If you graduated from school at age 14 and not because you were a genius.

When your dad bought a different car the first thing he did was remove the radio, and turn the white walls in.

You were not allowed to date a girl before marriage, but kissing another man on the lips was encouraged anytime.

Putting your money in the bank and drawing interest was forbidden, but borrowing money and paying interest to another, thereby causing them to sin, was okay.

Your favorite food is Graham Cracker Fluff.

You're a grown man and you need the internet, you have to get permission from the "staff" first.

You've seen the Martyr's Mirror or a set of TV Trays used as wedding gifts.

(actually just knowing what TV tables are!) And why do they use these portable little folding tables when they are named for the convenience of eating dinner in front of the (gasp) TV??

When you think a tropical vacation destination is Yuma.

You know what Sunday cloths are
and that brown shoes are sinfull

"You're a grown man and you need the internet, you have to get permission from the "staff" first."

Bryon,

You act like you don't know what to do about it. Why don't you just leave the church???

Brent

Brent, In reply to your question. We not only left the church but we moved 100 mi. away from the nearest congregation. We were exed for heresy and spiritual adultery. I asked for biblical proof that they were the OTVC. It was easier to ex us then show us.


What has continued to amaze me is that we were exed for heresy. My belief is that heresy is teaching something that is not biblical. All I asked for was to meet with the staff and have them show me in the bible where this is taught. They could or would not do this. I firmly believe that the whole h hierarchy is guilty of heresy. Go figure.......

You know what OTVC stands for.

"Brent, In reply to your question. We not only left the church but we moved 100 mi. away from the nearest congregation. We were exed for heresy and spiritual adultery. I asked for biblical proof that they were the OTVC. It was easier to ex us then show us."

Bryon,

That clears that up. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Now you ought to be able to overcome them.

Brent

Brent "That clears that up. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Now you ought to be able to overcome them."



Except that they stole my family from me. I was talking to one of my h friends recently. He said Bryon, I feel that you hold more against me then I do against you. I said you are exactly right. I told him it's like the school yard bully that is taking the younger boys lunch money by force. The little boy cries and the bully asked why are crying, in a concerned voice. All you have to do is give me your lunch money and I won't hit you anymore. The h church takes what is rightfully yours, and then acts all innocent and wonders, why are you hurt. Just submit to the "church" and you can have your family back.

"Except that they stole my family from me. I was talking to one of my h friends recently. He said Bryon, I feel that you hold more against me then I do against you. I said you are exactly right. I told him it's like the school yard bully that is taking the younger boys lunch money by force. The little boy cries and the bully asked why are crying, in a concerned voice. All you have to do is give me your lunch money and I won't hit you anymore. The h church takes what is rightfully yours, and then acts all innocent and wonders, why are you hurt. Just submit to the "church" and you can have your family back."

Bryon,

The picture is much bigger than this. To begin with they can't take what you don't relinquish. But if by force, then the picture grows giving you no ground to even look at the pat arguments of your post.

Let me hint to you Bryon! Is the school ground the only place to deal with a bully wanting your lunch money? Why have you confined yourself to the school yard, or in your case, to the church?

Next, what is the cause that I'm in this predicament? What I'm saying is, after the bully is gone, I could cry out as if to God, and say, why am I here and my lunch money stolen? How does this concern me, I'm a party to it, why?

Bryon, if you've got any spiritual understanding, you'll know right where I'm headed with this. Just let me say, I'm headed straight for personal sovereignty and authority.

Brent

Bryon:

That's an excellent point. They treat ex'es like sh*t and then wonder why they (the ex'es) react negatively to them. Collectively they are one the most narcissistic and socially rude and obtuse bunch of people I have ever come across.

Back on track - i.e. How to tell ih you were raised H:

You don't think it's odd when people preface most items with 'THE' as in THE radio, THE TV, THE beard, THE head covering, etc.

You know what the term 'our people' refers to.

You are used to people (not) 'believing in' things

Example:

'Our people' don't 'believe in' THE radio, but we do 'believe in' THE BEARD.

"Collectively they are one the most narcissistic and socially rude and obtuse bunch of people I have ever come across."

Boy Steven, you sure do come from some low heritage. I'm surprised you admit to it!!!

But here study this, "seeing how much inhumanity there is in man, how much savage brutality lies hidden under refined, cultured politeness, and, my God! even in a man whom the world accepts as a gentleman and a man of honor".

Read this in "The Overcoat" a couple night ago. It's by Nikolai Gogol.

Brent

One can't choose one's heritage. If only...

If the only musical instrument you were allowed was the pitch pipe.

"One can't choose one's heritage. If only..."

Steven, but one can see flesh is flesh, and I wouldn't give my heritage a different kind of flesh. You know the Christians tried to do this to Jesus and he didn't fall for it.

Don't let appearance fool you Steven. Refined appearance is just as ugly deep in the flesh. So I would at least say to myself, my heritage is on par with the rest of the world, what do you say?

Brent

you know your a holdeman when your favorite singer is Brother John Koehn.

You think King James and John Holdeman were relatives.

You think "quarterly" refers to a Sunday School book.

You know how to play "Rock of Ages" on the harmonica.

You think "Christian Endeavor" is a type of concert.

The picture is much bigger than this. To begin with they can't take what you don't relinquish. But if by force, then the picture grows giving you no ground to even look at the pat arguments of your post.

Let me hint to you Bryon! Is the school ground the only place to deal with a bully wanting your lunch money? Why have you confined yourself to the school yard, or in your case, to the church?


Brent, I have a nephew that was about 9 at the time, and his 14 year old male cousin molested him. Now my young nephew may have sort of gone along with it, but for the most part, he was totally innocent, yet it was noticed that he became suicidal, and very unhappy. So much so that my wife mentioned it to me. Now, I sort of think all men are decadent liars, and being that this boy is one of my favorite nephews, and his family one of my favorite relatives, i was extremely reluctant to suggest the probable cause of this boys' distress. But being as how i am an open sort as well, I mentioned to my wife to carefully entreat the boys mother to carefully question him regarding sexual abuse.

It turned out his cousin did it, The boy went to counseling and "got over it" but the family also keeps the other boy away.

In Holdemanism you have an anti truth or backward truth, in that the victim is the innocent one they are attempting to spiritually gang rape

Byron is referencing the whole body or 'church' as punishing him for his refusal to allow more spiritual gang rape of his private spiritual life. I totally see his point, and even if he didn't have a perfect Christ like attitude toward his legion of gang rapers, he nevertheless is the victim, and not the perpetrator.

No matter how hard you try to make the victim out to be the bad guy, he simply is not. It just show you how twisted they have turned your own head.

I applaud Byron for leaving and getting away from those spiritual rapists, and I pray for him in the sorrow of his loss of friends and family. But I do not belittle him for his acute sense of defilement at the hand of those that refuse to cease attempting to get him to genuflect at their evil altars of "holdebaal".

The people in that hell hole who go along with disciplining innocent relatives, are reprobates, and if they honestly thnk God will let them into eternal life, they prove by their actions that their beleif is a deception, for life begets life. These people do not love the truth that avoidance is reserved for fornicators of mothers, not people that question strange unprovable lies held in conference idolatries.

2Th 2:10* And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

You're an ex-holdeman if you can still do hurtful things to people with a soft loftly smile along with a persona of love about you. That's a learned behavior and it requires a diliverance by a Power much higher than ourselves. Upon deliverance you're no longer an ex-holdeman but rather a renewed man or woman!

You may well be an ex-holdeman if you get pressed into a realm of personal soverignity and control to comfortably survive. But to freely Love them more than they love you requires a baptism of God's Love, herein is the renewal of the man or the woman!

But to freely Love them more than they love you requires a baptism of God's Love

Doug, You simply are not allowed by them to "freely love" for no sooner than you attempt an intimate relationship (I don't mean sexually, but rather a relationship that is deeper than simply "how is the weather") , they will clip it off, snubb you, insult you and speak evil of you by their actions and evil speakings.

Their very demeanor forces their victim to react and that is what is intended, and when he does react it influences the perpetrator to continue doing it more, for they live in the "mirror of truth" or truth's reflection. They see their evil actions being reacted to, and credit the reaction to the conspiracy of the Holy Ghost working on the soul, but they fail to realize they are the one the Holy Ghost is attempting to soften,

Fred you amaze me! What you write about the h and THEN tell the submissive wive to follow her husband into that RELIGION! Her husband won't protect her by what is told on the forum. Me thinks you need to re-THINK your thinking on your advice sometimes. calledoutPTL

Fred;

I see what you see Fred and sometimes it takes years of pure love chipping away at granite which has a soft hue of color, in order to soften these type of folk up. Pastel colored granite is still granet. Pure love is finally the strongest of all strengths! This type of folk will initially resist pure love from the ex-holdeman because it is thought that this one is not even able to freely love.

Nicodemus, although a pharisee softend up rather quickly in the presence of pure love. The pharisees were known for their soft-spoken but hurtful words and ways as they went about in their elevated and assumed authorities. The pastel granite was to be feared. The pharisees had a doctrine of authority while retaining their soft colors of pink and blue and almond. Love has no doctrine of authority and yet has the greatest authority.

The pharisees marveled at both Jesus and his disciples because they spoke asertively and with authority.

We may be an ex-holdiman if we are just as hurtful as the holdeman person can be from his position of elevation, rather than we coming from the postion of pure love.

I would suppose that many got hurt in God's domain when Lucifer elevated himself above pure love! This one is soft-spoken as well, he whispers tempting and religious things to mankind, but he falls short of pure love.

"No matter how hard you try to make the victim out to be the bad guy, he simply is not. It just show you how twisted they have turned your own head."

Fred,

I wish you wouldn't unjustly accuse me and charge me. I don't take kindly to it. Why don't you study what I wrote?

Here's what I wrote - "Next, what is the cause that I'm in this predicament? What I'm saying is, after the bully is gone, I could cry out as if to God, and say, why am I here and my lunch money stolen? How does this concern me, I'm a party to it, why?"

Fred, didn't I cry out to God in my post showing that I thought I had been wronged by the bully? Didn't I show I thought my hands were tied on the school yard and I was a victim?

When that business was over and the fact was I was a victim, I, like a true man or woman should, took it to a higher level where now the bully could have no business with me. All I was asking God was way I was a party to this, what was God wanting to show me in this even though I may be innocent? Why did God think I needed this experience this way through an innocent thing on my part if that was the case, and what terrible things in righteousness was he trying to show me? Could I love yet through harrowing experience that didn't concern me? You know Fred, they killed innocent Jesus and he still loved?

My point is, when I'm a victim what can I do there anymore. I'm ravaged and robed and beaten by the bully. That's done on the books, it's over, I'm down, I'm crying, I'm hurt, it's over, I lost.

Fred, you're still fighting your problems with the Holdeman on their own grounds. And because of it, every spiritual and ordained thing is against you. You can't win your battles there, Fred. Totally impossible!!!

So Fred, let me once and for all establish some facts.

I recognize victims.
I don't try to make victims the bad guys.
I don't honor bullies.
I believe in justice and restitutions for all victims.

Do you understand this???????

Brent

Fred;

You spoke of a backward truth or an inverted truth, paraphrased. That is an accurate observation Fred. This is how the law works it's way through human affairs and the victim of the law alas becomes the [legal] perpetrater. The law criminalizes transgressions. The Spirit of Grace does not do this, the Spirit of Grace says this; neither do I condemn you but go and sin no more!

In the courts of secular law there is yet another law invented to hold at bay the evil inherant in the use of the law. The law is a package of hard objects and human beings are soft objects. The added law dictates that one is innocent until proven guilty.

If the attitude gets bad toward such a government it's a little like arguing with the highway patrol once you're caught in some traffic infraction. City hall is already right and simply cannot appreciate a contrary attitude. Whether accurate or not in the affairs of men and women the law is always right and can become very invasive. This whole process in what is known as christendom can be accomplished within the perimeters of personas of love.

In christendom the law principle actually defeats it's own purpose. This principle is not meant to survive a [living experience] with Christ Jesus! "I have been made dead to the law for righteousness by being made alive to Christ Jesus."

We teach our children the law and it's precepts; coming to a living relationshup with Christ Jesus as our righteousness the law-principle has already served it's purpose as a school-master to Christ; we are now dead to it, it must now be purged out rather than embraced and defended!

The things you mention Fred are what we should expect from a legal society that's already right. If we brush shoulders with a legal society we do well to see it as such and not expect more of it. We do well to know and understand of what sort our societies and sub-governments are. Now without any preconceived ideas of grandisment we can properly and graciousely respond. So long as we expect more than this from a legal society we still place ourselves under the power of it, in degree. It all happens internally.

The larger problem is that such societies in christendom may well call themselves a Spiritual society and thus serve to confuse and even convince their group of this. A little leaven leavens the whole lump, Jesus said. At this point there is no longer a safe haven in many numbers.

It says; the old leaven must be purged out (for it has no place in a Spiritual society), parenthesis mine.

We are either standing in the premise of the Spirit of Grace or we're standing in the permise of law. At the biblical Galatia the church of Jesus had fallen from the premise of Grace, back to the premise of law and the apostle says to them. I think I have labored in vain with you, you have fallen from grace. Grace at this level is a premise in which men and women stand and operate!

Holdeman readers;

For the Holdeman Mennonite readers there is something that should be added to the above pieces.

Once a group has fallen from the premise of Grace to the premise of law/letter for righteousness does not mean that the Spirit of the Lord stops working among those. The actual premise of operation and righteousness is no longer that of the Spirit of Grace once this premise has occured. God hates mixture, He says.

What it does mean is that the whole group falls backward to a lukewarm condition. The old leaven has leavened the whole lump now for it has been embraced, rather than rejected and purged out.

There may not be a clear memory of Spiritual Fire if the thing has persisted for too long! Concerning personal Faith, many doubts will surface. Concerning mastery; it will be extremely hard to keep one's eye upon Jesus only because to have two masters [one of Spirit and one of law/letter for righteousness] disfuses the intensity that could be experienced! Concerning Spiritual unity; it will be difficult to first find and then retain the unity of the Spirit because the sustitute for this is the spirit of unity in the things of the letter. This dead thing anchors itself if and when the believer is mastered by the law or letter for his righteousness.

There remains one thing to do; repent of all righteousness of law or letter and fully embrace the righteousness of the Spirit of Grace! There is a [force of righteousness] which the New Covenant scriptures speak of and it is that of Spirit! He within the believer is our righteousness! "Christ in us the hope of Glory"! His Grace is sufficiant for the believer! "For we await the [righteousness] that comes by Faith". We do not self-apply a [righteousness] to our lives for that is always of the letter and therefore of the religious self. This self must be denied to follow Christ with great intensity! "That I might be found in Him having no righteousness of my own which is of the law". He is altogether glorious!

It is doubtful if a word of Doug's above post can be understood by the die-hard Holdeman. If it could be understood, they would no longer be a Holdeman, because they would then be aware of what a spiritually weak life they are living every day.

The law is nothing but a schoolmaster to bring people to true faith in Christ. It was never intended to be the backbone of any faith or religion. It's a lot like maturity and common-sense. Early in life, those things are pounded into us by various rules and authorities, but ultimately those rules have to become part of our being and character. If they don't, it will be a bumpy ride.

The Holdeman propensity to add law upon law (the Conference Reports are ample evidence of this) is evidence that the concept of true faith without legalism is not generally understood among them. The H system promotes an ever greater reliance on the letter of the law and the leadership of the "elders".

If 8th grade graduation was the highlight of your life.

If roast beef is the only thing you've ever had for Sunday dinner.

If Christian Endeavor is the ONLY concert you've attended.

If your Mom and sisters never bought a dress.

If you disabled the camera on your cell phone but downloaded AC/DC for a ringtone.

If the first thing you ask when introduced is, "are you related to the Toews(Friesen) family that used to live in Greenland (Rosenort)?"

If you know "council meeting" means "members meeting" NOT city or town council, etc.

Fred you amaze me! What you write about the h and THEN tell the submissive wive to follow her husband into that RELIGION! Her husband won't protect her by what is told on the forum. Me thinks you need to re-THINK your thinking on your advice sometimes. calledoutPTL



Called out, The holdmean religion is simply that, a man made religion, and completely powerless to affect the enlightened. I believe in "common sense" "council of spiritual people", bible study, and in the God given authority of family.

If you want to know what God wants, you have to take all of those principles and go to the closet and reconcile them with the fear of God. Sometimes a spiritual man/woman will be drawn into a "fight" for no other reason than that the Holy Ghost is using him/her to suffer for Christ sake to show the love of God and win souls that would otherwise be lost in the holdeman shuffle (or any other stronghold for that matter).

This is why we are to "count it all joy"!

I am simply not afraid of the holde-terror, but I have friends and loved ones who divine truth, not with common sense, not with council from worthy and trusted councilors, not from authority or bible reading, but from known workings of conference proved "spiritual guides". No Christian will stay in there long before he is confronted with the opportunity to expose their lies, and thereby incur the wrath of the territorial demons that have a stronghold built in the lies of the doctrinal understanding of that system.


Now, if a fine Christian man or woman, has a spouse that is entrenched in that loveless, and granite stone faced legalism, the chances are extremely good, that he or she will never get them out of there unless they see the true love of God suffering for righteousness sake in their spouse.

A wise (common sense) wife has the added ammunition of being able to appeal to authority, (her husband) She can discretely explain how she simply cannot reconcile H leadership actions with the bible. This will bind the husband for the bible makes him the spiritual protector of her whole life. He is the head, and she can wisely expect him to be that. Until he sees that they are liars, the whole caboodle ought to stay in there, if she has courage of conviction to carefully stand on truth.

Brent, I guess I don't exactly get your complicated ideas out of your writing, but I am sorry I apparently misunderstood you. I thought you were basically telling the victim to tuck tale and run rather than fearlessly face the animal.

Fred;

Is a man actually a liar if he believes in what he is saying or doing? Maybe.

Men and women are lead by one of two lead-outs for lack of better wording.

Men and women may further spiritual lies without being a confirmed or pathological liar, maybe

We are lead by our sentiments or we are lead by the Spirit of the Lord Jesus! Our sentiments war against the Spirit and the Spirit wars against our sentiments. "The flesh wars the Spirit and the Spirit wars the flesh". Sentiments are of the five sense realm. When our sentiments are mixed with emotion on the religious front of our lives there is suddenly a very real problem infused into the matters of one's faith walk.

There are certain heritages in christendom; this is rather meaningless to the Spiritual mind but to the emotionally driven sentimental mind this becomes viable and important. Men and women defend what is viable and important to them.

A whole lot of this has to do with what our former conditioning is. If an adult person from beyond the ranks of a strong heritage joins himself to a strong heritage for other reasons than the heritage itself, this person will sincerely wonder what all the adue is about concerning the heritage. Since this person came to the heritage for altogether different reasons than the heritage itself, this person must finally determine whether the reasons of coming were legitimate or not.

The sentiments of heritage when driven by emotion can become the worst type of granite. Especially is this so if the thing is backed by the law or letter of truth.

The letter or the law of truths are objects of hardness. They are binding by merit of what they are. When soft human beings face such hard objects as when the law or letter is thrown toward them, someone is going to get hurt and sometimes hurt real badly. It's the stoning principle of the house of Israel. Sectarian heritages in christendom may call this tough love. Christ Jesus points out this error by writing embarrasing things in the sand concerning the accusers who anchored themselves in law or letter.

The pharisees and scribes in the time of Jesus were more honest than today's sectarian groups in christendom and simply thought of themselves as discarding the maverics among them. There was no persona of love. These were not mixing the truth of Christ Jesus with the law-principle and therefore these remained more honest at heart level. The internal mechanisms of honesty in the scribes and pharisees with atotal legal premise were not being inffused with a Truth as powerful as Christ Jesus!

Nothing encourages [internal honesty] more than when we mix the law or letter-principle with the New Covenant truth of Christ Jesus! The [lighter weight] issues come to the surface rather immediately just as wood, hay, and stubble floats on water. The law or letter upon surfacing will win along with much persona of love and humility. Let all things be done in love and humility. Some great effort is made to accomplish the letter of this, hence the personas of love and humility.

The apostle advised this; "to lay aside the hidden things of hishonesty." The christian heritages of law or letter will readily lay aside the surface things of dishonesty. These are careful not to be judged by the very law or letter they embrace. This was the syndrome at work among the scribes and pharisees.

This type of internal dishonesty nearly ruins what could be glorious groups of people and it occurs over and over again. Christendom must simply discard the handbooks wherein is written all types of guidelines to righteousness. Christ Jesus within each individual believer is our guide to Righteousness and soundness of mind in all matters! He alone within us is our Righteousness! All remaining ideas for righteousness flow from hidden dishonest places. The dishonest places in religious men work at establishing a hope of a glorious church by precepts as guides. Christ alone in the believer is the hope of this and can be the realization of this!

To those who have ears to hear let these hear; to those who can receive let these receive.

A.T. I think we must be related.

I have been exed for 37 years, but still have many H friends. What amuses me, is that no matter what you tell them in conversation, the response is "I see." This is so universal that I wonder if it is a general conference directive!

Galen I've noticed the same thing and I wonder if I was that way back when, as well.

I think they do see many many things and show a friendly agreement in that, but their conditioning overrides what they see. Conditioning is a powerful thing. Again I wonder if I was that way, not that it really matters. I wonder if you were that way Galen. Sometimes we shed things and are actually unaware of when we do it.

"I wonder if you were that way Galen."

I have thought back to my days in the H and do not remember that answer being used exclusively. It's almost a conformity issue or something, and I wonder if it emerged after the 70's purge. Perhaps the leaders of that era were using the phrase.

Galen;

You may well be correct Galen. I knew nothing of a purge except by hearsay. By what I have heard it appears to have been some sort of a legal type of purge. The new and improved version [as they might call it] is something I know nothing about experientially.

There does seem to be a moving toward the Spirit of Grace now among them from all the hard-core legalism seen in the fifties and sixties. Without more enlightenment of the glorious Gospel, a group could just as easy swing back to the lower elements once again.

If it were up to me to commend them at this point I would do so for the present swing.

I see!