The Hebrews of the old covenant thought that God was external in the natural heavens somewhere. Thus they could take license to reduce the commands of Life to mere precepts of law. These precepts worked death and condemnation. Everything they answered to was external in nature so far as they were concerned. The externalizing of God or Christ is the petrie dish of conception which births legalism. The petrie dish is an exterior and man-made conception place.
The recipe to experience much condemnation and fear is to first externalize God by positioning him somewhere in the natural heavens!
The Bible points us toward the Deity but the Bible never points us to itself as that deity. The worship of the Bible, it's letter and it's laws is an idolatry.
There is good-news! The refreshing New Covenant revealed that God or Christ was internal! He is quickened [in us] by belief from the heart and our confession that He is risen and alive! This quickening or new life now begins the restoration or salvation process in our lives! Just because we know where He dwells is not sufficient, we are privilaged to receive Him!
Our faith at this point is exchanged for His Living Faith; hope springs alive! We can now take hold of life eternal! That's Life with great quality!
The Christ now lives His life in and through us provided the heart has believed in a contrite and humble manner! Our emphasis now switches from a faith in a physical Jesus and His great works to the focus on the indwelling Christ! We embrace and allow His Faith and Life to manifest through us! As we do so His righteousness manifests through us!
Christ in us our hope of glory! If a man will obey me Jesus said, both I and the Father will abide in him! John ch.14.
The one whom we call God [creator of all] is in inner space and a portion of that inner space is in us! He is internal!
But the righteousness which is of Faith says this, [say not in your heart] who shall ascend into heaven to bring Christ down or who shall descend into the deep to bring Christ up from the dead but know that the Word is very close to you even in your heart and in your mouth. consider Romans 10: 6-10
First the natural and then the Spiritual, it says. There's something intrinsic in those words. If we did [not] have the gospel scenario of His life, death, burial and resurrection to preach and receive at mind and heart level, then how could anyone actually receive the Spiritual Christ who lives within us? This Christ is about [reception] at mind level first and then at heart level! It's a glorious salvation/restoration!
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 19, 2009 12:31 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 14, 2009 4:22 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 14, 2009 3:42 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 14, 2009 1:26 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 14, 2009 11:08 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 14, 2009 9:28 AM
(Rom 8:9-11) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(Jer 31:33-34) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Our emphasis now switches from a faith in a physical Jesus and His great works to the focus on the indwelling Christ!
So what am I missing. Why do we then insist on a physical return if he has already returned to indwell us mortals? If we insist on a physical return He then has no option but to leave us at some point in time to allow his return? Sounds a little convoluted.
BTW Doug I believe you are on the right trail, just push it to it's conclusion.
I think I [have] pushed it to it's conclusion when I have stated that each and every time the second appearing is mentioned it is spoken of as a revelation! [He will be seen as the revealed Word of God as He appears!] The word He will [come] is a mistranslation. The mistranslated word He will [come] or [appear] has the sound in it of a physical appearing rather than a Spiritual revelation! If you play rock you may not understand this but if you are in the Rock you may well see this!
A massive enough revelation of Him will cause this mortality to put on imortality and this corruption to put on incorruption! God will not slam-dunk us with this; mortality will put on imortality by way of our full revelation of Him! Things are actually finished as we speak! It says He abolished death but we just do not yet see this! All things are already under His feet but we do not yet see this! When we see this in power, death itself which is the last enemy will be swallowed up in victory!
By experience I have learned not to push these type things further than that. Only those who have ears to hear can hear it!
There are Rabbis in Israel who now believe that the appearing of their Messiah will be a Spiritual revelation! Amen.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 17, 2009 8:09 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 17, 2009 7:49 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 17, 2009 7:47 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 17, 2009 7:44 PM
You know I don't give a damn about theology or so called mistranslating, so you'll have to convince me another way. Everybody has their theology and can become a scholar, so I'm looking for more than that.
I don't understand why all you Christians are so adamant about not meeting Jesus.
I thought I made it clear that I was not trying to convince anyone; those who have ears to hear can hear what I wrote of.
I could say that Jesus gave up His body when He ascended and show evidence but that would not convince anyone. I could say that He is elevated to Spirit now but that would not convince anyone. I could say that to be in the confines of a human body for a short time was a humbling experience for Him, but that would not convince anyone. It was said of Him that having [found himself in human flesh] he humbled himself and became obedient unto to death even the death of the cross, but that wouldn't convince anyone either.
This is not about being afraid of meeting Him in Spirit or in the flesh, rather it's about eternal and life changing Truth!
The trouble with Christian beliefs, it's only for a few. This error is so great it's even among Christians in the form of their wide ranging theologies, different churches, enclaves, home churches, home schools, and Christians schools.
I'm looking for beliefs no one can interpret: king, bourgeoisie, peasant, beggar. Spiritual writings provides this as do our English scriptures. Education or no education, rank, status, is not a barrier to the pursuit of true life, that is a spiritual life that can withstand all tests and trials.
I didn't claim the rock stars or myself was on the right path. I only stated that some of them like a prostitute can understand these things and struggle with them, and if there's grace, a further revelation.
Really Doug, I don't care one iota for any religious beliefs. They all fail and only provide for a few people, and only temporary, and only then if the belief is never pushed, which is what churches and enclaves and separation is for - is to find a shelter for a belief so it can live and deceive awhile.
I am making an honest effort to see what you do care about and one thing I am seeing is that if this does not get beyond words then it's not for everybody! Exactly and yet it's by words that we clumsily march forward, is it not?
I see what you see when you say that beggars and prostitutes get glimpses of the Kingdom of God for this Kingdom is within all of mankind. "He lighteth every person that comes into the world with His light and with His life". John chapter one. There, I did the religious thing of making a quote. John chapter one speaks of the truth of this in theological but real terms.
In simplicity; the Kingdom of God is within us, this Kingdom suffereth violence and the violent take this Kingdom by force! It's not about the theology of this but it's about taking this Kingdom that's within us by force! Or taking ahold of Eternal Life with white knuckles!
Theology merely speaks of these things. Some things we suffer past and other things we suffer into, but we do not come into all things by suffering! The greatest of the great issues we come into by consciousely taking ahold of them by Faith and then refuse to turn loose of them. Thus the mind is able to align itself with the deeper spirit.. We are wonderfully and fearfully made!
This refers to no one in particular. Unless you entertain an exterior God or Christ what I'll say next excludes you. It's quite frustrating to move and live among men and women who entertain an exterior God or an exterior Christ once this Christ anointing has been internalized. It's frustrating but the work goes on and those who have fully internalized God get to deal with the furstrations.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 18, 2009 7:14 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 18, 2009 6:38 AM
I wasn't saying that the prostitutes and rock stars were able to get their little piece of religious light along with everyone else. They knew that long time ago. I was saying they had abandoned all that, but that alone wasn't enough to put them on the right path.
What is it that we mean when we think in terms of [withstanding] all tests and trials?
Tests and trials can be embraced as though they are fine gold and highly valuable if they are to work that good thing in us with an eternal type ring to it.
All our life-times do we withstand such things or do we embrace such things and thereby get on top of them.
With all my heart I believe that it's absolutely impossible to embrace such things and thereby get on top of them [all of them] without a baptism of the unconditional Love of God! This baptism is for everyone on the street and in the city halls of this world.
Humility is required to receive this baptism, pride and selfwill cannot access this baptism! It just so happens that the Bible calls this baptism the baptism of the Holy Ghost! "The Love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost".
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Apr 18, 2009 8:13 AM
Doug, a note to you: This is not personally against you or any other individual. I consider you a friend and have no issues with you anymore. That don't go to say that I believe what you write, so I'm always going to say it as I see it. To continue from this morning just so I'm not misunderstood - I don't want to be advocating anything I'm not saying, the rock stars and prostitutes I spoke of had a much higher understanding than any religious belief. They had not only abandoned religious beliefs {which entails theology, translations, interpretation, scholarism, commandments and doctrines}, they had overcome them. This should have been stressed. Because just to abandon religion with the help of sedition and rebellion or because in the trials of our beliefs God didn't turn out like we thought he should, is not overcoming. Overcoming is something much more higher, noble and purer. But I was also saying that this overcoming was only part of the journey, and that if one didn't continue to work up the deeper things of the heart, they wouldn't be on the right path. As for myself, I've has plenty of vision what religion is about but can I continue to build my spiritual house? This was the same thing I was saying for the rock stars and prostitutes that may have had some spiritual revelations which I have heard in some of their songs and read in some of their lives.
To recap what I'm saying, I wasn't by any means saying this drummed up safe Christian salvation was for the rock stars and prostitutes too if they would only accept it. They had been through that long ago.
A searching rock star or prostitute, or anyone for that matter, will never change into those things religious people expect them to and eventually demand them to. They will always look like "evil doers".
The religious are setting themselves up for a rude awakening. According to scriptures they're the ones going to be gnashing their teeth in the end. Because aren't they the ones in the Bible claiming all that self righteous sh*t? I can't think of a bigger let down in the world than for people to convince themselves of such a glorious reward with such blatant unproven religious lies and lottery. At least those that have experience revelation and know the profit of hard work, but couldn't continue, will stand quietly before the Lord and take what they have coming like a man or woman, which the just Lord will honor some way.
Now those of you that scorn the word or don't believe or won't accept it like it reads, don't go off and charge me unnecessarily. I didn't claim what I wrote by nothing more than according to the scriptures. I didn't claim it according to art or science or modern culture or even according to my own beliefs. I didn't even say that according to the scriptures was my belief. What I did say it would be the way I wrote ONLY according to the scriptures, nothing else.
If the scriptures fail, the world is an open market for anyones beliefs. But the scriptures might as well have failed, because there's hardly no people like the religious that believe the scripture less than they do. They wouldn't change them and translate them and find new meanings for words, if they didn't. And in the corrupt course of that, accuse God of not being able to pass down his inerrant word into all the very and various languages he himself created, for crying out loud. What a terrible thing to charge God with.
Am I the only one that can get you write without me even thinking about it?
Scott, I had a chance to read your whole post. Yeah I love the trees and rocks and mountains, and I'm especially partial to the Kansas landscape and the high plains. I also believe in world without end. And I've learned and am learning to love life.
"accuse God of not being able to pass down his inerrant word into all the very and various languages he himself created, for crying out loud. What a terrible thing to charge God with. "
Brent - there is truth there. When we accept God as our Creator - it comes with a responsibility to treat him with respect (I think the scripture often refers to it as 'fearing' God) and truly recognize His omnipotence.
Your post reminds me of something I read on Justice Clarence Thomas In the New York Times the other day. He talked about the oath he took that says, "So help me God", and that there are case that drive him to his knees to seek strength and wisdom for the right answers and courage to stand up for them.
It humbled me because here's a man of rank that turns to God for help and in that article showed great respect and belief in God. There's people with no authority on this forum that would scorn him for the things he said in that article, but that's what the proud do.
He talked about America's obsession with the Bill of Right and that shouldn't there at least be equal time for a Bill of Obligations and a Bill of Responsibilities?
He talked about how his job wasn't easy and if anything it was getting harder and how tired he got. He talked about the great speeches he listens to and the movies he watches to get some comfort.
Needless to say I saved the article. I fight the same things he fights only on a smaller stage.
Brent, do you have that article in a format you could email to me? I would like to take a look at it.
Sophia, no one believes in God's responsibility more than me, but how is He obligated to carry this out...with a perfect translation? Perfect translation from what? There is no perfect Greek manuscript. An error-free translation is the ultimate can of worms, put maybe you aren't suggesting that?
Brent; you write deep writings... and I do not understand all of it. The person who God relates to is one who on the open prairie, in the forest or on the sea, looks upward and bows his heart to God. I see you do that... as do many here.
"For He satisfies the longing soul, and fills the hungary soul with goodness... " Psalm 107:9
Brent - thanks for the info on the article - I am interested in that as well. I admit I will need to set aside some prejudice that the name 'Clarence Thomas' brings up due to the shenanigans years ago. But I can do that - I certainly have not kept up with Justice Thomas' life story and things DO change!
Scott: "Sophia, no one believes in God's responsibility more than me, but how is He obligated to carry this out...with a perfect translation? Perfect translation from what? There is no perfect Greek manuscript. An error-free translation is the ultimate can of worms, put maybe you aren't suggesting that?"
Goodness, NO! While I believe that God COULD create a perfect translation of any message he wanted to send - and on paper at that - or deliver the DVD directly to every cable company, pc and tv and weather radio (don't want any non-internet H left out! ) if He so desired - I also believe whole-heartedly that God created us intentionally with free will/choice - which means that while I believe God's Word is infallible - I believe it is infallible through each believer listening to the Holy Spirit. Which is why I'm quite convinced that not everybody will get exactly the same translation. Does that mean that there isn't a perfect translation? Hmmm - I would say that if WE were perfect - then we would perfectly understand the Holy Spirit's speaking to us in that translation - and then it would be perfect. So no - guess that means no perfect translation - and I'm back to faith and trusting that the Holy Spirit will guide me as I have asked Him to do - and that God's Grace is sufficient for even me...
That's why I just can't get hung up on fundamentalist details of what is right or wrong on things like hair - beards - dress - etc.
When I was pregnant with my children - each time - I fell in love with those babies before I ever knew what gender they were - what they would look like - whether they would have any birth defects. I fell in love with their essence with no care for that outside package. I think God is in love with us in a very similar way. The package isn't the key - our heart is what He sees. I also mourned the one baby I lost at 7 weeks even though I never 'saw' that baby. I knew that baby - then that baby was lost from me. Love Relationship with God - and with people - is at a different level than those details in my OH so humble opinion.
Brent can correct me if I'm wrong about this but I think Brent has said enough to get the rest of us to believe that all of us on this forum are the religious ones and at times He may not be so sure of himself.
Indeed we all do well to consider the idea that none of our lives are totally free of false religion. False religion is to have something down under our belts in theory form, but are still missing the Life and Love of it!
True religion is to Love God and mankind in the same strength and that is to Love unconditionally! True religion is up and about visiting and ministering Life at the appropriate levels to all who are oppressed and lonely and hungery. What ya think?
"Brent, I agree with your statement that the the religious are in for a rude awakening. But please explain one statement you made:
"I'm looking for beliefs no one can interpret.""
ATL, sure. But let me fine tune that sentence a little. I'm looking for words no one can interpret. The only trouble is they already exist in every book down to the "Mirror of Truth". It's only our agendas and belief that start digging at what was wrote. But if you want to be honest, interpret the Mirror of Truth to be a true book that honors your enemy - the Holdemans, if that should be the case.
The cat jump over the hat. Every word in that sentence has its meaning and gives it its imagery.
But how convenient it would be if everyone could make the sentence say what their beliefs are.
And how more convenient it is yet to keep every word of our enemies intact when it makes them look bad and shows them up.
"Brent can correct me if I'm wrong about this but I think Brent has said enough to get the rest of us to believe that all of us on this forum are the religious ones and at times He may not be so sure of himself."
Doug,
The religious will think that. So you're in your own hole.
"Sophia, no one believes in God's responsibility more than me, but how is He obligated to carry this out...with a perfect translation? Perfect translation from what? There is no perfect Greek manuscript. An error-free translation is the ultimate can of worms, put maybe you aren't suggesting that?"
Scott,
If you think there's a better English translation of the Bible, how could that be when the same error went into your indorsed translation as went into the KJV of the Bible, seeing there is no "perfect Greek manuscript".
And where do we get so many of our ideas and beliefs from but from the wisdom and knowledge of books. I see hidden deep in your post where you all but discount that whole area and wellspring of beliefs and ideas because none of the source of it is reliable.
Are you going to limit your horizon and world view to only the English and Spanish speaking worlds? Because according to what you wrote you can't bolster any of your beliefs except by English and Spanish authors. You won't have the foggiest idea if a French or Russia author is telling the truth in a English or Spanish translation of their work, will you?
Scott, if God has not given us a word and a language we can perfect our life and beliefs by {because we have been shown life is good, life has pleasure, that life can have restful leisure in it, and for what the soul longs for, to live forever}, I don't know what anything in life is. Because obviously there's dark forces in life that are tearing at those beautiful things and keep good things from their perfection and happiness, but that books and scriptures and observations and daily experience helps us to overcome and sure up our faith and confidence in the good life and its hope to be continued in a world without end.
I am sorry for the hurt, I certainly was not trying to hurt anyone, forgive me; but do go back and re-read the post.
I was making a far larger point than what you mention. I was actually confirming what I have seen you say about many of us being falsely religious at times; adding of course that I was including into that number that you yourself may not be so sure that you are totally free of the same. We're men here, we can take it on the chin.
Doug,
I have not been on here for several days. If I understand you correctly in your April 17 2009, 7:36 PM post...I think we may be on the same page.
Brent - I found the article on Clarence Thomas - and it was indeed interesting. Thanks again for the link on that. I just finished reading 'The Appeal' - John Grisham - who is one of my favorite contemporary novelists. The scary prospects set forth in that book about buying state level Supreme Court seats were very realistically laid out. Hearing a US Supreme Court Justice talk about Rights/Responsibilities/Obligations in the way that Judge Thomas did was comforting and helped right my world that was feeling a bit tilted on its axis after reading that book this weekend!!
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