Our daughter is to be expelled Friday evening...She is 15..
Now the ministers are suggesting that we send her away from our home to a home where there are two H parents. My husband agrees. If she goes, I will leave also...
I just got out of the hospital on Thursday. Stress related chest pains and also inflamation around the heart and lungs and fluid around the heart and lungs.
I am so angry right now...
Just want prayers so I don't totally lose it...

Don't let them break up your family.

She is your daughter and if you don't want her to leave your home/be taken from your home, as far as I know, there is no way they can legally do it, unless she is being abused (which I assume she is not and at that point it's for the child protection authorities to do it, anyway, not the Holdepreachers). And, as far as abuse goes, given past happenings in Holdeland that are starting to come to light, I'd be extremely reluctant to allow any child of mine to live with a Holdeman family.

If they persist, talk to a lawyer.

Just my two cents' worth.

I agree with Steven. Your daughter is a minor. No one can ask her to leave your home unless there are laws being broken. Tell the ministers to put that on hold, at least for now. Apparently you are having some serious health issues that are likley related to this issue and that needs everyone's attention first. Religious issues are not worth losing a life over.

The heart problems you are describing sounds like congestive heart failure, which can usually be reversed if you know what to do. Email me.

Excuse me while we get some facts straight here
#1 no minor should be questioned without parents present whether they are H or not.
#2 no minors case should be brought before the church without parents because that is also illegal
#3 It is my understanding coming straight from the Horse's mouth if you want, that all the H staff is presently on Repentance since annual meeting. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that alone, make it so that no church matters such as expelling, reaccepting, weddings, funerals can be conducted by any of the H staff until that is lifted?

Ah this should prove real interesting. Along with the fact that no child who is exed should be put into an H home where they are going to be shunned, doing much further damage to their already extremely fragile teenage emotions.

take your child and run as fast as you can and if you really want an H place, there is a minister down the road from here that specialises in dealing with fragile damaged people without exing them.

Not to derail this thread, but could you explain this, LL?

>>that all the H staff is presently on Repentance since annual meeting< <br>
Is this conference-wide, uuhhm, I mean cult-wide, or just a particular congregation?

It is my understanding that the whole group as a unit voted to put themselves on repentance at annual meeting. I would understand that to mean all ministers in the conference from what I have been told and heard over an H pulpit.

To the parent,

I certainly don't know any of the circumstances surrounding your family. I do want to let you know that you are loved. Our Father loves you, your daughter and your husband. My wife would love to speak with you, to help you find solutions and counsel. You may contact her at her email kristine.koehn@comcast.net.

When the ministers wnated our daughter to go before the panel, I told them not without us being present. My husband said no she wasn't going. (We were expelled.) I called them up and told them what my husband said. He said, "I guess we can if we want to. I told him, " She is a minor, so no you won't." He backed up right away. (Later on it was said that I threatened the law on them. Anyhow,IF you decide to leave, take your daughter with you. She is your daughter and your her mother. You and her father are responsible for her, no one else. calledoutPTL

Last week, the deacon's wife called and invited us for Sunday lunch... I told her my husband doesn't do the separate table thing, so we wouldn't come. Then she wondered if just our children and I would come? !!! I told her no, that would be a little weird, thank you and bu bye.

This Holdeman idea of treating the couple like they are separate entities according to church status is profoundly skewed.

I told her no, that would be a little weird, thank you and bu bye.



http://www.entertonement.com/clips/51345/Buh-bye

>>This Holdeman idea of treating the couple like they are separate entities according to church status is profoundly skewed.< <br>
No doubt. It also falls under what I would consider to be attempting to 'put asunder that which God has joined together'. Not that the Holdemans actually make a practise of following our Lord's teachings...

It's hard to stomach this attempt to break up a family. All the time we were among the Nationwides and Charity groups they were carrying on a whispering campaign behind my wife and my backs, urging our children to leave the family and live with "true Christian" families, that as divorced and remarried we had no authority as "real Christians". I discovered they only tolerated my wife and myself so that they could get to the children. You folks should stand your ground as a family and then find a new church.

<<< This Holdeman idea of treating the couple like they are separate entities according to church status is profoundly skewed. >>>

The heart becomes hardened by constant exposure to sin. I'm speaking practically here and not religiously. Every marriage has wounds. No partner is perfect. So...there is hardly a greater sin against a family than to subject the husband and wife to circumstances which plant the seeds of infection in these wounds which erodes the love, fosters competition between husband and wife, encourages disloyalty of one partner against another, and eventually can lead to outright hostility and hate. But, because of how emasculated H people are, and there fear of torment in hell, they seldom act on their miserable marriages, but generally just tough it out.

I understand this thing very well. I understand it far better than the H themselves do. The H do not wish to destroy a marriage, but then again, neither is it typical for a man having an affair with a married woman to wish to destroy her marriage. Rather, what is common between the H Church and a man having an affair with a married woman is that he has put the satisfaction of his needs at a higher value than the integrity of a family. To say this is selfish does not quite do it justice.

So no, the H Church does not wish to destroy a marriage, but after the needs of the Church are met in terms of loyalty, submission, obedience, reverence, etc. etc., the crumbs left over for the expelled spouse are so paltry as to be a criminal accusation against the very definition of what marriage was meant to be and could be.

The most an expelled spouse can ever hope for with a staunch Church member is to just hang in there and tough it out, but the temptation to have a roving eye, always looking for a partner that will believe in and have confidence in you is overwhelming. To live with an H member is to live with a person that does not believe in you, in other words, it is the stake to the very heart. It is much more damaging in the long-run than a temporary physical infidelity.

But the H have done this for so long, and their conscience so hardened, and their confidence so great in their evil work, that (like cupcake pointed out), the are able to sin against a marriage in near innocence, but really, is this possible? Are they innocent? I suppose only God really knows their culpability.

Scott I think you have really put that into a true perspective. In addition, I would like to also add the side of the the part where there is a subtle, not sure if I can put into words what I am thinking here, But it seems to me that there is a kind of mental gymnastics that would plant a seed of distrust so that when ever someone does something that would be ,in my mind, somewhat questionable, that would make them also less trustworthy and give justification to the lack of respect or whatever that keeps us together as a couple. I see that kind of thing as one of the main things that causes many of the split couples that there are presently there. the Longer I am out of the constant judgmental kind of thinking pattern, the easier it seems to me, to be able to see it. When the main focus of conversation is no longer, who is doing what, why are they doing it, are they being a detriment to our society standing in the world around us............ that kind of finger pointing seems to disappear. I can honestly say it has been very difficult for me to leave the H and there have been some hard things to handle because of it especially in relationship with my H children.
But I would not trade in any way what it has done for me as a person in my relationship with Christ, with other people, How I relate to them now, and especially the difference in our marriage. We are working together as a couple in ways that we never have, with tools that we were never given before.
But I will say this, I see some H reaching out and seeking out tools and information that is changing their lives also and If the powers that be will allow God to keep working among them, I honestly think we will eventually see a difference that is great. If they decide to quench it in that manner of man that they are prone to, I truly fear for them. It is just as one that I have some confidence in told me the other day. They need to recognise that we are fighting a war with Satan and we need to keep that in the forefront.
We need to fight Satan and the Sin, not beat up the sinner. That very context is what I see causing the most horrific damage. It is beating up struggling people and not helping them to find hope.

If a spouse is expelled (what a ridiculous vulgar term), then if the wife has confidence in the Church (also stupid), then this judgment the Church has for the expelled one is carried over into the spouse who is a member.

A man is supposed to cherish his wife, protect her, care for her, lay his life down for her. Men simply do not do this for a woman who stands in judgment against them and has no confidence in them. Now some H wives who are smarter refuse to do this because they know it will kill their marriage, but then they are living a double life, and their membership is a lie or their marriage is a lie because the Church is against their husband and they have to take sides. The entire setup makes Satan's breath as sweet as mint mouthwash in comparison. If a man is expelled, a wife has to fight against the natural spirit of judgment of the Church to not kill her marriage. The Holdeman Church never helps a marriage, but if a husband or wife is really smart and strong, they can in some degree reduce the damage to their marriage caused by the Church spirit of rejection. What a testimony for a Church! I am forced to question either the intelligence, or the integrity (perhaps both) of anyone who is a member AND IS AT PEACE. I can imagine being a member because it is the human condition to be weak and/or confused, but I was a member, my sleep would be troubled indeed!

P.S. I usually speak in terms of the husband expelled because that is the case 95% of the time, but I do realize that sometimes, the wife is the one who smells a rat and leaves, and then she is forced to deal with an incredibly stupid, brainwashed husband who worships the Church, stand with the Church in judgement against her, and refuses to protect her spiritually and emotionally from other men....MY GOD all this is horrifying, and yet, the potlucks seem peaceful enough!!! The entire system has distilled down into a totally disfunctional apparatus which somehow, found a way for the multiplicity of disfunction to all dovetail and sort of half way work for most of them.

Scott;

Which school did you attend and study at? You ought to offer your services to a church seminary where legalism is held high as the way of God. Your resume is good.

When a particular law is seen as doing damage, if there is any love at all in the mix another law will go into effect if there is one available to retify the initial death dealing law. So long as it's friendly this is done until there are simply no more laws to offer.

This type religious system finally admits there is simply no way to get there from here once their law is broken and then depleted, especially when it comes to something as human and soft as marriage and family! This is how poorly the law governs others when dealing in human affairs!

Binding precepts or laws are hard objects while humans are soft objects that were not made in a way for hard objects to govern them. The law was made for humanity, not visa-versa.

For example, Moses broke his own law when he gave a writing of divorcement to extremely troubled marriages. When was Moses more the man of God, when he was in the strict keeping with his law or when he over-rode the law because of his mercy? I do not hear Moses whimpering at such times that I fear I will lose the whole thing if I recant on a law. Mercy alone stems the flow of smugness that is found in the law.

The real issue here is [denial] and then the worship of what one is denying. The deception is full blown at this juncture. Moses did [not] deny that he worked from the premise of law while there are christian systems that deny they have laws and yet continue to govern by binding precepts.

Legal systems at the [secular level] have a place to fill; that's their legitimate place to fill on a God created planet.