Something to consider. Often when error is seen in a person, the tendency is to further paint such an individual with a brush that does not properly reflect his/her life and ideals. Perhaps John Holdeman's exclusive views cover up some of his better points of belief.

I wish to put forward the probability (fact ?) that John Holdeman had a thorough biblical understanding of "Justification by faith". His early experience in life brought him to a place to where he experienced and truly felt the forgiveness of God on his life; and in this respect, his motives for teaching were pure. As a basis for this, I will quote from his chapter on "Justification" in the Mirror of Truth. This is not to say that JH had everything right, but I believe he did understand justification by faith." Consider though, that the English translation as below does not always do justice to the German in which language Holdeman usually wrote. I am in the process of having the German language edition checked on a number of subjects.

MOT, page 196

"... All offerings to God without a pure motive are void before Him.

In the Gospel age we have the same; all commandments and regulations have their power only when observed with a right motive. There are people who build too much upon works and yet profess that one is saved by grace without merit of works. They see their salvation too much in the external regulations as in baptism, the Lord's supper, the washing of feet, etc. If one has the right understanding of the basis of justification, one first seeks to come to an inner foundation upon which the external of God are based. There are many professing Christians, like the Jews, who seek to be made righteous by works as those who believe that the new birth is obtained through baptism. Such persons are in need of eye salve to rightly understand the free work of grace. The Jews fell because of this false conception. Had they understood the right principle of justification they would not have trusted in the law as a means of their righteousness. If they would have understood that Abraham, the father of all believers was not righteous through works but through faith in the promise of God, Paul would not have had the occasion to express himself as follows: "

"What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness which is of faith, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore ? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law... " Romans 9:30-32

This is the reason they stumbled at the stone of stumbling and the Rock offence and that they did not believe on the Son of God and His offering. Thus it is today those who build upon works speak much thereof and little or nothing of the most precious basis for the justification by faith: and they are offended when we teach that justification is possible only by grace and through faith without the addition of works. They are concerned lest they lose their idol of self-righteousness. When the Spirit of God freely teaches the mystery of the plan of salvation, and proclaims the forgiveness of sins as of free grace, the spirit of the law is offended and seeks to tie this declaration of freedom and justification to the regulation of baptism, as if God had tied the glorious gift in the offering of His Son to the element of water... Every spirit who is offended when one teaches justification through faith without being baptized is the spirit of the law..."

Whether Johnny had a 'correct' understanding of JBF or not, is largely a moot point. The fact still remains that he set himself up as the sole guardian and possessor of the OTVC 'candlestick' and believed all other 'professing' Christian churches to be a 'displeasure' to God. As well, he believed that he and the clergy he ordained were the only ones able to perform valid baptisms or administer communion.

Hank, why do you try so desperately to defend the organization (and its founder) that has cast you and thousands of others over to Satan, believes that you are going to hell, has put you and your wife and thousands of others through extreme emotional and spiritual pain, routinely covers up cases of abuse (in its various forms) in order to maintain its public image, drives apart marriages and families, and generally fits every definition of a cult?

WHAAAAATTTT? JBF and OTVC are utterly irreconcilable...

Oh, by the way, if JH understood JBF as you say, then his culpability is increased instead of diminished.

Hank;

I carefully read the post. It is obvious that Mr. Holdemen believed in justification by faith as a true doctrine. The Holdeman people still do believe this as a doctrine.

I'm sure that you will agree that the doctrine of this is fine; however to have a sound doctrine and then go about adding things to perform by in order to seek the approval of God, destroys the [reason] for the same doctrine.

The fact that Mr. Holdeman for most part was negative in how others were wrong about this, speaks to the smugness that is still so prevelant among the Holdeman people. This is precisely the problem that they take to themselves.

The claim is that they are [right and Godly] in matters to the exclusion of others being right or Godly. The annabaptist error from time immemorial has been one of [being right] in their own eyes as opposed to others being [wrong]. This error is distainful. This error produces a cetain religious smugness and has brought persecution their way at different times.

One can be accurate, made righteousness, and live holy and never think in terms of being [right] in one's own eyes.

One can love the truths of God without egotistically embracing the same truths.

The historical element of this shows up even now and it seems to stick to the annabaptists like the white on rice! Some groups of this extract do not display this [rightness] in their own eyes as strong as do others. There must be some sort of dark religious spirit that gets hosted by the element of being [right].

The Christian's walk can simply be the issue of being made righteous by Faith through Grace!

Whatever the thing is, the thing is distastful and an obnoxious thing to encounter, once you're free in Christ!

Those who desire to be [right] rather than simply forgiven and free, might even want to join themselves with the annabaptists or any other group who esteem themselves to be right in their own eyes.

Those who walk by Grace and Faith whose righteous works are spontaneous in nature, these have no claim of being [right] but rather and simply a claim of being forgiven and free in Christ!

I have interest in the history of CGCM and how it relates to 1880, when JH came to Manitoba and split my people, the Kleine Gemeinde (now the EMC). I do not have time today, but will try to go further into this from a historical perspective. There are some interesting issues, that favor JH. But I will also have something to say of American preacher influence on later Canadian church life.

Also, I do not think we need to address culpability, but rather pin-point where Holdeman errors are. I am not trying to down-play or sidestep blatant hurtful actions on their part. The Holdemans are a "people" and they will survive as do the Amish, the Huttarian Brethren and other ethnic/social groups.

That history will be interesting, Hank. It is amazing what has occurred among the varied sects of annabaptists.

If we were to know the times we're approaching we would understand that not any of those groups mention will survive much longer [as they are]. The Holdemans are fast changing. Some of it is good change and some of it is coming to judgment.

Out of every tribe and nation God will bring forth those who will gather together unto the inner Christ! A denomination is both a tribe and a nation. It all changes as He comes to be glorified in the saints to judge the world of unrighteousness!

In the next 25 to 50 years we shall see some awesome and great changes in Christendom!

I was just wondering what [justification] means to those who add standards and righteous precepts to the Spirit of Grace in order to be approved of God.

For those who struggle with this word and the idea of justification, consider this. Justified by God in simple terms means to be approved by God!

The true New Covenant believer does good things and good works because he or she is born of God's Spirit. Never does this one do good things to be approved of God. That type error has been around for thousands of years. It has to do with personal shame!

Approval by God occurs by Grace through Faith!

Hank, why do you try so desperately to defend the organization (and its founder)



That's simple, Hank wishes he was back in the Holdeman church. One day, possibly right before he draws his last breath, he'll finally go back home to holdi-land.

When Hank says his bedtime prayer it goes something like this.

Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray John Holdeman my soul to keep.
If I should die, and be put in a box made of birch,
Please, make sure my funeral is in a Holdi-church.

Yup, Hank's going to join the other weak minded ones like RM. He's going to go back and do what RM has to do every communion whether he wants to or not, nuzzle the muzzle of other men.

>>That's simple, Hank wishes he was back in the Holdeman church. One day, possibly right before he draws his last breath, he'll finally go back home to holdi-land.< <br>

>>Yup, Hank's going to join the other weak minded ones like RM. He's going to go back and do what RM has to do every communion whether he wants to or not, nuzzle the muzzle of other men.< <br>

Sirius: You are both a poet and a prophet.

You do have to wonder how RM is holding out these days. Do you think he has perfected the art of the BD&P (brief, dry and pursed) holdy kiss yet? How's the ol' man-on-man lip action workin' for you there RM? Be strong.

Forum manager; not sure what the rules are of who controls contents of a thread. If allowed, I request that the prior two posts be removed from this thread as they have no relevance to the subject at hand.

If not allowed, I will not continue this discussion on this thread.

Hank

Hank;

Ignor those who frolic around, I want to hear those histories.

I think everyone knows that you would already be with your past people if that is what you wanted. Your internal faith is much different than what those who frolic around suggest. The justification by faith issue is what you are very clear on and your past people speak of it but do not walk it out clearly.

The forum manager must do an almost un-American thing to delete such folicing it seems to me. Then I might be totally wrong about this.

Most of the threads get derailed in some way on this forum; I suppose it's up the original post-person to place it back on the rails if there's more to be shared.

Doug, anyone can say anything they want about me and its water off my back. However, I will not tolerate someone else being mocked on my thread as they are mocking RM. These guys are intolerant, obnoxious and plain stupid.

I believe in unconditional love , but I also believe in tough love.

I am extremely busy this week... I am having difficulty finding the quote I am looking for by current EMC historian, who make a positive comment about Holdeman's approach to salvation, vs the KG's view in the 1880s. Today, the EMC fit on with other evangelical churches and have a good biblical view of baptism, the Lord's supper and the church.

Hanks points out what JH taught and what the Holdeman people say they believe , when I sit down with any of my Holdeman Friends and relatives, they are very quick to point out that this is the basis of there belief.
Unfortunately there practice of making this and there belief conditional upon the approval of the Ministry more or less mitigates the reality and meaning of what Justification by Faith really means,
My opinion is that JH taught and believed this, but his ego was so big that this attitude "being self right", the very basis of the Human problem takes away what he was teaching, History has shown us many examples of how this Human power has abused the hearts, soul and bodies of many.

This has been the reason for the death of people both spiritually & physically, it comes from Secular leaders like Hitler or Church leaders of all faiths, The problems in the world today by Fundamentalism of all creeds and races brings the spirit of being free to a grinding halt,
I liked a quote by Abraham Lincoln that address the heart of what happens when we allow this attitude of being SELF RIGHT impose there view on the masses, JH taught beliefs that planted the seeds of DESPOTISM

Qoute

Our defence is in the preservation of the spirit which
Prizes liberty as a heritage of all men, in all lands,
Everywhere. Destroy this spirit and you have planted the
Seeds of despotism around your own doors.

--Abraham Lincoln

The Following is the dictionary Interpretation of Despotism
despotism .
Rule by or as if by a despot; absolute power or authority.
The actions of a despot; tyranny.
A government or political system in which the ruler exercises absolute power: Kerensky has a place in history, of a brief interlude between despotisms (William Safire).
A state so ruled.

Hank:

Settle down. You see, Sirius and I have a 'concern' for one of our former forum brethren.

We know that the holdy-kiss, I mean, holy kiss, was one of the things that caused him a considerable amount of angst in the past and now that he has tied himself back onto the apron strings of holy momma church, we just wanted to make sure he was being a good Holdeman brother who nuzzles the muzzles of his 'brathren' as per ol' Johnny's instructions.

I mean, yes, it is one of the most emasculating things for a straight man in western culture to have to do, but you know, if you're going to be a Holdeman, I guess you might as well be a good Holdeman and engage in some good ol' fashioned lip-locking. I bet you miss it too, don't you, Hank?

Please respect Hank's right to post unmolested on his own thread. If he asks someone to refrain from certain behavior, then please do so. If it seems necessary to mock RM, then start a new thread to do it. Or something.

Regarding Saving Faith as found in the 33 articles of faith;

Article 12;

"We confess: That saving faith is not a vain or hidden thing unborn in man; nor does it consist in us having a historical knowledge derived from the holy Scriptures, and that we have much to say about it, without having the real substance or signification thereof. But the real and true faith, which avails before God, is a sure knowledge of the heart in a sure confidence, which we receive from God, not through our own power, will, or ability, but through the hearing of the word of God; and which, through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, is imprinted on, and written in, the heart, and works so effectually in us, that we are drawn away by it from all visible and perishable things, to the invisible and living God; acquiring thereby a new spiritual taste for that which is heavenly, and not for that which is earthly. For saving faith, accompanied with hope and love, is of such a nature that it conforms to things not seen."

The rest of article 12 can be read here; http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/C6653.html/c6653_12

Article 19 also speaks of a living faith that powerfully effects man being the number one sign of the true Christian church. This article reads;

"In the first place, all true Christians are known by the only saving faith, which works by love. It is wrought, through the grace of God, in the heart of man by the hearing of the word of God, and hence, is not founded and built upon human decrees, but upon the word of God alone; and it works so effectually that by it we are drawn and impelled from all visible things and sinful lusts of this world to the invisible God and His heavenly riches."

The rest of the article can be read here; http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/C6653.html/c6653_19

May God give us this faith.

Following is what John Bunyan says in allegory form in the Pilgrim's Progress, regarding saving faith.

2. As to the second, to wit, Mr. Superstition, and his charge against me, I said only this, that in the worship of God there is required a DIVINE FAITH; but there can be no divine faith without a DIVINE REVELATION of the will of God. Therefore, whatever is thrust into the worship of God that is not agreeable to DIVINE REVELATION, cannot be done but by a HUMAN FAITH; which faith will not be profitable to eternal life.

CHRISTIAN: Give me leave to put in a word. You ought not so slightly to speak of this matter: for this I will boldly affirm, even as my good companion hath done, that no man can know Jesus Christ but by the REVELATION OF THE FATHER: yea, and faith too, by which the soul layeth hold upon Christ, (if it be right,) must be wrought by the exceeding greatness of his mighty power,

Yea, thou also art ignorant of the true effects of saving faith in this righteousness of Christ, which is to bow and win over the heart to God in Christ, to love his name, his word, ways, and people, and not as thou ignorantly imaginest. HOPEFUL: Ask him if ever he had Christ revealed to him from heaven.

Jesus blest Peter's confession regarding Jesus being the Son of God, saying "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" (Matt 16:17). Faith caused by this inspiration and revelation from God is the core of saving or justifying faith. It makes the living waters flow of which Jesus spoke in John 7:38.

Regarding all men having an opportunity to be saved, and while salvation requires a knowledge of and faith in Jesus, God will give the needed knowledge by His revelation and providence to anyone on earth that truly seeks Him, and thus no one on earth is without opportunity of salvation. Apostle Paul in Rom 3 and Gal 4 clearly speaks of the faith of Abraham, and of man being saved by faith before Jesus died, and at the time when men were still quite ignorant of how Christ would die and complete Salvations plan. Just like men were saved by faith, before Christ died, and when they were quite ignorant of the plan of Salvation, so after it was fulfilled, people who did not have the opportunity to fully hear of the plan could still be saved by faith without fully understanding it. Jesus told Mary her faith had saved her, and quite obviously she like Jesus' disciples did not understand how Christ would die (Luke 7:50).

Following are some interesting quotes on the subject as found in the 33 articles of faith,

Article 10;
"But in no wise is it true that the gracious, merciful, and righteous God ... has ...predestinated, ... by far the greater number of the human race unto eternal damnation; or that, ... he let them remain without help in eternal death and condemnation, into which they had come WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND OWN ACTUAL EVIL WORKS, without having in this case seen and known the just cause of their rejection. Far be it from us, to believe this from the only good and righteous God!" The whole article can be read here http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/C6653.html/c6653_10

Article 15
"That it is necessary for all Christians to believe that the knowledge of the only Son of the Father, is, as one of the principal articles of our faith, in the highest degree essential unto salvation. It is therefore not sufficient to know Christ only after the flesh, or His humanity; as, that He was born of Mary, and became like unto us in all things, except sin; but we must also (which is the most important) know Him after the Spirit, and His eternal Godhead;" The whole article can be read here http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/C6653.html/c6653_15

I believe God can reveal Himself and His Son (The GodHead) to people in the wildest jungle, insomuch they can be saved without any aid of man. Yet their still is much opportunity for Christians to be missionaries. The last part of the writing found here, speaks of this subject much more; http://www.teachmegod.com/home5b.htm . Start at paragraph 37.

That's simple, Hank wishes he was back in the Holdeman church. One day, possibly right before he draws his last breath, he'll finally go back home to holdi-land.

When Hank says his bedtime prayer it goes something like this.

Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray John Holdeman my soul to keep.
If I should die, and be put in a box made of birch,
Please, make sure my funeral is in a Holdi-church.

Yup, Hank's going to join the other weak minded ones like RM. He's going to go back and do what RM has to do every communion whether he wants to or not, nuzzle the muzzle of other men.

Sirius: You are both a poet and a prophet.

You do have to wonder how RM is holding out these days. Do you think he has perfected the art of the BD&P (brief, dry and pursed) holdy kiss yet? How's the ol' man-on-man lip action workin' for you there RM? Be strong.
_______________
Well I done some reading on this thread, and have you ever seen anything like it.....a Christian honoring and atheist prophet?

You guys really are cowards. You know, as VS says, that you can mock and molest Hank because he won't say nothing to you or will only talk soft back to you, so you're embolden with your insecure mockeries because you fear Hank will join the church again before he dies and it might be a prophecy of your own way to come.

But I'm not sticking up for Hank's softness here: it a terrible thing that crept into Christian thinking.

Hank needs to learn how to put you guys in your place and shut your mouths.

These writings of your's is just another prime sample of the rude, uncouth, unrefined, unpoetic writings of the children of the Holdemans.

Brent

When they talk about Hank's legacy,
I'm sure it will be printed in the MOT.

See, Hank lived out his life as a holdi-outcast,
fondly recalling the days of his past.
He still counted them as brethren,
by his writings you could tell.
But little did he know,
they'd all damned him to hell.

When they wheel Hank down that Holdeman aisle,
The people will all say to themselves with a smile,
We knew he'd be back, to the true church of all time,
He's now, finally worthy of that heavenly climb.

In my judgment Hank will not seek re-admittance. But if he did he would still be a brother just the same. Many of the Holdeman people are christians. It's the system in some vital areas that's awfully flawed. Many good people around the countryside embrace flawed systems. Many church systems are flawed. The idea of a system in the first place seems to be flawed because of the nature of the mind when it impliments precepts and ordinances. That internal man-of-sin can be revealed and destroyed.

We do well to give everyone the freedom of church affiliation without ridicule. We will not be really free until we've set all men free!

The main problem I see concerning this forum is the bitterness displayed toward the Holdeman leaders. So long as this is the case with any of us, the negative anger and bitterness is effecting our lives adversely. This can be said over and over and then in a few days the bitterness starts up all over again on this format. It is time once and forever to put childish things away and become men and women, hopefully men and women of God! If we were to leave God out of the equation we need to forgive and forget. If we do not have the power to do this then likely we have less [pure power] than those we accuse. Think about it.

It is legitimate to first understand and then to write corrective things about a system but it is not okay to dwell in negative anger and bitterness, it's bad for one's naval.

If the error of a system is still a part of us [if we're angry and bitter this is still the case] then it's knowing the real Truth of the matter that will set us free. Now we can readily forgive and forget.

The problem is not the Holdeman leaders or anyone else that has deeply hurt or disappointed us, the real problem here is the residue of the Holdeman error still within us. That's the anger and bitterness realm. Bitterness has to do with the thing still being in us that we're bitter toward; if this were not the case, there would be no bitterness or negative anger.

There is a possibility of [positive anger because others are getting hurt] once the bitterness is gone. There is a profile here that's worthy of our notice.

Becoming aware of Truth sets the stage for change. Bitterness and anger cannot promote lasting and real change because both emotions act as "blinders"- narrowing our inner vision to what we only are experiencing.

Exactly!


There's a passage that speaks of those who oppose themselves. Wisdom moves us off and away from being our own enemy. Love oils up the process!

Brent U; read my post of May 12, 7:00 AM.

Hank longed for the Holdemans
not to count him as lost,
Probably has a statue of JH
hanging up on a cross.

He pines for the days of the 1970's
Before the purge and all H incivilities.
But Hank made a choice and as far as I can tell,
according to the Holdis he's going to hell.

Hank can wiffle and waffle and try to talk smack,
But at the end of his days, to the Holdis he'll crawl back.

Sirius;

I know it's fun my man, but leave Hank alone. You're abusing him. Hank does tolerate the Mennonites more than some but I believe he is honest and charitible in doing so.

Maybe it would be more honest on your part if you asked Hank if at some point he might consider going back to the Mennonites. Hank is of age; he can speak for himself.

On the other hand I appreciate your poetic form.

Hank;

Hank, lets start a forum where Truth is freely discussed without fear or favor.

One where surviving or healing from past wounds does not come into the equation, although that type forum can be helpful as well and has been.

One where great debate and dialogue can occur, heated if necessary. Good meals are usually heated. To make trouble is one thing but to be a trouble-maker is quite another.

I'll go for it if you will.

"Coming to terms with Truth. or "The Berean debate". You might have a better heading.

Sounds like a good idea,Doug.

I am signed up with 'The Berean' and get a daily verse and comment. Today's is:


Matthew 7:2

(2) For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.




Jesus warns us that we will receive the same kind of judgment that we make of others. Do we really want that? That warning ought to sober any thinking person! Do we really believe God when He gives us such a stern warning?

Jesus adds another warning: Our judgment may be distorted because we may have a flaw of far greater magnitude in us than the flaw we observe so critically in our brother. The unspoken intimation is that because the flaw is ours, and we love ourselves, we are willing to be lenient in our self-judgment. By focusing our criticism on another, it enables us to avoid scrutinizing ourselves carefully and critically. Some enjoy correcting others because it makes them feel virtuous, compensating for failures in themselves that they have no desire to face. But the judgment we make about others is in reality the judgment we will receive from God.



"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, and ignorance may deride it. But in the end, there it is."

Winston Churchill

GM

Great insights on how judgments work there way out.

Scary insights, sobering insights.