Does anyway know if this is true? I googled this and came across this site.http://www.thepiratescove.us/2008/05/12/ny-times-once-a-muslim-always-a-muslim/ It addresses the question of if Obama was born to a muslim father, then he is always a muslim irregardless of rather or not the muslim faith is denounced. I also came across this site addressing the same http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?Itemid=199&id=515&option=com_content&task=view This site is a bit more interesting... because it talks about a legal case where a muslim woman converted to christianity and wanted the word muslim taken off of her ID card. The court said her card had to remain with the muslim word on it because of some muslim law where if someone is born a muslim than they remain a muslim irregardless of if that person chooses another faith.. and another faith includes other religions besides chrisitanity like Hinduism (which if you read all of that story it talks about a woman born muslim being sent to a rehabilitation place because she became hindu.
Just so it ties into this site...lol.. does once a Holdeman always a Holdeman prove true? Cause even if your ex'ed.. you still suffer the same laws of the Holdeman church... even if you convert to another religion
What is so scary about Muslims??
My bf is a Muslim and ive gone to the Mosque with him.
And didnt see any terrorist training going on.
Actually reminded me of H church a lot.
And to answer your question yes I think
once a Holdeman always a Holdeman.
You can leave a religion but cant leave your culture.
I think Holdemanism is much more a culture then a religion.
Jeff... how much studying have you done on the Muslim religion and Koran? I haven't done any.. but have heard some others that have become Christians and left the Muslim faith speak on the subject.. even though their status will never change on their countries statistics and ID info. Besides that..my father in law took a sidetrip into the the muslim/islamic religion and then he left that and became a christian. Also had a cousin on my hubbies side who did the same.
A couple things I have heard.. and would really like to verify if this is true or not...
1. Up until the time Mohammad went and talked to the christians, he preached and wrote about being peaceful to the Christians.
2. Mohammad wanted the christians to say that he was a prophet and he made a journey to where many of the christians were and tried to convince them that he knew about christianity. When he did this, he stated that some things about the beliefs held by christians that were wrong and the christians rejected him as prophet.
3. When the christians rejected Mohammed as a prophet, he then began his writings against christians, saying kill the infidels, etc.
4. When muslims are faced with the two different views that Mohammed had, they say that mohammed was more enlightened when he wrote the second part and so it makes the first part null and void.
5. And then.. I have heard, that most muslims believe the first part of his teachings, of being peaceful and that is what is used to promote the muslim religion.. and then as people get hooked into being a more dedicated muslim.. they begin to be orientated toward the second part of the Koran.
Anyway.. those are the things I would like to research out more.. and see if that is true.
Maple:
I dont know how to explain any more.
I said my boy friend (bf) is a Muslim.
What more do you what me to explain?
Lark:
No I have not studied it much at all.
I have several Muslim friends and we have discussed religion.
In my opinion all religions are about the same.
They all think there right and if your not part of.
There religion you are doomed.
I have no intention of joining the Muslims.
Or any other religion for that mater.
1. Up until the time Mohammad went and talked to the Christians, he preached and wrote about being peaceful to the Christians.
False. There were many Christians living in the oasis that is now called Medina, the place where institutional Islam began. Mohammad began his preaching in Mecca, but was excised for his radical monotheistic beliefs. Even after and during his years of conquest later in his life, Christians and Jews, or "people of the book", were treated better and not systematically exterminated like pagans. They were however taxed heavily, and many were persuaded to become Muslim for monetary purposes.
2. Mohammad wanted the Christians to say that he was a prophet and he made a journey to where many of the Christians were and tried to convince them that he knew about Christianity. When he did this, he stated that some things about the beliefs held by Christians that were wrong and the Christians rejected him as prophet.
This is pretty much true. You could insert "Jew" and the above statement would be just as true. Major persecution of Christians and Jews did not come from Mohammad, but from his followers. Since Mohammad left no clear heir, chaos ensued after his death. The internal bloodshed soon spread to external.
3. When the Christians rejected Mohamed as a prophet, he then began his writings against Christians, saying kill the infidels, etc.
False. See #1. His writings in the Koran are quite pro-Christian. One could interpret the hadith as having anti-Christian rhetoric in the some places, however.
4. When Muslims are faced with the two different views that Mohamed had, they say that Mohamed was more enlightened when he wrote the second part and so it makes the first part null and void.
Hmmm. There are some extremist Muslims who might say this, but I've never met one. For a Muslim to denounce any part of what Mohammad said or wrote is quite dangerous and rare.
5. And then.. I have heard, that most Muslims believe the first part of his teachings, of being peaceful and that is what is used to promote the Muslim religion.. and then as people get hooked into being a more dedicated Muslim.. they begin to be orientated toward the second part of the Koran.
False. I don't think that the Holdeman's lure people in either. This type of thinking tries to paint Islam in a conspiracy theory. I think that many people become Muslims for lack of other options, for monetary gain, and for political power, but I don't think that they are trying to lure people into a violent scheme.
Joe... Have you studied the muslim religion? If so, what was the main source you used?
Jeff... Your boyfriend was a muslim? I recently read a true story about a muslim man who came out of the closet because some extremist muslims took things into their own hands. Is homosexuality accepted in the muslim circles in Canada? If that's to personal.. I am interested in the actual answer and you can e-mail me at lark4god@yahoo.com
Lark, it was an audio book I checked from the Topeka library. It included the history of the Muslim religion, not just the begining. I remember being impressed by that fact Mohamud wanted to be accepted by the Jews and/or Christians. He didn't consider his religion exclusive from theirs, and thought they could compliment each other. I'm stetching it to recall much more.
"The Crusades Through Arab Eyes" by Amin Maalouf
"The Long War for Freedom" by Barry Rubin
"Veiled Half-Truths" selected and introduced by Judy Mabro
"Islam& the Myth of Confrontation" by Fred Halliday
"Islam and the West" by Philip K. Hitti
"Orientalism" by Edward W. Said
"Unveiling Islam" by Ergun and Emir Caner
"The Islamic Threat: Myth or Reality" by John L. Esposito
"Unholy War" by John L. Esposito
These are just a few of the many books I have read on the subject. The above books just happened to be the first I glanced at as I browsed my bookshelf as I prepared this response. A person in my profession would be unwise not to study Islam. I have studied it thoroughly, learning Arabic, getting to know multiple Muslims, (most of whom are currently back home in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, and Lebanon), taking every class at the university that had anything to do with the middle east, its governments, wars, religions, and culture, and trying to get both sides of each viewpoint.
The above mentioned books should show you that I have studied both the antagonistic and sympathetic viewpoint. If you enjoy collegiate reading as I do, I recommend that you start with Saids Orenitalism, then Maaloufs Crusades, and finish up with Unveiling Islam. These three most likely won't change your viewpoint of Muslims/Islam, but they should set your facts straight. The Caner brothers are actually Christian ministers who are currently shunned because of their renunciation of the Muslim faith.
I have little interest in choosing a side in this thread's argument/discussion, but I believe that I do know the facts of Islam, and I dislike it when people automatically latch on to the confrontation bandwagon after things like September 11.
Lark:
Accepted?
Well depends who you ask I guess. His family is ok with it.
But the official Islam religion stand would be against it.
As do most hard core red neck controlling religions.
But as in most religions younger people are much more accepting.
Of change and open to other views as we evolve and understand,
That God is not about rules and out dated traditions.
And when you have a family member or close friend who is gay
most people change there views on it also.
Lark, you might also be interested in this book that I read a few weeks ago. It has a good bibliography and the author records what Muslim leaders, past and present, as well as Muhammed, teach about their religion.
"AntiChrist Islam's Awaited Messiah" by Joel Richardson
"red neck controlling religions"? Geez Jeff, you are a gay bigot! That's kinda funny! as far as "younger" people being more accepting of your, umm, arrangement, I think it was Winston Churchill who said that if your not liberal when you are young, you have no heart and if you are not conservative when you are older, you have no brain.
Why not consult Allah's word directly revealed to Mohammad.
"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" -- Qur'an 9:30
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." -- Qur'an 9:29
"Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks. At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens." -- Qur'an 47:4
"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures." -- Qur'an 98:6 "
I am not a Muslim, and I am not sympathetic to the cause of Islam, whatever that may be. I have no desire to defend Islam, or counter the above verses of the Qur'an with other verses from the Qur'an. I started to prepare a list of countering verses, but deleted them. This is a problem that I have with the Mennonites as well. I refuse to get into a battle of Bible verses with anyone because no one ever changes their minds. Seriously, who wins? The scholar who can gather more verses? I think that the underlying theme of the entire book or religion should speak for itself.
If one were so inclined, they could pick and choose scripture from the Bible to make Christianity look like a bigoted and warlike religion. However, I think that the majority of readers here on the forum would quickly see through such a collection of verses. Because the majority of Westerners do not care to examine the original documents thoroughly or perhaps simply because it takes too much time, people become content with accepting bits and pieces of truth and fiction that others extract. Said's "Oreintalism", addresses this concept. This book has changed the study of the Middle East and its culture, religion, and people more than any other publication. I believe that it was published in 1976 if memory serves.
Muslims worldwide have suffered from the actions of a few radicals on September 11, 2001. Of course, there were and still are others who support their cause. I believe that these are the minority. Christians today denounce the actions of the crusaders when they study the crusades in detail. If a group of Christians were to carry out the actions of the mainstream Christians of the Crusades, the majority of todays Christians would denounce them. (I am assuming that you all realize that the faith-based motive Crusades was merely a cover for financial/economic gain.) Muslims worldwide dread the connotation that has been attached to their religion in the last decade.
I believe that Mohammad was a delusional outcast, who suffered from seizures. I do not believe that he had any kind of revelation. I dont think that Joseph Smith did either. Lets give the Mormans another 1000 years and see whos religion is taking over the world then! Who knows?
Dont jump on a bandwagon of belief just because you Googled "Islam vs. Christianity"! For those of you who automatically hold an innate mistrust of anyone who is not a Christian by your standards, shame on you. I am not advocating that you support or endorse other religions, but take some time to understand them. It wont take away your faith- if you have any! Studying that which is different from yourself helps you to understand why you have chosen the faith that you have.
Joe: You can choose to remain ignorant of the personality of the person who is claimed by Muslims to be the perfect example of virtue. You really need to explain your insight in the context of how followers of Mohammad can embrace western values and continue to claim that he is the example of perfect moral virtue. I am aware of the "good" verses in the Koran but what good are they if they are overwhelmed by the horrific character who supposedly wrote them. [Islam as far I would argue is really based on a diverse collection of traditions and Mohammad was only one element. I do not believe that he in fact dictated the Koran]
When considering the crusades bare in mind that Arabs pillaged and plundered most of what was the Roman empire. They invaded Spain and where finnally stopped at the Battle of Tours near Paris.
What remained of the western Roman empire was essentially its hinterland, Europe.
The eastern Roman Empire was continually under attack from Muslim forces and the first Crusades where a direct result of a direct request from the Byzantium Emperor for aid.
Joe: A little project for you. Compare the persons of Christ and Mohammad. Which one reflects your concept of moral virtue?
Mohammad the virtuous man:
started his career as a prophet by raiding and plundering caravans
had poets killed for ridiculing him
had sex with whomever he pleased including slaves
condoned slavery
married and had sex with a 9 year old
used violence and conquest as legitimate means of spreading the "truth"
Joe the list goes on and on.It maybe that you can see potential for change in Islam but it's central character will somehow have to be deleted. Maybe you have some suggestions how that could be achieved.
On the other hand Islam has proven overtime to be an excellent survival strategy. From an evolutionary point of view it has been rather successful.Why argue with success.
As an aside, I must say I rather envy Mohammad's sex life.
BAGHDAD Widespread violence is down across Baghdad, but not for one minority group.
Iraqs gay population is being targeted by militia groups in a wave of killings that has claimed the lives of up to 25 young men and boys in the past month.
"They know I am gay. I dont know if I am going to be killed, this is up to God," said Moyad, a 38-year-old Baghdad resident who would not give his last name out of fear for his safety.
Visibly frightened, he said that he has many friends who have been sadistically tortured, some even murdered. "They are sticking glue up their anuses; some hospitals refuse to treat them. Is it a war waged against homosexuals?" he asked.
This of course has nothing to do with Islam; right?
Joe - excellent posts. I agree that faith is only strengthened by knowledge. I also believe it is the only way that we can truly share our faith with others. Don't most mission-training centers train their missionaries to first learn everything they can of the culture that they are being inserted into - including language - custom - religion - before attempting conversion? Of course I also believe that nobody but God converts - and thus I have an issue with much of the missionary work that is carried out in an attempt to convert people who already have hope and faith in their own religion. How many people without hope do we walk past in order to make somebody already full of hope and faith become 'just like us'?
Alf - did slavery have anything to do with Christianity? Most - if not all - slave owners in America were Christians. Your logic holds little water.
in general - I am saddened by American's bigotry and hatred when every single blasted one of us - unless you carry some native American blood - came from a foreign country and foreign customs and many of us - non-Christian religion base or at minimum gasp Roman Catholic great great great great grandparents - and while I am all for LEGAL immigration - I am also for prosecution of bigotry in this country. I'm regularly amazed at the hatred I see displayed on this site against others who are 'different'. This is in the name of God? And yes - if I don't practice what I 'preach' - I hope that my fellow Christians will call me on that.
Sophia--What logic? Is it not logical to follow the example of the most venerated person of a religion? Or did I miss something? Mohammad condoned raiding,plundering, taking booty and the capture of slaves. Slaves were either sold or put to personal use. Women were, at Mohammad consent readily used as a sex slaves. After one battle against a Jewish village all the captured men were massacred and buried in the villages market place. Mohammad screwed the wife of the killed Jewish leader that night. These are the kind of stories you will find in Islams Holy scripts. Imagine Jesus being that kind of person. Or don't you see any difference.
KORAN commands to kill infidels:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43
If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8
You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71
Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74
Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89
Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65
It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67
Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5
Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73
Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....
As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15
Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60
Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.
Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5
Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25
Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29
Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51
Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)
A new fatwa published in Egypt determines that the source of all the existing pigs in the world is Jews, who were cursed by Allah. The new edict was issued by Sheikh Ali Osman from the Egyptian Waqf ministry.
Due to their Jewish roots, Sheikh Osman says, it is permissible to slaughter all the pigs. The religious scholar was quoted as saying by a Jordanian newspaper that he personally believes the source of the pigs is Jews and thus the consumption of pork meat is banned in Islam. "
Some more ignorance with its roots in the holy Koran. Note that this person has an official government position.
On a lighter note; should my son-in-law and myself give up our hog hunt in the Ga. swamps later this spring?
Ignor me!
How can any religion fall into such a deep swamp as we've been hearing about?
I appreciate how some are studying this thing out. Or are any and all religious spirits as evil as this and most get white-washed just a little down through the years?
This message has been edited by doug-64 on May 11, 2009 12:11 PM
Doug: I prefer to use such information to help me understand the human condition. the question I like to ask is; what does this tell me about the "human potential". Where did we come from with our ideas and eventually where are we going.
Since Islam was so influenced by Christianity and Judaism I wonder if the roots of antisemitism in Islam don't reflect the beginning of antisemitism in the early christian church.
The hadiths are in some ways the equal of the Bibles gospels. They are written by Mohammad's companions, and are meant to display him in all his virtue.
Note:"Source: Bukhari, vol. 4, no. 2934; Muslim, vol. 3, nos. 4422, 4424; Ibn Ishaq, p. 308 / 458. Bukhari and Muslim are reliable collectors and editors of the hadith (words and deeds of Muhammad outside of the Quran). These three passages from the hadith depict Muhammad calling on Allah for revenge on this poet."
If you ever wondered why the name "Muslim"; Muslim wrote one of the hadiths.
Jesus told the pharisees this; you sit in the seat of Moses!
This was true for many men and women in the house of Israel, particularly in the latter part of the old covenant once the law was added. Men added the law. Men created the law from something beautiful. The living God gave ten Life-giving commands but the meanness of spirit in the house of Israel reduced these commands to death dealing laws.
Precepts of law do something in the human being that is contrary to good and contrary to God. Once binding precepts become one's guide, immediately these same precepts become one's god in practical terms. The whole thing now gets leavened with an evil now that is contrary to all that God is.
The god of law is a non-god. The god of law works [overtly or covertly] to destroy at the drop of a hat if threatened or challenged. Men, women, children get destroyed if perceived to threaten the law.
Jesus was perceived as an enemy of the law and those who had the god of law firmly settled in them must find a way to crucify Him. The same type thing happened to the apostles. It was not what is generally considerd to be the world who worked this this carnage.
When the Spirit of Grace alone is proclaimed the law must find a way to rid itself of those apostles. Paul once said this; while I preach the truth to you, you call me a deceiver.
The god of law [must] call the Spirit of Grace a deceiver and even an infidel, for the Spirit of Grace does indeed supercede the law in quality and for all intents and purposes this Spirit becomes the arch-enemy of those of the law.
God has not changed, mankind's revelation of Him has changed. In Christ Jesus we see the face and glory of God! The law are the back-sides of God hence God is always moving off and away from anything of law! Moses saw the backsides of God while hid, but the face and glory of God gave Moses ten Life-giving commands. We can come out of hiding into the brilliant light of Christ Jesus!
The New Covenant works an altogether different format and consciousness than the covenant contaminated with the old leaven. The New Covenant says to purge out the old leaven, or to purge out the old god if it were to be said in clearer tones.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on May 13, 2009 6:19 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on May 13, 2009 5:55 AM
"Imagine Jesus slaughtering every man, woman, child, and ox like God commanded in the OT. Oh, God changed, I forgot for a moment."
According to scriptures, there's a time to kill and a time not to kill.
And according to my own observation and experience {because everyday I notice something a little different on the path, which then I must redefine what I already know to make things right again}, I haven't seen where the laws and rules are the same for each successive generation when the culture and environment are different, and for sure not for the different ages where that changes so vastly.
"'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hadhaifa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i. e. the daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Salim has attained (purbety) [sic] as men attain, and he understands what they understand, and he enters our house freely, I, however, perceive that something (rankles) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to her: Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the rankling) which Abu Hudhaifa feels in his heart will disappear. She returned and said: So I suckled him, and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa disappeared. (Sahih Muslim 3425)"
One of those wonderful quotes from the Hadith. this one compiled by Muslim, the person from whom Muslims take their "Muslim" name. Hadiths are the equivalent of the gospel writers in the bible.
This will somehow make the man a foster child thereby making him sexually non threatening.
Why do Muslims hate the Jews? could it have something to do with their Holy Books?
HADITH Sahih Bukhari [4:52:176] Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "
Mohammad liked to have his critics killed. He is my kind of man. I think I possess his blood lust but not his courage.
HADITH Sahih Muslim [19:4436] It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:
Who will kill Ka'b b. Ashraf? He has maligned Allah, the Exalted, and His Messenger. Muhammad b. Maslama said: Messenger of Allah, do you wish that I should kill him? He said: Yes. He said: Permit me to talk (to him in the way I deem fit). He said: Talk (as you like). So, Muhammad b. Maslama came to Ka'b and talked to him, referred to the old friendship between them and said: This man (i. e. the Holy Prophet) has made up his mind to collect charity (from us) and this has put us to a great hardship. When be heard this, Ka'b said: By God, you will be put to more trouble by him. Muhammad b. Maslama said: No doubt, now we have become his followers and we do not like to forsake him until we see what turn his affairs will take. I want that you should give me a loan. He said: What will you mortgage? He said: What do you want? He said: Pledge me your women. He said: You are the most handsome of the Arabs; should we pledge our women to you? He said: Pledge me your children. He said: The son of one of us may abuse us saying that he was pledged for two wasqs of dates, but we can pledge you (cur) weapons. He said: All right. Then Muhammad b. Maslama promised that he would come to him with Harith, Abu 'Abs b. Jabr and Abbad b. Bishr. So they came and called upon him at night. He came down to them. Sufyan says that all the narrators except 'Amr have stated that his wife said: I hear a voice which sounds like the voice of murder. He said: It is only Muhammad b. Maslama and his foster-brother, Abu Na'ila. When a gentleman is called at night even it to be pierced with a spear, he should respond to the call. Muhammad said to his companions: As he comes down, I will extend my hands towards his head and when I hold him fast, you should do your job. So when he came down and he was holding his cloak under his arm, they said to him: We sense from you a very fine smell. He said: Yes, I have with me a mistress who is the most scented of the women of Arabia. He said: Allow me to smell (the scent on your head). He said: Yes, you may smell. So he caught it and smelt. Then he said: Allow me to do so (once again). He then held his head fast and said to his companions: Do your job. And they killed him
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