From the obituary of Mr. Sigafoose:

"In the recent past there seemed to be a softening of his heart and spirit. We trust him into the hands of a just and merciful God."

Seriously, what is the point of including that statement? I have seen that numerous times over the years.

I am guessing that it is code for: "Well, you know, he was ex'ed and divorced and remarried and he never actually did come back to the church, but he probably wanted to and if he had a bit more time he would have come back our way, and we really don't want to condemn him to hell, but still, we have to pass our judgement on him".

You got it Steven,

I didn't want to comment since I posted the obit. It seemed totally classless to me. Was amazed that that sentence was included for the public newspapers.

>>It seemed totally classless to me. Was amazed that that sentence was included for the public newspapers.< <br>
Absolutely classless. But why include it AT ALL in the first place?

I agree Steven. Should have better explained my comment. The obit appears to me to have been written for the MOT. Its been a big deal ever since I can remember to draw a distinction about each persons church status in that periodical. While I think making the distinction is classless in every case it is more distasteful to put that out in the general public who have no way of understanding the nuances of H society. Must sound really strange to them.

No worries, Mark. I kind of figured that's what you meant, but just wanted to make sure.

I think it's more like this.
Those of us who knew him, knew that he lived much of his life away from God. So immediately there is the worry and question in our minds, "did he die saved or unsaved??" The writers put those carefully worded words in there as a comfort to those of us who were worried about his salvation.

Maybe this is some of what my obit will say.

"Sirius joined a peculiar, cult like church as an innocent teenager and then left that church when he became a man. In time, he found true peace and lived out the rest of his days enjoying that peace."

"Those of us who knew him, knew that he lived much of his life away from God"

What does this mean? How is this judgment made? By whom?

Sophia, it is hard to understand, isn't it? If the person isn't a member at the time of death, they are assumed lost. I think it's pretty arrogant to assume someone lived their life away from God just because they aren't a "member". Who are we to pass that judgment; ESPECIALLY if we don't know them. And why is it...so often we don't take the time..or want to..get to know a person on a completely friendly basis before we pass judgement?
H members HAVE to start leaving the agenda out of their conditions to love someone. Someone coming at you with a preconceived opinion about your spiritual status is not an attraction to their way of life.

On a little different note...I was talking with a friend the other day who mentioned that some of their friends say when they look at Holdemans they see a confused people. What vibes are being put out?

Religion is an interesting subject...any religion comes with an agenda and rules and form which make for more criticism of anyone who doesn't think like they do...therefore, a person with no religion often tends to be more kind, open and tolerant of different understandings of the Word. I'm beginning to wonder if any religion is much good...why does God hate it? Religious beliefs are a great way to get distracted from the truly important things and allows the devil to have a great time keeping people busily running about watching each other for a wrong move.

Mmm...looking back over my post it seems disjointed...my apologies. Maybe after some sleep I'll get more brain...just some things I've been thinking about...

Cupcake (or foamhead?? - don't think I've ever had beer with cupcakes! ) - we haven't 'met' but I have enjoyed reading your posts on the forum.

My questions were, admittedly, rhetorical - as I know well the judgment that comes with not being a member and the assumptions that drive the thinking that automatically means life is being lived 'away from God'. As somebody who fully admits that I spent 9 years+ living 'away from God' by MY choice (not God's - for I don't believe that HE ever forsakes us or stops pursuing us - EVER) - I totally understand that there are times when even as Christians we make that choice and live apart from God. But I think that is 100% between us and God. I'm hammering on this theme - and I know it! My accountability is to God - not to anybody who might be reading my obituary - even if I shared on my deathbed that my heart had been hard - but had lately softened to God's Will. I have always abhorred the practice of passing judgment on somebody via their obituary. It's barbaric. Arrogant is another good word for it.

I also recognize that it is impossible for any otc to leave their prejudice or agenda aside. It would undo the otc entirely if that were to occur. 'non-judgmental' otc is rather oxymoronic!

As for what vibes are being put out by Holdemans - I would say that the vibes are as varied as the members. I have many relatives still members of the Holdeman church and even within families the vibes can be very different. I wouldn't be able to say that I see the church as a whole 'confused'. I know some members who are very conflicted between God's will vs. church will - I know many members who will back the church to their death as being the otc - and as I told my grandparents (grandpa was a minister) when I was still a teenager - I believe there are many who are going to be QUITE surprised to find out that people are showing up in heaven they would have never expected to see there! If a Christian tells me that they are following God's will for them in their life - then what church they are a member of is not an issue for me. I believe our time is much better spent sharing the Good News with those who are without hope than judging those who have heard God. To think we can better judge (than God) a man's soul's condition goes beyond arrogance, in my mind. It is trying to take the place of God - and I would dare not do so in front of the burning bush or in the presence of God - so I try to remember that I am ALWAYS in the presence of God.

Your comments about religion - do those include religions that are not Christian? Or are you speaking of religion from a philosophical point and seeing Holdeman as a different 'religion' than other denominations?

As for getting more brain via sleep - if that works for you - would you PLEASE email me with the secret??

"I think it's more like this.
Those of us who knew him, knew that he lived much of his life away from God. So immediately there is the worry and question in our minds, "did he die saved or unsaved??" The writers put those carefully worded words in there as a comfort to those of us who were worried about his salvation."

Ah yes! Here's the official holdeman interpretation of those words, "We trust him into the hands of a just and merciful God." (Just a little aside here--Thank God they finally have to let go their authority over souls and let God have the control!! Methinks the soul has a more fair judgment finally!)

But anyway, I was wondering if they ever use those words in a obit of someone that never belonged to their church? Or is it totally reserved for someone who did the unpardonable and LEFT the church, and then was so DECEIVED as to think they could be saved without going back there?(tic) Those words are a dire warning to anyone who even thinks about questioning the church! That is, you better be careful or you won't have the blessing of the church when you die. It's definitely code for he/she was expelled and we can't/won't say salvation was a possibility. As for it being classless, perhaps they goofed up a bit by publishing that in a "worldly" place. I think they watch that quite carefully, so that "worldlings" don't see their classless side!

Tim being a cousin we went to the funeral. Just got back a few moments ago.

The background here was this; the night before the funeral at the funeral home A Baptist preacher had the floor who had along with others been getting together with Tim for some years now to read the Word and prayer times. This Baptist fellow gave an overwhelming and first hand account of the testimony of God's Spirit in Tim's life for these past years. The Mennonite speaker who addressed us at the funeral obviously gave that testimony some crediblility. The Mennonite speaker was there at the funeral home the night before and had listened to the discourse.

Sitting there I received mixed signals about what he was saying. One of which was this, do not think if you find yourself in this condition that we can give you a full endorsement for heaven at your funeral. We might have a small problem in how to advise God in the matter. There were other signals; It seemed that face must be saved among the people there in acccordance with the idea that we are the real people of God. It was a tight rope walk of sorts. One thing that was not so present at this funeral was that little or no [smugness] was evident and that was almost refreshing.

It may have been rather classless thing but it did not come across that way in any serious way. What did come across was that the man was between a rock and a hard place because of existing issues. I saw a man struggling to pick and choose his words so as not to offend anyone and yet it was quite clear to some of us that our kinfolk might hear the same type things if our funeral were to be in this same building. The man who actually had the message later seemed much more comfortable about things.

We saw many friends and kinfolk, that was a good thing. That little seven year old boy of Tim's could hardly leave the grave sight. It was aweful. Pray hard for this little one!

"In the recent past there seemed to be a softening of his heart and spirit. We trust him into the hands of a just and merciful God"

Why was this line included at all? It sticks out of the obit like a sore thumb.

Joe;

I really think what was being said was this; we did not approve of Tim but possibly God with more mercy, more love, and more understanding will. I believe it was the same speaker who said that it is much better [for us] when [we have the assurance] of a person's salvation. I am sure that they do not have the assurance of my salvation either, that type thing is up to the individual believer to have!

Nothing was said in any way of Tim's heart-felt profession of Christ! The problem I was having was not so much in what was said but what was not being said about Tim. A person's honest and heartfelt profession of Christ is meaningless to them unless corporately they first judge it and approve of it.

I can see why they did not have an assurance of Tim's salvation since salvation to them is closely connected to membership in their group and an approval by them [corporately]. Remember an individual was speaking and inherently this speaker was scared to say any real positive thing about Tim. They're scared of one another, [they have admitted this to me], no one wants to get off to the side somewhere. That's where we are you know.

I see it as just another issue of their [collective and assumed authority]which seems to be the very heart-beat of the organization. The whole discourse was really more about them as a people than it was about Tim. I didn't pick up that they were aware of this. Possibly in a secretive way they were aware of this and were thinking that that is the proper way to be. Furthermore I doubt that real out-siders were noticing what I was seeing. What was said was fairly polished. On the positive side, good things were said such as; if God does not calm the storm he can calm us etc.

Joe, from where the free Christian stands the statement you mention is not of any importance, I agree. It was not spoken for the free christian.

That little seven year old boy of Tim's could hardly leave the grave sight. It was awful.

Doug, I found this sentence to be one that probably put a human slant on this story more than anything else that was said. Not knowing anything at all about the diseased, I remained relatively untouched about this story until I read this sentence. My heart goes out to the boy.

I am very thankful that it is a merciful God who makes the decision and does the Judgeing. I know that I am not worthy but I do have a promise that Belief and Faithfulness will be rewarded.