Hank, if I remember right, at one time, the h Mennonites held conferences with the other branches of Mennonites. is this right? And if so, when did they stop? Thanks in advance, calledoutPTL

Another question, they use to have Bishops. why did they quit? The two I know of are; F.C. Fricke, and Tobias, A. Unruh. At least they were listed as such at the confernce council 10-31 to 11-3-1933. calledoutPTL

In the above dates, article 9. titled- Knowledge of the True Church.
Resolved that we, especially ministers and deacons, have a better knowledge of the ground of the Church of God.
Conference unamimously agreed that we supply this lack by printing tracts, translating the "Mirror of Truth" (Does anyone see what happened here? They were not the authors of the Mirror of Truth.) calledoutPTL

I think what was meant here is that by writing tracts, their Mirror of Truth gets [translated] into smaller increments so that the not so astute leaders will know what their belief is.

If I remember correctly it [was] John H. that wrote the original scripts.

My Dad a Holdeman preacher once told me that they change doctrines if needed.
He and I were speaking of their doctrine that when they water baptise and lay hands of the believer, they used to speak these words; we baptize you with water, now may God baptize you with the Holy Ghost and Fire. He said they no longer say that when baptizing with water because the assumption is that God has already baptized this one with the Holy Ghost and Fire. When commandments of men alter a living teaching and doctrine there is cause to pause.

I would pause in times like these and he would tell me that I was weak on the church.

Doug,you wrote: My Dad a Holdeman preacher once told me that they change doctrines if needed.
When they transelated the Mirror of Truth into smaller increments, did that happen? calledoutPTL

To answer your question, I don't know.

I think when other christian groups use the same language in doctrine and practice that the Holdemans use is when they will alter their things. This group is very exclusive as are some others and do not want to say or practice things in the same way that others do. For example they do not want to resemble the Amish so they will use the term avoid, rather than shun, or the term simple rather than plain, or the term [the church] rather than the term [our organization].

They do not want to resemble the Charismatics or Pentecostals so they do not like to use the terms, the baptism of Spirit or the baptism of Fire although these terms are quite biblical. They do not like to use the term [speaking in tongues as though it's legitimate] because at least some of them believe that that miracle occurred exclusively in the ears rather than in the speaking.

They do not want to resemble Free Christianity who properly believe that the entry into Christ's body the church is by Spiritual baptism, when likely there is no water present! In contrast to this they believe the entry into Christ's body the church occurs when exclusively they baptize a repentant believer with water. If we can become exclusiveness enough just maybe the evidence will be overwhelming of our being [right].

The mirror of truth is quite an exclusive book. Most of the exclusiveness is carefully weeded out in their tracts, there is plenty of time to introduce that later. On the other hand how does this teach the more uninformed leaders of their belief in exclusiveness?

HI... some responses (from my perspective) to above comments.

I am not aware of conferences H believers had with other Mennonites... other then in one of Fred's postings of conference minutes, the discussion indicated that they should confer with other Mennonites, before taking a certain position on baptism.

My grandpa was an H bishop in Manitoba, till the position(s) were abolished. I asked my dad why, and he said the reason was that younger leadership felt that too much power could be (might be) invested in one person (who, as a bishop, had charge over churches in a specific area.) However, the human condition is such that if one has an authoritative personality or is prone to seeking power, such WILL ULTIMATELY BE exercised when the opportunity presents itself. The problems committee of the 1970s is a prime example of such.

My dad was on a committee that translated the Mirror of Truth in the 1940's. He told me that when Holdeman was not understood or seemed to lean in a direction that differed from then current understanding, they translated to 1940s CGCM understanding. Dad told me that it might surprise us what JH actually wrote, if a new translation was done by a qualified impartial person, who understood 1875 German. He recommended such a new translation.

Reading the "33 Articles of Faith" and FC Fricke's statement of Faith (circa 1925) it really raises my curiosity as to what these leaders really believed about the (universal) church. I submit that CGCM 1998 publication, "Bible Doctrine & Practice" (in respect to kingdom & church) was a direct calculated attempt by "certain" H leaders to erase doubt in H laity minds as to who CGCM is, and give a theological explanation to define believers outside of CGCM. However, now we need have explanation for the change of understanding.

Change in leadership, change in understanding, change in culture/times can change direction of a church organization. It happens all the time. But the truth is that the basic gospel, faith, salvation, understanding of God does not change. Change in non-essentials may be acceptable... except if force or threat of excommunication is used to mandate such change. Believers need to remember that Individual faith has always triumphed over corporate decree and always will. It is the personal, individual, prostrate approach to God that is accepted through Jesus Christ...

They have shared some councils on non resistance issues during the war, but for the most part are extremely exclusive.

Most of the preachers have sequestered themselves to never be accountable to anyone not of their own caste.

When I was typing of JH's words, the attitude came out to me that his asking others of "the scattered tribes of Israel" to come in and give light to the truth, well that was a personality flaw of his, he was actually showing his deeply seated deceptive sarcasm, that is common to most Holdeman people. We people who have left them call it the "jello factor". They hold a deceptive systematic appearance of honesty that when closely looked at can only stand when authority (preachers) shuts the ability of the lessor (the laity)person to ask about it.

My opinion is that he really didn't want them there, but wanted to pretend they could come and have some sort of say so he could point back at the landmark and use it to to control the future.

Hank;

Did the Old Mennonites which John Holdiman came out of have an exclusive idea about themselves as God's inner-circle people, or were they more universal in their thinking about Christianity? Did the Old Mennonites believe in a water baptism for entry into Christ's body and that their's was a direct linage from the earliest time of the church? Somewhere in there is where the ambiguity may have begun about just who the early Holdemans preceived they were. The water baptism thing is a near and dear thing to the Holdemans because they believe that that is the actual entry and time frame of entry into the body of Christ.

The Eastern Conference Mennonites whom my wife and I brushed shoulders with for a couple of years were not a people over impressed with themselves. Now I'm thinking that the Eastern Conference Mennonite group was a form of the Old Mennonites and yet I do not know all the details about it.

Doug, as far as I can tell the main body of "Old Mennonites" have never held to the idea that they were the exclusive inner circle of God. There were some breakaways that believed as Holdeman, but the main body kept to the teachings of Menno Simons in this respect... that "there is no salvation outside of the church" (in other words, the existence of the Universal church). As close as they may have come to any hint of exclusiveness is that they believed that they correctly reflected the biblical NT church. But this is the view of all churches. I do not know of any church that does not believe they correctly reflect the intent and thrust of the church of Acts. And If I have it correctly, even the Amish take this theological view.

Fred, I do not think the conference minutes you quoted were sarcasm. I believe they correctly reflect the feelings/beliefs of the conference of that time. Holdeman believed in "one ORGANIZED church" and he played that belief with all that he had... however, I conclude that he gave lip service to "the universal church" and this belief was published by CGCM till at least 1951. If the early (1500 AD) Mennonites did NOT hold to the belief of the universal church... then I might as well admit that I have NO reading comprehension.

Now, here is what bothers me. I was skimming the Stoppel site a few weeks ago, and here is part of the excommunication letter they received.

"You are teaching a common two-phased Protestant view of the church: (1) that the church is the universal body of all Christian believers without an organized [denominational] manifestation on earth. (2)...Every local assembly of believers can be independent of any conference government. We believe such a view is heresy." Excommunication papers signed by Ministers of the New Plymouth, Idaho, CGCM congregation"

The Stoppel's were excommunicated for a belief that was part of earlier CGCM understanding and teaching. *

* FC Fricke, John M. Penner, 33 Articles of Faith, Menno Simons, Dirk Phillips, 1870 (?) conference minutes.

Kind of sick isn't it Hank? They were expelled for the heresy of believing the most basic of bible truths. I can't really believe the Holdies actually put those sentiments into words, it was an unguarded moment of honesty. When I read them, they lost me.

Conference at best is an unecessary evil, and certainly not ordained by scripture, except where God calls it "worshiping in the high places"

[For the Holdeman reader and others]

Knowledge of sins forgiven is one thing but Spiritual authority is quite another.

A general conference [of any group] where they determine and extract the good from the evil is a conference where the tree of knowledge of good and evil is being accessed. The serpent is teaching and speaking. How have christian people missed this?

The inner Christ leads men and women into truth individually! It's an individual love-slavory. Our brothers and sisters can help us and exhort us.

Really it's not about a belief differing so much in most of these places where an assumed authority is off and flying. It's more about seeing an attitude that counters the authority. Nearly the whole thing is about authority along with a righteousness that is self-applied. Small increments of real righteousness are mixed in at times but only to the degree that the Person of Jesus is received by Faith and is seen as one's righteousness!

I see.

The authority is an [assumed one] in these type groups or the universal born again church beyond the ranks of these would recognize the authority as real. True Spiritual authority in New Covenant terms is over sin, sickness, disease, and devils! True authority is not over the believer to lord it over or alter a believer.

The authority of the Jesus-type is predicated upon the degree we yield ourselves to Him! Until then even He has no authority in our lives. The Jesus-type authority never forces it's way upon others. His type of authority only shows up when invited!

The repentant people of the universal church recognize true authority when coming in contact with it. It's the same authority that Jesus has now extended to his Church!

Annual meeting is going on right now. There was a "celebration" service last night marking 150 years of conference. It was phoned out to different places...they went through the history of the church and how it was established. Perhaps I am skewed in my thinking, but worshipping the church more than the one true God seems to be rampant. I just can't see this church as being any more special to God than any other believing church. There were too many people sitting there feeling satisfied that they belonged to the OT. I am with Hank in what he says in his post about Menno Simon and the belief of those churches in that they didn't feel they were exclusive but they had the truth. The John Holdeman church veered off that and became more legalistic and exclusive, thereby taking too many liberties and feeling too superior. I think the Holdeman church would greatly benefit by putting the emphasis back on God and forget the church business. It makes no difference and does not make a group more spiritual to feel like they are the OTVC.

Actually the first conference was held like this. Acts 15:22-30After all Jesus wore a robe
Acts 15:22-30

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:--- Notice that there were only 4 things that a person should not do and if you keep yourselve, ye shall do well. calledoutPTL

Thanks to all who answered. But I do think that some h did go to the world wide conferences of the Mennonites. I have a copy of the book that included a list of those who went. (Unless the names were duplicated in the Mennonites, which could be easily be.) calledoutPTL

So were ALL Christians included in the non-exclusivity of the 1500 AD Mennonite? And specifically - I mean the Roman Catholic church. I can see that there may not have been the same exclusivity (is that a word?? ) - that exists inside of the many OTC's that one can choose from these days - but I believe there definitely was non-inclusive belief system that is still pervasive in many denominations today - including - from my experience - the GC Mennonite (now MC USA).

In the Fourth Mennonite World Conference proceedings - August 3-10,1948 shows 2 preacher delegates from the Church of God in Christ Mennonite being greeted by a Mennonite from France by the name of Jean Widmer. I understand that this was proabably the last one the h had with the other Mennonites. This took right after the WWII. At this time CO's were under the jurisdiction of the other Mennonites. Without them, the CO status could not have been obtained. My question is: if the Old Mennonites were so losing it (as many accuse them of) why did they continue to fellowship with the conferences for so long? A lot of things don't make sense. calledoutPTL

PTL wrote "... 1948... shows 2 preacher delegates for CGCM..."

PTL, is this a picture you saw ? I did not think of this earlier, but my step mother and first husband, Min. John I. Penner spent several years in Europe after WW II working with relocation of Mennonites (and others). Step mother (now 95) is an RN and she ran medical clinics at different places taking care of medical needs while her husband helped her and met spiritual needs of those who they helped. Mother tells some amazing stories and there certainly was (is) no hint of spiritual exclusiveness in her testimony/biography. If they were in Europe at the time of that conference, I would assume they attended it.

Min. John I. Penner was (in my understanding) a typical minister H minister of that time, as far as recognizing "faith" (John 3:16) in believers and he certainly was not aloof about his own faith. When I say "typical", I mean that at that time there would have been a cross-section of ministers, some more outgoing then others, some more legalistic and some more graceful then others, just as one would see today. However, at that time a minister was allowed personal convictions, was respected for individual ministry and did so with others. (No vows to conference at that time, as I understand).

Carol, who contributes here, is a grand-daughter of Min. John I. Penner. Bless you, Carol.

(Step) Mother wrote a book published about 3-4 years ago, "Never Under Estimate God", where she tells her life's story. I spoke to her a number of times about her writings and probed issues with her. She is a very careful writer (as a widow, she was excommunicated during 1975-81 for a number of years) and she advised me that she did not say everything she could have. I told her she needed to write another book, and I offered to hold publication till after she would be called "home". No further writing has taken place.

My friends, there is nothing more important in one's spiritual quest then to understand "faith". Faith is the same in one redeemed individual as another, regardless of cultural, social, family or church status. It can be no other way. When God redeems through Jesus Christ there is no respecter of person(s). If this is not so then God's grace cannot be trusted with confidence... and the gospel becomes murky. Mother (as well as my biological mother deceased in 1980) understands such biblical faith.

(Anything I have said above does not address convictions of how one views a biblical NT church.)

Corrected initial to John I. Penner

Hank: The Fourth Mennonite World Conference Proceedings - August 3-10,1948 (is a book) shows 2 preacher delegates from the Church of God in Christ Mennonite being greeted by a Mennonite from France by the name of Jean Widmer.---The picture was in the book about the above. I have it. I knew one of the momisters in the pictures. This conference was held at 2 places, Goshen, Indiana and North Newton, KS.The book was published in 1950. The delegates were from other countries and various other branches of Mennonites including the Church of God in Christ Mennonite. calledoutPTL