< On the one hand, your mind wants evidence for everything. On the other hand, your heart tells you to just believe.>>>
Once you decide to "just believe", and ostensibly, to "just believe" what you do not have evidence for, then how does one decide (do you use your mind) just what you are willing to believe even though the evidence is lacking?
Clearly (to me), God is a big boy. He can provide the evidence, and He should. It would be unspeakable cruelty to the human race for God to demand a faith for which there is no evidence, because there are millions of competing theories. We can only judge between the theories with evidence. For example, are you comfortable hanging eternal consequences on the caprice of circumstance ...well, I was born into this religion, and it seems right (of course it does!!) and so it must be true?
I don't believe ANYTHING without evidence. That is a recipe for random chaos of the human race. Evidence is the hope for mankind. Will a loving God/creation/Providental purpose, etc. provide it when necessary?
Now the term "living faith" is bandied about a lot because Christians generally think it is the other guy who has a "dead faith". So just what is a "living faith"? Does anyone even know what it is, or is it just the pejorative we stick on everyone else that we judge to be "religious"?
This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Apr 12, 2009 8:48 AM This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Apr 12, 2009 8:38 AM
....oh, I know this. Many will think their "living faith" is defined by what a special friend Jesus is to them. This is the same emotional sentimentalism which created Mel Gibson's film "The Passion of Christ". We are human. We demand evidence. If we can't get it objectively, we get it subjectively. The emotions are an inexhaustable supply of subjective evidence for our belief. We feel a warmth, an impression, and we extrapolate into the stratosphere and draw our conclusions....
The preferred fall back position of Christians, believing what they have no evidence for, is sentimental stirrings of emotion. They go to Sunday school, have a nice little discussion, shake hands with the brethren, feel a warmth, and conclude the Lord is with us. Well... I guess the Lord must be with the Pagan and Hindu also....
This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Apr 12, 2009 9:05 AM This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Apr 12, 2009 8:50 AM This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Apr 12, 2009 8:47 AM This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Apr 12, 2009 8:44 AM
Scott, I believe the below Scripture speaks of things surrounding a living faith; Scott do you believe these things happened? I am not saying faith is dead if not as earth moving as in the below Scripture, but I believe here faith was very alive;
(Acts 5:17-24) There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. 17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation, 18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison. 19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, 20 Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life. 21 And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought. 22 But when the officers came, and found them not in the prison, they returned, and told, 23 Saying, The prison truly found we shut with all safety, and the keepers standing without before the doors: but when we had opened, we found no man within. 24 Now when the high priest and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow.
Regarding evidence of a great intellegence, power, and God, simply look around and see what He made. Did you ever really think that possibly the Bible is true and this great Power and God is using this world as a proving ground to find those who of their own free choice seek good and who love others as themselves and the God who created them, and who are fit for a better world? Obviously many in their own free will are not choosing good and thus our world is evil. Obviously we can blame God for the evil in this world, yet is that wise and going to get us where we want to go? May God through Christ have mercy on us.
Scott - I think you bring a decent point to light. If there is such a thing as 'living' faith - then logic wants to have the opposite also exist - 'dead' faith. But 'dead' faith is - in my opinion - an oxymoron. And 'living' faith is saying the same thing twice in a way. Faith is a live thing. It requires us to set aside our need for absolute proof - or absolute knowledge - and instead - trust. I think that is a live thing - I certainly know my faith grows - shrinks - changes. So 'living' faith and faith are the same thing.
Life brings new experiences. It shakes some of our beliefs loose, and adds others. Certainly, a "living faith" will be a changing faith. If we are alive, surely new info is still streaming into the ear-eye gate. If your testimony goes thus: "this is my story and I'm sticking to it", then you have a dead faith. A "living faith" must be fearless, because we are all born into error (YES!) and one must overcome fear to overcome everything else.
This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Apr 13, 2009 8:19 AM
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Scott, before I read all the threads here, I was going to say a 'living' faith is a faith that grows, and therefore, changes, but you said exactly what I think in your 8:14 post.
**And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.**
TR - what does that passage mean to you? I appreciate the quoting of scripture - but only when it is personalized with what it means to the person who is quoting it. I've been privy to too many 'scripture wars' I guess! How do you see this tying in to Scott's original post?
To me, "Living Faith" would be faith that proved its value. eg. if you walk into the mall, you have faith that your car will be there when you get back. If the car is gone then your faith may die. Anchor all your faith on unreliable sources and I would classifiy it all as "dead".
Some times we find that faith has brought us to a destination but a new dimension will be needed to get us beyond. eg. death of a loved one or personal crisis.
This does not necessarily mean that the faith was miss placed. Rather it might mean that the faith didn't cover the difficulty. With time, following the crisis, we realize that our faith has been renewed and deepened. That is living faith.
There are times when we abandon ship because we lose faith. Time proves that the faith was worthwhile and we suffer the consequence of our abandonment.
What I call faith is not an emotional based feeling, as emotions swing based on physical conditions, but is substantial in that it is an eventually proven reliance.
It is also many times beyond the comprehension of our intellect.
This message has been edited by notg on Apr 13, 2009 4:01 PM
If we actually and honestly knew the truth of the legalism that is afloat in many of our christian organizations, we would indeed be free; either free to continue on in them or free from them. Such freedom can work either issue in men and women. So we allow this freedom for one another!
There are those who have the strength to live in and amongst legalism and remain free.
"Know the Truth and the Truth will make you free". Truth of itself will [not] make us free. [Knowing] the Truth sets us free from what is not true and accurate!
"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James 2:17 NKJ
I just skimmed through the book of James and here is what I see. Living faith is humble, slow to speak & swift to hear, is not partial, is merciful, helps those who are destitute, goes against your own peoples when right (Rahab), blesses God and man with our speech, does not speak evil or judge another, does not grumble, does not boast, prays for the sick... and a whole lot more....
"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sin." 5:19-20.
It looks to me like the whole book of James tells us how a living faith responds to the last verses in James, 5:19-20
The book of James is a very good to quote from concerning living Faith! It is obvious that James walked in a Faith that was alive! A Faith that lives has spontaneous works that follow! James says that I will show you my Faith by my (spontaneous) works. parenthesis mine
On the other hand it is quite impossible once I know what James says here to go about proving that I have a living Faith because I do good works. There's the original idea of James and then there's the parroting issue. James speaks of the spontaneity of living Faith while never using the word [spontaneity].
The parroting issue is the dead faith. The God who lives is internal, the God who lives is not external in the sky somewhere! He is in that heaven in inner-space or in this case within us!
Many new covenant type believers still hold that the living God is external in the skies somewhere, these reveal their old covenant roots and understanding. The old prophets thought God was external and in the heavens above us.
The vital truth of God as being internal was witheld from the old prophets but now this vital and glorious truth has been revealed to the New Covenant prophets and apostles!
Paul said it this way; Christ in you the hope of glory! This apostle also said the same thing in another way; But the righteousness which is of Faith speaks in this way, say not in your heart who shall ascend into heaven (that is to bring Christ down from above) or who shall descend into the deep (that is to bring Christ up from the dead)the Word of Faith is in your heart and in your mouth that if you will confess the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you shall be (restored) i.e. saved!
We can trade in our type of faith for His Faith! Living Faith now comes alive! A living hope now comes alive as well! A living and unconditional Love now comes alive! This same Jesus said; I must go away and then in alittle while I shall come to you, He was speaking of His glorious and Spiritual coming on the day of Pentecost. He is with us! He is Emmanuel! He is come! Indeed He shall be revealed! The end time revelation of Christ Jesus is simply that!
Living Faith carries us somewhere and it carries us into the revelation of Jesus! Jesus by faith is good but Jesus by revelation is glorious! I am not speaking of the physical Jesus I am speaking of the Christ that He is and that within myself.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 14, 2009 12:47 PM
TR - what does that passage mean to you? I appreciate the quoting of scripture - but only when it is personalized with what it means to the person who is quoting it. I've been privy to too many 'scripture wars' I guess! happy.gif How do you see this tying in to Scott's original post?
Sophia, while I am all about being practical, I also understand that "practical" and "men's wisdom" aren't necessarily the same thing. Much of what I see written here is, IMHO, the reasoning of man. For instance, some reason away hell, because such a place doesn't appear reasonable to them. Some reason away God, because His existence doesn't appear reasonable to them. I don't see any difference.
Can you try again with different words? How would you answer the questions - or make your point - to somebody who knew nothing about the bible? Let's start there maybe?
ETA:
I realize now that you weren't really responding to my questions - but were instead saying why you wouldn't respond to my questions. Why respond on a topic at all if you aren't willing to clarify what you mean or what you saw as deep meaning in the scripture you quoted? Do you just hope that somebody interprets that scripture exactly as you would and 'gets it'? What I'm still lost on is how you feel about living faith vs. dead faith. And I'm interested in knowing that - if you would share.
This message has been edited by gskoehn on Apr 14, 2009 11:05 PM
Living Faith is lived out from the heart. Let us reveal ourselves. Smoke and mirrors are no longer relevant.
Before this becomes a tea party of some kind maybe we all should really make an effort to live from our hearts rather than from our minds. Even the best minds find it hard to understand their own heart. Who can know it?
If we live from the heart and we all will know one another, whether we are good or whether we are bad. If we're bad let us act that way and if our heart is good then let us act that way. Let us live spontaneousely!
The heart can deceive us at infinate levels. It all has to do with attitudes. Who of us knows each and every attitude that keys us to think in the patterns we think in.
These attitudes may range all the way from atheism to legalism to advising God how he should run his universe.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 15, 2009 7:27 AM
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