church of God forum

Miscellaneous-I-Contact Us-I-Preaching -I-Links -I- Photo gallery
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Forum  

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse

May 15 2009 at 7:03 AM

  (Login oldmanrip)

Excerpts: Pardon me for the formatting (or lack thereof). Anyway, the descriptions in the book read like a Who's Who of holdi behavior.


The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse
Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church.
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse was published in 1991. It became an instant classica reference book which is at once readable, moving and helpful in a practically spiritual way. It has been of great benefit in my life and in the lives of many of my friends. I was delighted to discover in my research on the Internet that The Subtle Power appears on virtually every recommended reading list for Spiritual Abuse. It is also the most frequently quoted and referenced book on the subject on the Internet.

What follows is a summary of a small part of the book. If you find this at all helpful, buy your own copy of the book.

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse is:

Dedicated
to the weary and heavy laden,
deeply loved by God,
but because of spiritual abuse,
find that the Good News
has somehow become
the bad news.
The book is structured according to the following plan.

Part I: Spiritual Abuse and its Victims
Introduction
1. Help Me
2. Spiritual Abuse is Not New
3. Abused Christians
4. The Pre-Abuse Set-up
5. Identifying the Abusive System
6. When You Cannot Leave
7. Abuse and Scripture
8. Revictimizing Victims

Part II: Abusive Leaders and Why They Are Trapped
Introduction
9. Because Im the Pastor, Thats Why!
10. You Can Trust Me
11. Image is Everything
12. Straining Gnats, Swallowing Camels
13. The Weight of Religion
14. No Admittance
15. Spreading the Gospel
16. The People Get Devoured

Part III: Post-Abuse Recovery
Introduction
17. How to Escape a Spiritual Trap
18. Renewing the Mind
19. Recovering Right Focus
20. One Response: Flight
21. A Second Response: Fight

Epilogue
Message to Perpetrators of Spiritual Abuse


What is Spiritual Abuse?
It is for
freedom that Christ has set
us free. Stand firm, then,
and do not let yourselves be burdened
again by a yoke
of slavery
(Gal. 5:1).
Spiritual abuse can occur when a leader uses his or her spiritual position to control or dominate another person. (p.20)

Spiritual abuse can also occur when spirituality is used to make others live up to a spiritual standard. (p.21)

Spiritual abuse occurs when shame is used in an attempt to get someone to support a belief, orto fend off legitimate questions. (p.22)

When your words and actions tear down another, or attack or weaken a person's standing as a Christianto gratify you, your position or your beliefs, while at the same time weakening or harming anotherthat is spiritual abuse. (p.23)

There are spiritual systems in whichthe members are there to meet the needs of the leaders These leaders attempt to find fulfillment through the religious performance of the very people whom they are there to serve and build. This is an inversion of the body of Christ. It is spiritual abuse. (p.23)

The Christian life begins with freedom from dead works, from religious sytems and from all human attempts to please God. Its time for many of us to shake off the religious sytems and expectations weve created, and return to that joyful freedom in Christ. (p.26)


Identifying the Abusive System
1. Power-Posturing
You were
bought at a
price; do not become slaves
of men
(1 Cor. 7:23).
Power-posturing simply means that leaders spend a lot of time focused on their own authority and reminding others of it, as well. This is necessary because their spiritual authority isnt realbased on genuine godly characterit is postured. (p.63)

Those who are in positions of true leadership demonstrate authority, spiritual power, and credibility by their lives and message. (p.64)

As Romans 13:1 says, There is no authority except from God. Being hired or elected to a spiritual position, talking the loudest, or giving the most does not give someone authority. (p.64)

2. Performance Preoccupation
Among my
people are
wicked men
who lie in wait like men who snare birds
their houses
are full of
deceit; they
have become
rich and powerful
Their evil
deeds have no limit; they do
not plead the cause of the fatherless
they do not
defend the
rights of the
poor
(Jer. 5:26-28).
If obedience and service is flowing out of you as a result of your dependence on God alone, you wont keep track of it with an eye toward reward, youll just do it. But if youre preoccupied with whether youve done enough to please God, then youre not looking at Him, youre looking at your own works. And youre also concerned about who else might be looking at you, evaluating you. Why would anyone keep track of their godly behaviour unless they were trying to earn spiritual points because of it? (p.65)

Are obedience and submission important? Without question. This can be seen in Romans 13:11 Peter 5:5and Hebrews 13:17. To bring balance, however, we must add to these verses an equally important passage. Consider the words of Peter and the other apostles in Acts 5:29: We must obey God rather than men. Notice that Peter is saying this to the religious leaders he was disobeying. Out of context, obedience to leaders looks like good theology. Add the larger context, and you will see that it is only appropriate to obey and submit to leadership when their authority is from God and their stance is consistent with His. (p.66)

In Romans 12:2 Paul says, Do not be conformed but be transformed . In a performance-based church or family, that verse might be applied like this: Our church or leader is right; we have a truer, purer word from God than others. Therefore, we must adhere to our formula or brand of Christianity as hard and fast as possibleso we wont become like those out there who dont think as we do. If I do not live up to all Ive been taught here, I will be letting God down. This orientation squeezes people from the outside in. They are not transformed, they are conformed. (p.66)
3. Unspoken Rules
Woe to you,
scribes and
Pharisees,
hypocrites,
because you
devour widows
houses, even
while for a
pretense you
make long
prayers;
therefore
you shall
receive greater
condemnation
(Matt. 23:14).
You know we must never disagree with the pastor on his sermonsand if you do, you will never be trusted and never be allowed to minister in any capacity in this church. In this case, the unspoken rule is: Do not disagree with the church authorities especially the pastoror your loyalty will be suspect. Rules like this remain unspoken, because examining them in the light of mature dialogue would instantly reveal how illogical, unhealthy and anti-Christian they are. So silence becomes the fortress wall of protection, shielding the pastors power position from scrutiny or challenge. (p.67)

In some churches there is an unwritten and unspoken rule that said, It is better to be nice than honest.

If you speak about the problem out loud, you are the problem.

The truth is, when people talk about problems out loud, they don't cause them, they simply expose them. (p.68)

Too many churches communicate this kind of shaming message: The problem is not that your boundaries were crossed and violated, the problem is that you talked. If you would not have made such a big deal, everything would still be fine. If a person accepts that message, they will stop talking.

The real problem, however, is that if a Christian who feels violated stops talking, then the perpetrator will never be held accountable for his behaviour. (p.69)

4. Lack of Balance
Come to Me,
all who are
weary and heavy-laden,
and I will give
you rest. Take
My yoke upon
you, and learn from Me, for I
am gentle and humble in
heart; and you shall find rest
for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My
load is light
(Matt. 11:28).
Johnson and VanVonderen identify two extremes, both of which produce an unbalanced approach to living out the Christian lifeExtreme Objectivism and Extreme Subjectivism.

The first extreme is an empirical approach to life, which elevates objective truth to the exclusion of valid subjective experience. (p.69)

This approach to spirituality creates a system in which authority is based upon the level of education and intellectual capacity alone, rather than on intimacy with God, obedience and sensitivity to his Spirit. (p.70)

The other manifestation of lack of balance is seen in an extremely subjective approach to Christian life. What is true is decided on the basis of feelings and experiences, giving more weight to them than what the Bible declares. (p.70)

Even further, we believe it is dishonesteven dangeroussimply to receive and act upon a spiritual directive because you are supposed to be submissive, or because someone is in authority. In the end, God is the One before whom we must all stand, the one to whom we must answer. (p.71)


They tie up
heavy loads,
and lay them
on mens
shoulders; but they
themselves
are unwilling
to move them
with so much
as a finger
(Matt. 23:4).
5. Paranoia

In a place where authority is grasped and legislated, not simply demonstrated, persecution sensitivity builds a case for keeping everything within the system. Why? Because of the evil, dangerous, or unspiritual people outside of the system who are trying to weaken or destroy us. This mentality builds a strong wall or bunker around the abusive system, isolates the abusers from scrutiny and accountability, and makes it more difficult for people to leavebecause they will be outsiders, too. (p.73)

Ironically, Jesus and Paul both warned that one of the worst dangers to the flock was from wolves in the house (Matthew 10:16; Acts 20:29-30). (p.74)
6. Misplaced Loyalty

The next characteristic of spiritually abusive systems is that a misplaced sense of loyalty is fostered and even demanded. Were not talking about loyalty to Christ, but about loyalty to a given organization, church, or leader. (p.76)

A common way this is accomplished is by setting up a system where disloyalty to or disagreement with the leadership is construed as the same thing as disobeying God. Questioning leaders is equal to questioning God. After all, the leader is the authority, and authority is always right. This causes people to misplace their loyalty in a leader, a church or an organization. (p.76)

There are three factors that come into play here, adding up to misplaced loyalty. First, leadership projects a we alone are right mentality, which permeates the system. Members must remain in the system if they want to be safe, or to stay on good terms with God, or not to be viewed as wrong or backslidden.

The second factor that brings about misplaced loyalty is the use of scare tactics. For example:
God is going to withdraw His Spirit from you and your family.
God will destroy your business.
Without our protection, Satan will get your children.
You and your family will come under a curse.

The third method of calling forth misplaced loyalty is the threat of humiliation. This is done by publicly shaming, exposing, or threatening to remove people from the group.

In the abusive system, it is the fear of being exposed, humiliated or removed that insures your proper allegiance, and insulates those in authority. You can be exposed for asking too many questions, for disobeying the unspoken rules, or for disagreeing with authority. People are made public examples in order to send a message to those who remain. Others have phone campaigns launched against them, to warn their friends and others in the group about how dangerous they are. (p.76,77)

7. Secretive

When you see people in a religious system being secretive watch out. People dont hide what is appropriate; they hide what is inappropriate. (p.78)

One reason spiritually abusive families and churches are secretive is because they are so image conscious. People in these systems cant even live up to their own performance standards, so they have to hide what is real. Some believe they must do this in order to protect Gods good name. So how things look and what others think becomes more important than whats real. They become Gods public relations agents. The truth is, Hes not hiring anyone for this position. (p.78)

Johnson and VanVonderen believe it is imperative to refocus victims of spiritual abuse on the truth about God and His good news. For this reason, they offer a list of reminders, from the heart of God as follows:

God loves us a great deal:
See how great a love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are
(1 John 3:1).

He is extravagant with His grace:
To the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Belovedaccording to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us (Ephesians 1:6-8).

He makes us stand:
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge (2 Corinthians 1:21-22).

He can be trusted:
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful (Hebrews 10:23).

We have been made entirely new:
Knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him (Romans 6:6).
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation
(2 Corinthians 5:17).

We have been handpicked:
Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4).

We are blameless in His sight:
that we should be holy and blameless before Him

What is His is ours already:
We have obtained an inheritance (Ephesians 1:11), because The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ (Romans 8:16-17).

God is not keeping track:
And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17).

He doesnt have a problem with our struggles and pain:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort; who comforts us in our affliction (2 Corinthians 1:3-4).

We dont need to improve on what Hes done:
In Him you have been made complete (Colossians 2:10), and Hence, also, He is able to save completely those who draw nigh to God through Him (Hebrews 7:25).

When we fail, Jesus defends us:
Since He always lives to make intercession for them (Hebrews 7:25), and If anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1).


Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your
fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and
a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,
shepherd the flock of God among you,
exercising oversight not under compulsion,
but voluntarily, according to the will of God;
and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;
nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge,
but proving to be examples to the flock.
And when the Chief Shepherd appears,
you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders;
and all of you, clothe yourself with humility
toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud,
but gives grace to the humble (1 Peter 5:1-5).


The authors of The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse,
David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen, may be contacted at:
Damascus, Inc.
Box 22432
Minneapolis, MN 55422
(612) 537-0217

 
 Respond to this message   
AuthorReply

LL
(Login Locklady)

Re: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse

May 15 2009, 4:33 PM 

Amazingly good Book Scott, Another one of those things that got me into trouble, reading it and passing it around.

 
 


(Login doug-64)

subtle?

May 15 2009, 7:01 PM 


You know I remember that the term [proof-read] was something that must be done [before] the masses would get ahold of a book. LL you must have been in the cookie jar with these writings or were you proof- reading? All these things pop in my mind when I hear what people say about reading and handing things out.
It seems like all that was at least two life-times ago.

Anything that speaks of religious control and it's abuse would not be kosher reading. Scott's the one who would be a good [proof-reader]. Did you ever hear him do the persona thing?


    
This message has been edited by doug-64 on May 15, 2009 7:05 PM


 
 

LL
(Login Locklady)

Re: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse

May 15 2009, 9:16 PM 

Actually Doug, that book was copyrighted in 91. I came across it 10 or so yrs ago. Reading it was like having lights come on. It is unreal how it speaks of our situation that we lived in for so long. I passed it to some folks in similar situations and one mans son borrowed his van while he had it. We purposely did not put a name of book ownership in it. the guy that had it apologised when it disappeared. We were hoping that the H that took it actually read it. Never heard though.

I wish I could get a job doing proof reading. I did do it for a beachy neighbor that wrote children's stories yrs ago. I love to read and it is something that I can do very quickly, like a whole book a nite in about 1-1/2 hours. Now if I could just get hooked up with a publishing company and get a job.
Just finished God in the Shadows/ From East to West. By Ravi Zacharias. Picked it up at a garage sale this afternoon in Berlin If you ever get a chance to hear this man, do. He is amazing. this is the second book I have read by him and I have listened to several sermon tapes.

But seriously, reading the book Scott put on here, puts a whole new demension to the Church experience.
I remember a few yrs ago when we had a new water treatment system installed, the installer was a young man starting out in the ministry, that was the same age as our oldest son. He was about 23, was married and had a baby and was doing water treatment systems to support his family while he went to school. We got in a conversation about God, churches and hiarchial systems. He told how his family had gone thru a similar situation in a baptist type church not far from here and his parents were so traumatised by what had happened that his father hadn't been in a church house for 5 yrs at that time. They had even moved completely out of the community to another state. We cried and prayed together as we shared the pain that our families had been thru.

I think one of the most important things to remember is that what we are dealing with is not exclusive to the H nor to us individidually. But it is common in all denomiations, peoples and communities around the world.
Satan is in war against God in this world, no matter what and where makes no difference to him. He seeks to maim, kill and destroy in whatever manner it takes.

 
 


(Login doug-64)

abuse?

May 16 2009, 6:48 AM 

LL
Good insights.

You would make a good proof-reader. I have written several books [in maniscript form] and I shall never forget the time some twenty years ago when I mailed the maniscripts to a publishing house in Penn. and paid $200 for them to proof-read the pre-book.

I was of the mind that they would edit the maniscripts and place them in the orders of chapters but they said that I must do that with the idea that substance could be lost.

There are many good things available which speak to the foundational building blocks from where people are religiously abused. Thank God for this. It seems the choir is who is reading this stuff however and by [choir] I mean those who have been abused rather than those who do the abusing.

There is no religious system to my knowledge going about reading things [how to correct themselves]. There is something so gratifying, i.e. [self-elevating], about the abuse of others at the level of [being right] that no one in that type of thing desires correction. Some are so set into this type of thing that to be corrected they would have to violate both their doctrine and their god.

Which brings to mind another thing: anyone escaping from this type of religious organization, does well to start all over and not assume that he or she knows the living God in an intimate way. How can this be assumed, considering the circumstances from where we hailed? That assumption if we carry on with it can lead down many rabbit-trails that go nowhere. All we know is what we once believed in has turned us out to pasture and it hurts awfully. Furthermore we are faced with things around us which are not familiar. The culture shock is bad enough.

I personally think that everyone in conditions such as these would do well to find a consistant place of prayer to sincerely and earnestly seek the face of the true God revealed in Christ Jesus. It may take some time for Him to come to us or it may occur quickly. Secondly, make sure that we receive no pressure from any religious person with an agenda!

In my own experience I earnestly and sincerely sought the Lord for over a year and when He did come to me the power of it was completely overwhelming! He did not come physically, He did not come emotionally, He came Spiritually! He is Spirit and He comes that way when He actually comes to us! He is not emotion and He is not a man to come physically.

As for myself, I have not been the same since He came to me so powerfully which is some thirty years ago now.

The earnest, fervent and prolonged prayer from a contrite heart avails much.

Because the abused has been hurt and nearly destroyed at many levels the abused one tends to think that [they] are wrong and [I] am right. This goes nowhere fast. This easily comes from the idea that I know God but they do not. This is a dangerous position. Those that we call they, may not intimately know God but to begin from a place that I know God and they do not, is not a good place from which to advance.

If the abused one has spent much sincere prayer time in pursuing the living God, the living God will come to this person in massive and life-changing ways! That's His promise! He will not turn away from the contrite inquiring heart!




    
This message has been edited by doug-64 on May 16, 2009 1:37 PM
This message has been edited by doug-64 on May 16, 2009 11:05 AM
This message has been edited by doug-64 on May 16, 2009 9:54 AM
This message has been edited by doug-64 on May 16, 2009 7:20 AM
This message has been edited by doug-64 on May 16, 2009 6:53 AM


 
 


(Login Aaronsboy)

Re: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse

May 17 2009, 6:57 AM 

From Scott's post: "He can be trusted:
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful (Hebrews 10:23)."

A number of things contribute to our understanding of our spiritual condition, and the above was a major point that carried me through when I was trying to find what being a child of God was about. I questioned, can God be trusted to mean what He says? Does He notice or hear an individual who comes to Him with a broken heart and soul ? and is such faith/trust dependent on clerics and how they view God ? Pardon me for referring again to my mother, but this is one thing she instilled in me... that is that God can be trusted, He does forgive and He will carry us through any battle we face, and this apart from any clergy. (Not in any way to give wrong slant on my mother, I need say that she was a dedicated Holdeman who knew Christ and carried His love in her being. Her last conversation with me was about heaven, love, acceptance and a family member that concerned her.)

What the above posters refer to in their life has to do with this very point, and it is the crux of "faith". Faith is non-existent if the object of faith (God/Christ) cannot be trusted. Such is no faith at all. God is true to His Word and He will never fail any who come to Him with a honest heart of faith. And it is our responsibility to fan the smallest flicker of faith in others.

"A bruised reed He will not break, and a smoking flax He will not quench..." Isaiah 42:3 p


    
This message has been edited by Aaronsboy on May 17, 2009 7:01 AM


 
 

Scott
(Login oldmanrip)

Re: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse

May 18 2009, 6:22 PM 

Got the book today from the library. It is hard for me to read. What the authors call abuse pales in comparison to the Holdeman's. I believe the authors would consider the Holdeman system more abusive than anything they had ever encountered, with the exception perhaps of a really far-out intense cult. Has any Holdeman read this...if so, how do you cope with the information? Every single aspect of abuse the authors speak of is as normal and comfortable as breathing in the life of a Holdeman. Truly, abuse has become normal, and is therefore, no longer alarming. A severe lack of education also help a lot to keep this covered up. Ignorance of the people is absolutely necessary.

 
 

(Login BrentU)

Re: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse

May 18 2009, 6:47 PM 

Scott, in the time of our own responsibility, the abuse is no greater than what can water it.

Brent

 
 


(Login oldmanrip)

Excerpt from book

May 18 2009, 7:30 PM 

"When a man or woman is going through a dry time in life, lost and tired and searching out a cool, safe place to rest, they need some good news, some living water. They go to Church, the place that is supposed to be the safest - after all, didn't the Lord say if we came to Him, He would give rest? In church, they encounter people who look safe, who seem genuinely interested in helping. These people have their relationships wi5tih God together; they are the most concerned about what God wants. But then, they inject their venom of performance-based religion and the seeker find that their strength, health, and very spiritual life is sapped. When the person wants to leave, the "vipers" latch on and won't let go.

 
 


(Login oldmanrip)

Re: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse

May 18 2009, 8:14 PM 

It is hopeless to try an capture the best stuff of the book. EVERY paragraph of EVERY page is full of stuff like this:

"In Shame-based systems, member have to deny any thought, opinion or feeling that is different than those of people in authority. Anything that has potential to shame those in authority is ignored, or denied. People can't find out about life through normal trial-and-error learning because mistakes shame."

"Shame-based relationships build on an emotional foundation that undermines relational honesty; hinders a maturing individual relationship with God; and foster dependence upon another, who grows in power as a false leader, building an unhealthy system in which appearance is more important than reality. The system victimize people and set them up to be trapped in future abusive relationships."

"The first characteristic of an abusive religious system is power-posturing. Power posturing is simply that leaders spend a lot of time focused on their own authority and reminding other of it as well. This is necessary because their spiritual authority isn't real.."


    
This message has been edited by oldmanrip on May 18, 2009 8:15 PM


 
 


(Login doug-64)

abuse?

May 18 2009, 9:35 PM 

The type authority that abuses is never from God, it is always assumed; it is never actually real or authentic. Men deceive other men to think that this type authority is of God.

[In secular law this type authority is needed at the present time [but it's a necessary evil] at it's very best. This whole realm is anchored in the information of the forbiddden tree i.e. the knowledge of good and evil.

The authority the Spirit of God gives is never over other people! Men assume authority over others and it usually gets abused. This limitation in the house of God is hard to receive by some. The authority that the Spirit of God directly gives believing men and women is over sin, sickness, disease, and devils, and that's where it stops.

An assumed authority anchors itself in ideas [that one has likely read in a book or the idea may have originated in one's own mind]. Albeit the idea is now valued larger and higher than the human being! It does not matter what book it comes from [if indeed it comes from a book]. This type authority is hanky-panky of the highest grade.

Once Truth is reduced to an idea that can be known with the mind, power seekers will use it to abuse others. Is the knowledge of good and evil the problem? Not really. This knowledge is God-created and His creation is good. The problem is the ego sin-man in the human race.

Power seeking individuals somehow get it into their heads that in valuing an idea higher and larger than the human being, they actually do God a favor many many times. This is absolutely phony even if the idea is a good one and comes from the Bible itself.

In the house of God we perpetuate this problem when we continue to partake of the information tree which concerns good and evil. This pursuit is shame-based, always. The one who has gotten past all of his shame by the experiential cross places no value on knowledge of good and evil at all. This one is in the Spirit of the Lord! This one is walking and talking with God in the same way that Adam and Eve were before the mess-up occurred!

The Eden scenario is speaking loudly, if we will but hear it.

By knowledge of good and evil is how the man-of-sin is revealed/exposed, to put it in a religious format. Only the brilliance of Christ Jesus can destroy this one in the human race! Only supernaturally given Love can destroy this ego-maniac!

This evil man manifests in the high places of politics, of finances, of science, and in every religion known to mankind.

One must yield and die into this [external] authority once one is a part of it's system or one is plunged into judgment. Complete willingness for the [exterior] authority is the cryteria for a smooth operation. Check the local law on the secular front if there's some question here.

This is quite parallel to true Christianity which is our death into the Personhood of Christ and a complete willingness to comply with the inner Christ! The evil one has no creation of his own. All he's done is this; he has counterfeited God! The evil one runs off counterfeit money in the lower hold; it purchases and it controls if one believes in it. Usually it's paper money with no gold or silver behind it.






    
This message has been edited by doug-64 on May 19, 2009 6:21 AM


 
 


(Login oldmanrip)

Re: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse

May 19 2009, 8:48 AM 

Also from book: "God is for people, not religious systems."

 
 
Current Topic - The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse  Respond to this message   
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Forum  
Caution: This forum may contain statements and comments that are offensive. If you are easily offended, please exit this forum now. By using this forum you agree to be accountable and liable for your post's. All postings are the responsibility of the posting participant. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the management.

Click here to see Fair use notice What the CGCM believes, (Stoppels site)

_________________________