As soon as we say [a] true church or [the] true church we have already violated what ekklesia means, we have reduced the word to that of a noun. We think with [words] rather than with grunts or howls. We think with accurate words if our thoughts are clear ones. Weve been doing this now for many millennia. The Bible was written during these millennia.
Our word [church] is a mistranslation of the Greek form initially used. Tyndale was aware of this when doing his translation. Tyndale translated the Greek word [ekklesia] differently than did the king or many others since then who chose to use the word [church]. Tyndale uses the term congregation or congregations.
Our word [church] is a noun. It's used as a place or a thing and its used as organizing around precepts or ordinances. If we reduce God's workings to a noun it's easy to take ownership of it and that's what weve done. To take ownership of the [church] is a serious fault for what we call the church is His, not ours! There isn't such a thing as [my church] or [our church] or [your church] No one can take ownership here because ekklesia is a descriptive word speaking of His workings and our gathering together unto Him! Translating this compound word as a noun has created a volume of problems.
Ekklesia is both an adjective and a verb; it's a compound word. In English it requires a phrase to describe the word, ekklesia. The correct phrase to use is this: [called out and gathering together to Him]. In a certain place in the King's English the translation was accurate when it says; to the assemblies of God and to the first born.
[Unto the angel of those called out and gathering together at Ephesus] I write-- The ekklesia cannot be taken ownership of because it's not a noun, it's not a thing, it's not a place, and it is not an organization. The ekklesia is Christ's body gathering together unto His Spirit, hereby His body and His Spirit become one in the earth. Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst! That you and I may be one as I and the Father are one, words of Jesus! He, bodily was an extension of the fullness of God if we accept the bible as truth!
Ekklesia cannot be spoken of as though it's a good one or a bad one. If we speak in that frame we violate its meaning and intent. Ekklesia is not a place or a thing; again it is not a noun. Ekklesia is certainly not an assortment of precepts and ordinances. Neither does ekklesia describe an assortment of people unless these people are actually called out of darkness and are freely gathering together unto Christ Jesus! Ekklesia is the calling and the free gathering together unto Christ Jesus!
His Ekklesia are all those who are called out to gather together unto His Spirit! This is His economy in the earth! If as few as two gather together unto Him, he's in their midst! From there He multiplies! Explosions can occur. If we love His Ekklesia we love both His calling and our gathering together unto His Spirit! Let us not neglect this. Concerning His coming and our gathering together unto Him; the Spirit is united with His body as we gather together unto Him at which point He is come! By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, it says! He [actually] inhabits the praises of His people!
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 2, 2009 3:18 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 2, 2009 3:12 PM
I hate to sound like a broken record, but the words in any writing - bibles, porn, literature, should be what the writing is weighed by, not by other words thought to have a better meaning or better definition. It's not what the authors wrote. If the errors in the writings are so blatant, then it don't matter because nothing will become of the writings. But for any writing to have meaning, authority, longevity, then the actual words in any language is the canon or authority. Every translation from one language to another should begin as the original words.
A couple things to consider. Do we go repaint beautiful pictures of talented artists. Do we go rewrite beautiful stories of gifted writers? If we do we sh*t on their talents. You know a good story adds talents to whatever talents the author had already. If a good author has 3 talents in story telling, a good story might give him 3 more.
Doug, you have a writing style with traits noticeable to any close reader that seems to enhance what you believe and preach. Shall we start saying such and such words you use and how you use them don't mean what you write. Or shall we say here is a better word???
The word 'church' in the New Testament is translated from the Greek word 'ekklesia' which comes from two words 'ek' meaning 'out' and 'kaleo' meaning to 'call.' An ekklesia or 'calling out' was not just an assembly. The words agora and paneguris as well as heorte, koinon, thiasos, sunagoge and sunago can all mean an assembly. The word ekklesia was a political term, not a religious term. Jesus was the King and the Bible used the term ekklesia for a good reason. In classical Greek "ekklesia" meant "an assembly of citizens summoned by the crier, the legislative assembly."1
In Israel the legislative assembly was originally composed of the elders of each family group. By the time of Christ it had become a body of rulers exercising authority over the people of Judea. It was a body of lawmakers who exercised authority and ran the offices of government through a vast bureaucratic system.
Since, the authority of the State in Israel was originally in the hands of the elders of each family they did not usually gather together to overthrow the corruption of government since they were the government. The heads of every household were the princes of Israel, which was a government of the people, for the people and by the people, under the God of Heaven as long as they remained faithful to Him. But once the voice of the people sought a king who appointed officers over them from the top down the need for an ekklesia steadily grew.
When the Greek city states found their governments had become too corrupt and oppressive, they would call for an ekklesia, an assembly outside the civil authority of the city. If enough people came out and refused to accept the existing centralized civil authority, that government would collapse. Non participation has been a successful and peaceful means to free mankind from oppressive civil authority throughout history.
Like the walk out strikes instituted by Gandhi in hope of freeing his people from oppression of colonization, the act of calling the people out could be a very effective method of obtaining freedom through nonviolence. Gandhi did not only encourage worker strikes but also practical methods to free society from the benefits and need of the corporate and often oppressive civil state. Moses had done the same in Egypt when he taught the people how to live without the exercising authority and benefits of the Pharaoh while still maintaining a viable, cohesive and productive society.
Jesus' procession into Jerusalem was a call for the people to stand against a corrupt oppressive government by offering them a legitimate government that operated differently than despots like Herod the Great. John the Baptist had preached the kingdom of heaven at hand,2 which was nothing less than a government operating by freewill offerings,3 voluntary charitable participation4 and the perfect law of liberty.5 Jesus preached the same method of self government and proclaimed that right for all who would remain faithful to him. It was a powerful and non violent movement of the people, by the people, and for the people to change the course of history by changing the hearts and minds of men by altering their relationship with governments like the gentiles who exercised authority.6
The use of the word Church was a poor choice in place of the Greek ekklesia but what men often mean unto evil God turns to good. That word Church has its origin in the meaning of lordship which may be accurate from a certain point of view.
The ekklesia or Church was founded and established by Jesus Christ, Yahshua, almost 2000 years ago. It was a government established by the anointed King and appointed to look after His Kingdom.
Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Jesus was recognized by the existing world government, Pontius Pilate, who nailed his official recognition of Christ's kingdom to the cross. Jesus and His little flock of followers, the called out [ekklesia], were persecuted by the apostate church of that day who abandoned the house of David proclaiming they had no king but Caesar. At Pentecost thousands of Jews and others were baptized into that government by the appointed followers of the proclaimed and recognized king. All who became members of that kingdom of Heaven were cast out7 of the existing system of benefits through the Corban of the Pharisees and began to live a new life according to the precepts of God's government, by faith hope and charity and the perfect law of liberty.
Thanks Doug for your post. I am taking Brent's advice and weighing your post by the words you use to expound on the subject and not by other words which may have had a better meaning. I don't know of a better way then you have put it.
Here is where I have to check myself. I tend to want to down-play the "assembling together" because of reminders of past overemphasis of it. How does one balance one's personal faith with responsibility to the physical assembly ?
As to an original painting; that's exactly what [in my opinion] we need to see before evaluating it. A print easily mis-conveys things of an original.
And yes I do believe that the Truth of all matters bubbles to the surface given sufficient duration and handling. There is a problem however and it's this; if a person or group of people insist that their truth is accurate and full prior to becoming serious scholars rather than simply studious, this is where men and women get bogged down in a whole lot of half truths while calling these things, full and accurate truths. A serious and sincere scholar understands that what he or she comes to in scholarly ways is still the theory of truth. Judge Judy says this; if it doesn't work it isn't true.
If dogmatism is strong among us in our partial truths one will find no need to re-examine things in a scholarly way. This is a realm of things that all of us do well to be aware of. This is true in science, it's true in the arts, and it's true in searching out intrinsic and life-changing truths! We're learning the truth in all these pursuits. Jesus said that nothing will remain hidden and that all things will be laid bare as we near the ending of this age. We're in an age of information as never before.
To the very best of my ability I make all effort to see the original painting [before] determining a thing, not after. I have no ambition to have a pre-existent position and then try to make a translation of some kind fit that. I understand that this can be misbelieved on it's face. However if that is how I am perceived then my history on matters is not known. It doesn't matter to me what the real Truth of things is, but I love the truth when I see it!
I greatly enjoy an original painting, it speaks for itself!
I also happen to believe the original scriptures were true and accurate! Why? [That is another subject which I would be glad to enter into sometime]. Those who doubt the scriptures as being authentic, well, a completely different dialogue then comes up. We simply point out evidence, we can never prove the scriptures to be true. It requires a whole lot of faith to believe many things in science as well, but we continue to point out the evidence.
The William Tyndale translation from the Greek scriptures, [many of you will know this] is what the King of England basically copied from in his translation [with approximately 10 percent changes being made] most of which appear to be taking literary license rather than remaining scholarly but that could be argued.
Hank; That balance seems to come together when we actually gather together unto Christ Jesus, rather than thinking of it as merely going to the church house, or when casually meeting another believer on the street, or meeting a believer at the favorite fishing hole. Our coming together can be unto Christ Jesus! Do all that you do as doing it unto Him.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 5, 2009 8:12 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 4, 2009 12:13 PM
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