? Or that your beard or covering is going to save you?" Both sides are guilty of this and most people know it. They think that one or the other thinks so, so they skirt around issues not wanting to cause trouble of arguments thus stifling the christian fellowship the two could have otherwise. Most conversations or fellowships are around a table eating so sometimes the distance between two tables make it very difficult especially with the silent message of why the two tables. Interesting how a charisamatic and a baptist can usually have a fellowhsip together even believing a little different. calledoutPTL

The complexity is why you missed it, Howie. calledoutPTL

PTL Your post says
>>yoyo, wrote: What matters is that God and I have a real relationship and that you and God also have a real relationship. When these relationships are intact then we can fellowship. To me this wipes out all the complexity and brings the simplicity that this thread is supposed to be about. Isn't this how you see it as well? < <br>

Actually I wrote that not YoYo.


>>Then man comes in and complex starts such. " Are you sure your relatinship is intact with God? You know how you how you were raised." Or "Are you sure your faith isn't in belonging to the h church? Or that your beard or covering is going to save you?" Both sides are guilty of this and most people know it. They think that one or the other thinks so, so they skirt around issues not wanting to cause trouble of arguments thus stifling the christian fellowship the two could have otherwise. Most conversations or fellowships are around a table eating so sometimes the distance between two tables make it very difficult especially with the silent message of why the two tables. Interesting how a charisamatic and a baptist can usually have a fellowhsip together even believing a little different. calledoutPTL < <br>

As I read your posts I really wonder. Aren't you rather stuck in "church" or more accurately in "holdeman". Being a member, or having left a church, it is equally easy to be obsessed with proving the right or wrong of a church. If we are in -it's "the church needs to be right" and if we are out- its "the church needs to be wrong." Check out writings from any people that have been members of fundamentalist churches.

Get past that and the complexity vanishes.

I don't think we can begin to comprehend the simplicity of God without understanding a little of the Love of God, and the way He sees us.
If I believe I am but dust, and worthless, I always need to complicate the scriptures. I find it hard to comprehend that God loves me enough to send His Son to die for me, or that He calls me His child.
If I start to understand how God sees me I no longer find it so difficult to understand that I don't need to earn my keep. I now serve Him (obedience) with a heart of adoration, not from the aspect I am maintaining my Salvation or based on fear.
Knowing just a bit of how God sees enables me to look at others from the perspective I see myself, a child of God, and no longer feel the need to compare as much. I also don't feel so great a need to be a fruit inspector, I understand that I can never judge where that person is at, because I trust God knows where they have been and where they are going. I need only love.
I still have much growing to do, but as I understand God's love for me more, spiritually really does get much simpler!

Sorry about the mixup of who wrote what.

I have made no secret of the fact we are x'ed. I also have made no secret of the fact that I believe some people are saved and some lost in any denomination including the h church. I also make no secret that I believe that the OTVC doctrine is one that is one of the most dangerous doctrines there is because there is a big temptation to put your faith in what that church believe instead of God. That one example of how men take the simple, turning into complex.

Since God delivered us from denominations, we have been able to worship in many denominations and have had christian fellowship with them. Since the expereince of God touching you is an individual simple act, we have felt the presence of the Lord in the h church.(We have been back in the h church for weddings and funerals). In fact one time I had a hard time not raising my hands in honour and praise of our Lord when the h choir was singing "Holy is the Lord".

Me thinks you don't know me. calledoutPTL

PTL, I think I know you and we really are not on a different page. Very good post; we may have some differences of understanding but I am not bothered by that. God bless.

Good point Grace; as believers we need to take Eph. 1 at face value and realize our worth and high standing in Christ. However, this comes by realizing that without faith in Christ, we miss it.

Eph. 1 p; "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ... adopted as sons (and daughters) by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved... redemption according to the riches of His grace... "

CalledOut wrote: "and then man comes in and complexity starts..."

So very true, and this has two reasons that I can think of (and maybe more).

1) Organization - cnce you organize, then you have to create and enforce standards, i.e., is this man a smoker...can we allow that in our organization? You have to decide what to leave in and what to leave out.

2) Black/White view of salvation instead of a restoration view, i.e., are you going to heaven, or are you going to hell? Are you a sheep or a goat?

>>Me thinks you don't know me. calledoutPTL < <br>
A true point. I deliberated awhile if I was going to make that last post for that reason. To me-whether you fit the mold or not(we all do to a certain extent)- the amount of church comparing we do is what makes the complexity. Nondenominational, interdenominational, or denominational are three words that christians throw around. Would it be possible that the real thing would not need any of these words?

You got it there, Scott, to my way of thinking.

Yes fellows; but can a church function without organization of some sort ? Even house churches of the NT had some organization and standards. Also, are we as believers not able to work through complexities ?

As to "salvation", I do not take a hard a fast rule that salvation happens in a moment of time, in a split second. Not sure how to explain, but God does not toss someone away because they have not "gone forward".

>>Yes fellows; but can a church function without organization of some sort ? Even house churches of the NT had some organization and standards. Also, are we as believers not able to work through complexities ?< <br>
What I am thinking is that if God is at the helm then He will have ways of showing what He wants done. An example of how this is done is when 2 or more christians are looking to find God's will- say how to reconcile a bad business deal- and after discussing the situation it seems there is an action that everyone involved feels is the right way to go. To me this is direction found through having the Spirit of God. Of course it is also possible- if the people do not have the Spirit of God- that there can be direction found as well. The key again is that you need to be in tune to God to hear God.

>>but God does not toss someone away because they have not "gone forward".< <br>
He has been known to send a whale or an army of Assyrians or a Light from Heaven. Even a talking donkey has been used to get the message across. Scott might be able to use these examples for his "round pen" theory.

The roundpen is a reality and not a theory. It is the only honorable and noble position to hold.

If I own and have authority over a disobedience horse, I send it to the round pen, not the glue factory. And by the way, a human cannot force the will of a 1200 pound rebellious horse, but the roundpen brings it "new light", and even if you could force its will with ropes, hobbles, whips, etc., it would be futile because an angry, fearful horse learns nothing under these coercive conditions.

Question: why don't the natural things of our life teach us anything about spiritual life. Paul wrote in Romans 2 that God's nature is ascertained by observing creation. God gave us children to teach us that His approach to our failure is NOT the approach as currently taught.


Even our cold civil system of justice, ineffective as it is, knows better than modern Christians. We don't send felons to torture chambers, but to "reformatories", "correctional facilities", etc.

Jesus came to restore that which was lost, NOT to identify where we are going when we die. I completely embrace the restorational view of Christianity, and completely reject the "are you saved or lost" view. Being a human is hard. It is one disappointment after another. We all are failures compared to what could be. Even the worst among us do not deserve eternal torment.

Nondenominational, interdenominational, or denominational are three words that christians throw around. Would it be possible that the real thing would not need any of these words? AMEN AMEN

The only things names do is identify ones belief in things that don't matter. calledoutPTL

Hank and notg: but God does not toss someone away because they have not "gone forward". Very true since God is in the restoring business as I think Scott wrote. calledoutPTL

>>Jesus came to restore that which was lost,< <br>
>>We all are failures compared to what could be. Even the worst among us do not deserve eternal torment.< <br>
19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. 20. and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. Matthew 28

What is the best way to get the Word out.

NT house churches did have some. they had deacons who cared for the widows and orphans. They also had leaders. But the real organization was by the Holy spirit. One verse says that if one had a psalm, sing it, one a hymn, one a word, or exhortation, etc. It wasn't dependent on one person to do the whole thing. One thing to remember is that the NT church people had no background, knowledge, forefathers, no BIBLE to read (They only had letters that were wrote to certain people and people assembled together to listen to someone read them.) of what this new birth was or how it would change their lives. The disciples and Paul had a lot of teaching to do regarding customs and traditions and how to deal with them. Not to cause riots might have been one of them. calledoutPTL

Maybe the simplicity of God is starting to come forth in some of us! calledoutPTL

The church I go to defies all the questions about what will happen if there is not some organization. As called out mentioned, maybe sometimes the Holy Spirit does a better job of leading than man does. In order for this approach to work, there must be a group of people who are very committed to one another and to the cause that they are working for. They must all be keen to the Holy Spirit and allow him to work. Inn this church, the pastor refuses to be designated as the leader, instead being one of the elders. He totally believes that it is impossible for a man to have power and not misuse it. He is looked up to and loved as a leader but he never assumes anything regarding that position. There is never any prescribed form for worship; instead every time we go there we know that the service will be unique and interesting. Sometimes there is no preaching at all, but just people bringing a song, a prayer, a testimony, etc. It usually lasts around 3 hours on Sunday night and often that long on Wednesday. On Sunday morning we often never move from where we are having Sunday School, but if we are enjoying ourselves we stay right there and continue with what we are doing. The operation is very much the way I would imagine a house church to be. No one is ever rejected or shunned and if a person falls away, they go away on their own. If they have a problem and stay, they can expect to be loved and prayed for and restored. The church isn't referred to as denominational, non denominational, or interdenominational. It's just THE CHURCH at Mayfield, where Christ is the head of the church. It has been a real eyeopener for me. I have been there 2 1/2 years and am still quite pleased with it. It has never disappointed me yet! I highly recommend it as a method of operation.

mutterlode, that is the simplicity of God in a church situation. To me that was how it was in the book of Acts. calledoutPTL