Just wondering. And I'm not being sarcastic - even though it is my default tone! It seemed pre-election that this forum was split with at least some pro-Obama voters (or at least lobbyists for those who attempt to sway opinion but don't vote). I'll admit that I have not kept up with the news regularly - as I find most news depressing at best - so what have I missed that has been a positive move that reflects change occurring? He's 5% through his 4 year term - has he met 5% of his stated goals/objectives? Is change occurring that is helping the average American? And if he was a CEO - would he fire himself or give himself a bonus?
Didn't hear all of his speech to the Turkish parliament but he said some positive things which needed to be heard... not that Bush did not say the same things.
"America is not at war against Islam...."
I believe it is important that we define our goals and humbly work with others to achieve them, and I think this is what Obama looks to do.
Even if Obama's goals for the USA are too far left for the nation as a whole I believe he is unable to move us too far in that direction. And I'm sure all of us have some different opinions about the details of such change and how they should or should not occur.
One thing sure, our taxes are going to increase. However, I am reminded several years ago I discussed tax planning with my brother Hugh, whose business arena is the world. His quick off the cuff remark was... rather put your efforts into commerce and pay your taxes. The USA tax structure/rates is one of the best in the world and don't complain about it.
oops; I just noted that the title is "to Obama supporters". I support our government but I am not a member of any political party, nor do I try to change the government. I think I do however, try to positively influence my community.
I am not an American.
But I am huge Obama supporter.
My friends say I am obsessed with him.
I think thats a bit of an over statement.
But I do watch and read every thing I can about him.
What has he done for me lately?
Hope and trust in a US president again.
I guess they arent all just about war.
What has he done for the US lately?
Kind of like spring cleaning.
Rake the leaves, mow the lawn and wash the car.
And have the neighbors over for tea.
What has he done for the world lately?
Opened there eyes to the possibility that
The US may be a friend, not just the overbearing
Bossy big brother who knows it all.
As I think I pointed out some time ago, the danger was, and is, that expectations of Obama were/are too high.
As far as accomplishing his goals go, I don't think that it's realistic to expect that in the first 5% of his term in office that he will have achieved 5% of his goals. Heck, even Dubya took longer than that to f*** things up, and cleaning up messes is usually more difficult and time-consuming than creating them.
If in a year or two no significant changes have occurred, then I think it's fair to hold him accountable. That said, the economic situation is largely beyond the control of any politician at this point - if the economy recovers, most of it will have little to do with Obama, and the same goes if it does not recover.
But, the fact that the USA finally has a president whose name is not a swear word in most countries around the world (as well as within the USA itself) is a huge first step in fixing the mess. Hell, that alone might be worth more than achieving 5% of his goals in the first 5% of his first term.
Steven said "I don't think that it's realistic to expect that in the first 5% of his term in office that he will have achieved 5% of his goals."
On the other hand, presidents need to accomplish a lot during the honeymoon while they still have political capital to spend. I would think he will make things happen a lot slower after his socialist agenda is more apparent. He does, however, have a healthy party majority which will help him continue his moves.
I fear we won't recognize the USA when he gets done with it.
>>I fear we won't recognize the USA when he gets done with it.<
<br>
I certainly hope you are right. After eight years of the debacle known as Bush/Cheney, the USA is in desperate need of an extreme makeover!
Yes Steven, Cheney in particular, did a lot to make the USA a byword in the Muslim world, but a new direction just for the sake of a new direction isn't necessarily good. For instance, if you are driving on a highway with a cliff on one side and a deep river on the other, neither are a good direction to go. Turning around is the only good option. I fear we are going from the road over the cliff when we need to turn around instead.
Wow - NO Obama voters? Hank - why do you not vote?
To the Canadians - I do appreciate your info from the 'neighbor/world' view. Glad to hear that his presence has assisted in changing a negative viewpoint. Curious - what was the opinion in Canada at the end of Clinton's 8 years?
Galen - I like your analogy of the dangerous road - I may have to steal that at some point! It's easy for me to like analogies that agree with my political idealogy though - I admit that!!
Knowing Hank quite well - I would say that he is about as Holdeman as you are Catholic, Steve.
Jeff - I didn't phrase my question quite right. I wasn't looking for an opinion on Clinton himself - but on an opinion from outside the US OF America post-Clinton... Glad you found your $400 well spent though! He is a charismatic man, for sure. Don't look for more compliments than that from me on him though!! hehehe
Obama has exposed himself as a big government socialist-leftie. He has practically nationalized the big banks (at the same time protecting the bad apples that inhabit them) as well as GM and Chrysler, he's got his silly "special relationship" with Gordon (New World Order) Brown. I won't even go into waht an incredible Narcissist the man is (my god, an ipod full of his own speeches for the queen?). Someday this country is going to quit electing Ivy league lawyers to office and bring a straight shooter real middle American to office.
"Someday this country is going to quit electing Ivy league lawyers to office and bring a straight shooter real middle American to office."
Based on the path we are on, I doubt there is time before the second coming for a political leader such as you describe. Here is a statistic I got the other day from a professor in Florida... If this assessment is even close, we might as well kiss hope for any real recovery of this nation.
Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the Presidential election:
Number of States won by:
Democrats: 19 Republicans: 29
Square miles of land won by:
Democrats: 580,000 Republicans: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by:
Democrats: 127 million Republicans: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
Democrats: 13.2 Republicans: 2.1
Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Republicans won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country.
Democrat territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."
Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.
If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegals and they vote, then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.
Sophia, I haven't had time to respond on this forum, but yes, I voted for Obama. So far I haven't been sorry. There is much to like about what he has done so far, and a few things to be wary about.
I also wanted to respond to your science post about the Denver Natural History trip.
Do we think that an end-of-the-age coming of Christ will somehow force onto a world a different and better government? That's the problem that developes in the idea that Christ will rule this earth from the old Jerusalem instead of from the New Jerusalem. Do we believe that God at anytime will force things on people that is not of their choosing? If we choose Grace, Grace is available. If we choose to come by way of fire, fire is available. What type of God do we serve? Is there a shadow of turning in Him? Is there variableness in Him? Let us not create God in our image.
This may be off the subject some but we ought to study it in light of world events.
First of all do we believe this nation is out of God's sovereign control? I admonish those believers who entertain these type thoughts. God raises up and He sets down Kings. Because of the excesses of capitalism that we've witnessed why would not a larger mind than ours allow some socialism to balance it out? I know that we can continue to demonize socialism if that is what we want to do. Maybe we do need about four years of Obama. I hate to say that in one respect but the thing is larger than I. Obama is scary at some levels but the path of Bush was also frightening. This thing is larger than either of those men.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 8, 2009 8:36 AM
And, the statistic that matters the most in a democracy...
Popular vote in numbers:
Obama - 69,492,376
McCain - 59,946,378
So. Obama got nearly 10,000,000 more votes than McCain.
For all you folks that wax eloquent on the need to bring democracy to Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. - You have a democracy (well actually, it's a republic and I won't go into the nuances that differentiate between the two) and Obama won. You've got him for the next four years. Like it or not.
I see I sent a wrong message about voting. I do vote. What I was saying is that I do not campaign... I vote for the best person as far as I can figure out. I dislike people trying to forcefully convince me, I think newspaper editorials taking political positions is somewhat an insult to peoples intelligence. The media is a community service to bring news and events and not a public forum to peddle politics... unless they clearly make their intentions known. I also do not think much of politicians hyping crowds and saying "we will win". Its ridicules presumption ! It is not hype that makes a better life for us, but solid, clear, honest efficient government.
I disagree with those who do not vote for religious reasons... it is their right to not vote, but I believe they misunderstand who we are in our communities. Spiritually, we are not of this world, our spiritual allegiance is to Christ but we still live in the community, are a part of it and should have interest in its well-being. If one says that voting obligates one to military service then there are a hundred other things that obligate us to the same. The Bible says believers are the salt of the earth; that is to flavor our communities. We aught to care about our surroundings and vote for good representation... but not insult others about our (supposed) superior views.
"Do we think that an end-of-the-age coming of Christ will somehow force onto a world a different and better government? "
Doug, the Bible says in Revelation 21 that there will be a "new" earth (vs.1) and that there will be a "new" Jerusalem (vs.10). It also says that there will be no lies and nothing that defiles in it. (vss.8,27) It also says GOD will tabernacle (live) with us and be our GOD. (vs.3) To me, Rev. 21:4 is one of the most hopeful verses in the whole Bible. I use it often at the bedside of those who are sick and/or dying.
Based on that description, I would say yes, there will be a better government, but not on this earth, the NEW earth. This one's gonna burn.
Twice in the reference you mention, the New Jerusalem is referred to as the Bride of the Lamb. The Bride of Christ is the temple of God! The Father and the Son are within this temple as it's light. The tree of Life is in this city! The river of Life is in this city! The throne of God is in this city! Jesus said; if a man will obey my words, I and the Father will come and make our abode with him! It is from the temple of this city called the New Jerusalem that Christ will enjoy the rule of the earth, the new one of course! A New Covenant, A New Jerusalem. Christ in us is [the] hope of glory for all! This was hidden from the old prophets but now revealed to those of the New Covenant!
My real point is this; it is widely accepted in christian circles that Christ Jesus will descend on a huge white horse, jumping off He will split the Mt. of Olives in two with his physical heal and then walk on over to the downtown temple in old Jerusalem and from there He will rule the world. I believe this creates a world view contrary to the real truth that will occur. This old Jerusalem idea has infilterated [at least in fragment portions] high ranking circles of those who aspire to government and a world view emerges that alters how we should view the state of Israel. The old Jerusalem is type and shadow of the New Jerusalem but not the essence of it.
In my opinion this is a large portion of how our policies have gotten off course in the mid-east and thus we bring upon ourselves great problems. Our addiction to their oil hasn't helped us stay clear of their turmoil either. Some say that this is the larger problem but I'm not so sure.
Should we be an ally of Israel? Sure at some level much as we are an ally with England or Germany. But we ought to get out of the troublesome mid-east other than that and for the sake of evangelism or we will continue to get caught in the cross-fires of Ishmael and Isaac. It's not up to us to force democracy upon any people and certainly not in the mid-east. That is not our struggle. Ron Paul apparently sees this.
The Israel who is accepting their Messiah at heart level is alive and a part of the New Jerusalem! In prophecy; those who rejected Him [the Jews] will freely drink of the water of life from the fullness of the gentiles. God by covenant is bringing the Jews a latter day chance at their Messiah! He is actively doing this as we speak! According to surveys more Jews in Israel have received their Messiah at heart level since 1988 than in all the years prior to this since the out-pouring of the Spirit of the Messiah at Pentecost!
I didn't mean to get that long.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 8, 2009 10:38 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 8, 2009 10:28 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 8, 2009 10:26 AM
Hank - thanks for clarifying! I totally agree with you on editorials. In fact, I refuse to subscribe to - or pick up and buy a copy of our local paper because of editorials that were downright inflaming - and this was back to late Clinton/early Bush days. Fact was regularly misrepresented for our area and editorials had moved from the editorial page to the front page as 'news'. - and I believe in putting my money where my mouth/faith is (or not putting my $$ as the case may be).
Glad you vote! Those I was referring to as lobbyists was a tongue in cheek reference to those who espouse a lot of political opinion without using their vote.
Steve - your numbers make total sense - and while I am wary of what Obama is doing - and not doing - I respect him as our President and truly hope that he can move us in a positive direction as that would be best for ALL Americans. I will also regularly exercise my freedom of speech if necessary! I hope that I can do so without the nasty type of bashing that our last President took. He won twice.
Until/unless we find a viable third party - it is likely that there will always be roughly 1/2 the people happy and 1/2 the people unhappy in this great country.
Stan - thanks - and I'll check back for your comments! I'm off to garden in the truly spring weather some more!
What party ticket would you like to run on? You might go a long way. Well, try your local state senate seat first. You saw how fast Palin came to the surface.
Sophia, are you some kin to Ken Wiggers? Ken and I were in service in the same unit. Ken and I have been talking some lately, he and his wife plan to come stay a few days in our mountain cabin this fall. If you're who I think you are do you think we'll have some good times? It seems that I asked you something like this once before.
Doug - lol on running on a ticket! I'm quite opinionated - but have no interest in being part of the political system - thanks but no thanks! To answer your question though - there isn't one party that I can totally agree with their platform. I certainly am closest to Republican - though I prefer to just refer to myself as 'conservative' - but I am 'off' on enough issues with the party that I wouldn't want to put myself in a position to be pressured to always 'go Republican'.
Ken is my father - my one and only! I happen to think that my parents are great company - so I'm betting you'll enjoy yourself if I'm a decent judge of character! I'm old enough now to recognize how much I gained/learned from my parents - and still do. Is Doug your 'real' name? And no - you don't HAVE to answer that if you're incognito here!
Back to this whole Obama thing..had an old farmer around here say that the best thing the White House could do.. would be to put a couple common sense, basic farmers in there and they would throw out all the cheating, lying politicians..and instead of the last stupid stimulus plan? They would have paid that money out to the American people instead of going to companies that use it god knows where. Each American adult would have gotten 265,000K. THAT would have gotten the economy going oh yeah!! We would have bought houses and vehicles and paid for the houses we aleady have and the economy would pick up!
Doug related to Barkmans ? My wife is a Barkman. Her grandfather was J.J Barkman from Linden, Alta (farmer, mortician, merchant & transport co.) ., and her dad was Abe. Any relationship here ?
It seems that my Dad used to speak of Abe Barkman. I think the Barkmans who had Dueck blood in them were my kin. We had kinfolk in Alberta which I never met. Dueck was later changed to Dyck to Americanize it.
What I was referring to yesterday were actually the Lowens rather than the Barkmans, my apology to Sophia.
Doug - Grandpa was Jake H. - son of Cornelius (C.G.) and his first wife, Susie. C.G. married Susie's sister - who also died - and then remarried and a couple more kids. All related!
I chuckled at the 'close cousin' comment. In this culture - one has to include the 'degree' of cousinship - as probably 90% of us all are related somehow! Causes some eyebrow raising in the general population when I note that my husband and I are distant cousins. hehehe
What in the world does [true confession] have to do with the Obama supporter thread?
Hey, just too few to pick from in a group that began with four people in 1859. And since it's absolutely wrong to pick from beyond the ranks it gets down right embarrassing. My older three children are my 4th cousins.
They don't like to hear that so whatever you do, please don't tell them.
President Obama was elected by state elections, not a national election. There is no national election for president, only multiple state elections occurring on the same day. Because we have a democratic republic the popular vote holds little weight unless the majority is strong enough to reinforce legitimacy (in his case it does not). As for electoral votes, I think that his legitimacy is quite clear. However, for those who do not understand the electoral college, a simple majority may be all that is needed to legitimize the President. The reason the President is not elected in true democratic fashion, by popular vote, is primarily to protect the rights of the minority. When the nation was founded, direct popular votes were out of the question because of voting restrictions and the logistics nightmare. The system has not changed because of the founders' intent indicated in the Federalist Papers.
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It seemed pre-election that this forum was split with at least some pro-Obama voters (or at least lobbyists for those who attempt to sway opinion but don't vote). I'll admit that I have not kept up with the news regularly - as I find most news depressing at best - so what have I missed that has been a positive move that reflects change occurring? He's 5% through his 4 year term - has he met 5% of his stated goals/objectives? Is change occurring that is helping the average American? And if he was a CEO - would he fire himself or give himself a bonus?
