Stories connect us to the reality of our experience. Without a story in the script, we can hold the writing at bay or claim it without it requiring anything of us. But we have to receive a story. It tells us of life. One learns more by a story than by a scholarly text book kind of learning. A story gets into the heart and soul of our existence. A text book exercises our mind. Of course we have to begin in the text books because as a child our stories are limited. At the very early stages, they're hardly even our own stories because we are carried where we don't know. But our life should eventually start building stories by which we can reflect on that experience and see how it measures up against our childhood training. But the stories have to be our own. They can't be the stories of others we reflect on to make adjustments in our childhood training. This don't say we can't observe the stories of others to learn more about our own stories.

Brent

That's good stuff. Stories do not place pressure upon us and yet do draw us out beyond ourselves. They are like a good tune with good lyrics i.e. the language of the soul!

"Stories do not place pressure upon us"

Doug, the stories is what tries us. It's the scholarly stuff that don't.

Brent

Brent;

The scholarly stuff does indeed [to use your word] try many people. It is possible that this type thing does not affect you in the same way. If we generalize this type thing we're going to miss it in many instances.

<< Doug, the stories is what tries us. It's the scholarly stuff that don't. >>>

Doug, you have a much higher tolerance for rhetorical BS than I do. LOL!
But I understand where the position comes from. The holdies invalidate scholarship also. Actually, this was one of the defining factors in the book on "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse", i.e., to appeal to an authority of based on exclusive esoteric knowledge and to denigrate scholarship.

Scott, I read your whole post you couldn't leave up there.

You're always trying to connect me to the Holdemans with what you don't like about me.

Do the Holdemans think, believe, write, talk, live, have the ideas I do? They're not on my band wagon. The religious Holdemans exonerate and honor you before they do me. The record is on this forum. And you're the one that argues with the Holdeman, not me. There's locical fallacies in your post.

You're guilty of what you accuse me of doing with scholarship - denigrating a way you call "unconventional and uncommon".

I warn you Scott, if your lies, misrepresentations, wicked insinuations of me are ever dealt with on a spiritual level, you're be facing something you have no control or experience in.

You disregard a whole lifetime and story of what I'm about, just to shake off any revelation about your own unproven and common life.

Brent

BS Brent. Our problem is that you don't intimidate me, and this further exacerbated by the fact that I have good critical thinking skills. Lets take your profound thought for example:

<< the stories is what tries us. It's the scholarly stuff that don't.>>>

You present this as some kind of truth but its bullsh*t. You force-compare learning by stories versus learning by scholarship in a contrived context which forces to reader to contemplate on of them as untrue. This is contrived.

The fact is, stories (parables) are great ways to learn (Jesus often used them), and scholarship is also a great way to learn. Boiled down, you are comparing and judging modalities of learning. You have in this case, expanded a practical consideration of which learning modality works best for you and extrapolated it into the stratosphere until it becomes a theory, or even worse, a right or wrong. You have no right to do this. So do what's best for yourself and shutup. Brent, you can be insightful in many areas, but you are (in an intllectual context) highly provincial rather than eclectic.

...my God, and then this effeminate, emotionally-charged, irrational, esoteric hyperbole meant to intimidate by appealing to higher spiritual authority which neither of us can prove or disprove. Bullsh*t.

<< I warn you Scott, if your lies, misrepresentations, wicked insinuations of me are ever dealt with on a spiritual level, you're be facing something you have no control or experience in. >>>

Go read Stan's list of logical fallacies. This is on their also.


Brent, it appears that all your sense of self-worth is wrapped up in the demand that you are the sage, the guru, rather than just knowing who you are inside. Rather than just putting your wisdom out there for others to contemplate, you defend it with the sense that if you aren't top dog, then you have nothing left. You do need counseling buddy. Some piss-ant nurturing type therapist with a sand tray may not "get" you, but a highly intelligent researcher in the analysis of cognitive behavior MO's would get you like you were a lab rat in a cage.

Brent, I was thinking about your response. I see this. Many intelligent people who have strong wills and highly developed critical thinking skills have intimidating presentations, but the intimidation is not the basis of their argument. If challenged, intimidation is your argument of choice. Do you see the difference? I'm not bothered by you presenting your facts at 120 decibels while beating your chest. I am bothered however by intimidation being used as your basic and only argument. Do you understand what I'm saying here.

I have good critical thinking skills

Really?

Proverbs 21:2a
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes:


1 Corinthians 1:26-29
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in his presence.


Scott, are you greater or more qualified than some others because of your self-acclaimed critical thinking skill? Or does it cause you to miss the basics?

TR, do you REALLY want to have a conversation with me? I claim good critical thinking skills but claim an OTVC regarding nothing. I put my thoughts out there to be considered, assimilated, or discarded. You (as a group) claim to be humble, self-effacing, etc. , and yet claim to have the only way. You pull this off by laundering your personal arrogance through a corporation, a system. My way is honest. Your way is not only dishonest, but even downright dysfunctional/irrational. Go figure. Now go away TR and I really do mean that. Go AWAY! SHOO! Or I will get out my fly swatter.

"but claim an OTVC regarding nothing."

Ah, we all have wild cards, don't we?

Did you reason that one away by the same critical thinking that eliminated eternal punishment?

And... if you don't claim to be the OTVC (whether organized, incorporated or not, all of that is beside the point to me personally, FYI), why would you bother getting so passionate about your beliefs? Does it really matter? Isn't posting on here a waste of time then?


Since your way isn't the one true way, then others may possibly be right where they belong, including me? If not, then you are, in fact, preaching a one true way. How obvious does it need to get?

TR;

The Word of God does not teach eternal punishment. The reason this cannot be taught with any effect is that no human being can get the arms of one's mind around such a concept. It's mainly scary words used to frighten men and women into a behavior change.

If you scare them to get them then you must keep them scared to keep them.

First of all a natural fire has no effect upon a spirit. So in qualifying the eternal fire we must concede that it is a spiritual fire that burns away the dross and the chaff. "My God is a consuming fire," it says. God is redemptive and "there is no vairableness nor any shadow of turning in Him," He shall always be redemptive! If we intimately know Him we know this!

We cannot even get our mind around the idea that natural space is none-ending let alone being tormented in an unending way. Since that cannot be grasped, it has no real meaning at all. It's just scary if you dwell in the realm of fear. In the realm of God's Love there is no fear.

The Word of God does teach that there is an [eternal fire]! The Word of God does teach that the smoke of their torment will ascend forever and ever if we choose fire. But it does not teach that the torment is perpetual. The torment is an age to endure if we miss Grace.

The fire has a redemptive effect because that is the nature of our God! Nothing that defiles will enter into the heaven that God occupies. We're dealing with not only perfect justice but with the purpose of His will as well. Consider Eph.1:9-10.

Know this, how can a man explain away a thing that was not true to begin with? It is not so easy to work through the mistranslations of the translations if that is the path one chooses to go. But to know Him is easy and His bruden is light! Men make it hard because men are so shame ridden.

"Now go away TR and I really do mean that. Go AWAY! SHOO! Or I will get out my fly swatter."

Scott, can't you stay around and finish just one of your wars?

"BS Brent. Our problem is that you don't intimidate me, and this further exacerbated by the fact that I have good critical thinking skills."

Scott, there's more to the world than your little piss ant stage you jockey around on. You act like the only way to weigh intimidation is by your self-patting critical thinking skills. When a bigger stage is being set up while you're behind the curtain powdering yourself and not paying attention, when the curtain is drawn back, you're as naked as you can be.

Absolutely a bigger stage is going to intimidate you. Why else would you drag up an old charge. Shall the bigger stages be dismantled so you can be safe, effeminate, sheltered, and healed, to say nothing of you being able to keep your God damned telephone justice. Someone always has to be holding your hand.

For the most part I post and walk away. The problem start after I write something and people don't understand it but know they don't like it, then write something sneaky and fool against me. Then when I don't let it have any ground, I'm charged with intimidation and many other things, but clearly the error took place before hand.

Scott, let me deal with your lying posts from this angle.

"If you have some daily anguish from some cause that's not really your fault - a rotten family, bad health, nowhere looks, serious money problems, nobody to help you, minority background, rejoice! These things are your fuel."

"You can't sleep your way to the top or even the middle, and there is no such thing as a free lunch. You have to do it yourself, so you might as well get started." - Helen Brown, New York Times

This is the kind of stuff I seek out daily and fill my mind with - the real actual stories of people that do more than make trouble and run their mouths.

I find the quotes above in world news papers, literature and spiritual writings everyday. I don't read books like "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". All a book like that does is fertilize the abuse. And people think they're growing and learning. That's what I mean about scholarship. Its a very deceptive and dangerous way of learning if people don't believe and see these things. Scholarship has its place, but one should move on and watch it like a hawk. People should start building their stories, their spiritual house.

You religious people blame your families, blame your religion, make excuses for your own failure, unjustly accuse those that try you, and then when your world screws up, you go for counseling instead of unscrewing your world and straightening out the mess you're in that has an obvious trail you can go back on and learn from your mistakes.

So you go for counseling, the whole thing is still in your heart, no restitutions are made, no healing for the other parties, you're only healed as far as the problem, and because of that other problem develop, more counseling is required, all hope for a higher more permanent healing is cut off, now everything has to be managed and mechanically fixed, one can't appeal to a nobler life of self reliance and independence, but if you want to hold each others hand and feed each other, be each others guest.

Brent

Hey Brent, I've had, and I have some grief, but I'm happier than I've ever been in my life, and peace and tranquility is the order of my home. So how's it going for you?

Also, you speak much of counseling. What's up with that bee in your bonnet? I've never been helped by a counselor, but I have helped myself. Hey, maybe I agree with you after all.

Brent, perhaps we shouldn't debate anymore on any topic. I'm so happy that I simply can't take any of this serious anymore. I'm getting Rip and his buddy shoed on the sixteenth. Come up and ride, we'll see Rockies from the back of a horse. Let TR swat his own flies. What do you think?

There is a foot and horse trail that starts low on Browns creek and goes up to Brown lake on the back side of Antereo and White. It ends up in my favorite place in all these mountains, nearly at timberline. The little 8" cutthroats take a fly so hard up there that they almost swallow their tongues. Also, the incredible Popular Gulch trail that starts at St Elmo and goes over the continental divide and drops down into Cottonwood west of Buena Vista. If that isn't riding the high country, then what is? Let's do it. Bring a sheep skin for your ass if your not used to a saddle.

The thing is, TR, our own critical thinking skills and deductive reasoning talents have brought us as well to our own conclusions which cannot be shaken from us. Things not found in the Bible, but "inferred', such as the One True Church doctrine, beards for men, no musical instruments, etc. As well as the way we practice things such as the holy kiss, excommunication & avoidance and also in how we define what is "worldly" and what is "Christian" A large part of how we live and practice has been set in order by the reasoning and deduction of someone or someones in the interim between now and when the Bible was written. Of course, we call it Holy Spirit direction and that settles the matter. We as a people have little to learn from the verses you quoted, except to apply them to someone else and as to how they would apply to one's personal deviation from the dictates of the CGCM.

TR - >>Scott, are you greater or more qualified than some others because of your self-acclaimed critical thinking skill? Or does it cause you to miss the basics?< <br>


Critical thinking is in very short supply with the H. Why? Because of judging each other, and the exing fear factor.





anonH ->> A large part of how we live and practice has been set in order by the reasoning and deduction of someone or someones in the interim between now and when the Bible was written.< <br>


Yeah, by the legalists.

Anon H, I have to agree with you. I sometimes find it totally amazing that such intelligent people can sometimes be so, shall we say stubborn. So 20,000 people can't be wrong. So, there are dozens of other 20,000 to 100,000 people groups (there are currently more than 5 times the amish in the US than there are Holdemans and you think they need your witness to show them a better way?) and many that are so much larger that have belief systems in place that they believe in just as strong as any H does. What part of 20,000 does that relate in the 6 billion presently on earth? In all honesty, I think there would be much more of a drawing to others if there would be more up front honesty coming from members. Like when asked questions like, Do you have a dress code? Do you believe you are the one true church? Well, DUH. I can't be reaccepted because I never believed it in the first place and even though it is no longer a question that I was exed wrongly based on a minister's lies to make me and many others to be living in grave sins when we weren't. If my situation was just about me, it would probably have been over long ago. but it never was just about me, It was about all the others that were lied about and decieved and spit out like dirt. and then condemned because they became offended or hurt and were struggling to overcome the abuse they suffered at the hands of overbearing judgement.
Dou you have a dress code? the standard answer is no. But heaven help you if you step outside of it. Or be the poor woman that joins from outside and has no sewing skills and must wait for someone to be available to make her clothes that are considered modest by the current standards.
There are a lot of you that I believe are honest as much as you can be. But there are lots of H that simply do not even know what the church really believes enough to even give a testimony of what they believe themselves. How many really believe in GOD and Jesus Christ first and foremost? Or How many in reality put their salvation in the CHURCH and simply answer questions with this is what the church does. Do You really know what you believe and are you willing to answer it?

I know for myself that I spent entirely too many years in a quandry because I did not know what to answer because if I gave the answer in my heart, it did not coincide with what I was taught to say. Too often I told my children that were members when I wasn't, " You cannot do that because you are going against the church standards." Instead of telling them " YOU should not do that because it is not a christian thing to do. It is not a good testimony to God".

I was put on the spot the other day when I was in Walmart. A man came up to me and said, "What kind of Mennonite are you?" It was a legitamite question, because around here you are identified by your dress style, your head covering and the length of your dress. And anyone that is familiar with the different branches knows as soon as they see one and I no longer have a uniform that fits a code of dress. But I found myself floundering because I am so used to answering by denomination name and now I have none. I need to recognise that as a child of the KING I now have a different identity. I am not a Holdeman Mennonite, I am a Christian.

Sometimes I wonder what will happen when the H recognise that and make Christ their head instead of the church. I think It will truly be a different people there.

I have another question and maybe I should have started a new thread.
After a member is expelled, does the church have any right to ask him anything or tell him how it is going to be? If a person is no longer a "brother or sister"/member, how can the church still tell him what to do and if it isn't followed, think the person is resistant and rebellious?

How, indeed.

Maybe I should clarify. I don't like to say too much about my husband and the church situation because I realize it isn't necessary and it gets old,blah,blah. For over a year now we have been sitting at the table with everyone else as normal at school functions or receptions, etc. I have wondered how long that was going to last and a while ago at a wedding reception, I noticed there was a table set just an inch or two away from the rest of the row and as we left the bar with our plates, I noticed one of our ministers talking quietly to an usher there and as we came by, the usher asked me if we were going to sit at that table? I told him no, we were headed down the row there and I really didn't think more of it. But the wheels were turning, and a few weeks ago on our last day of school, there was a table (card table type) set way apart, and I wondered. Sure enough, when I went to help our little people get their food, the same minister went over to my husband and I knew what was going on. He told my husband that it wasn't necessarily the ministers' idea as much as there were different ones in the congregation who had been asking them about it since he had been sitting with them like normal. He also said that he thought we were one of the few or the only congregation(s) that didn't uphold this doctrine. He told K there was a table set separate today and he hoped he would sit there and respect the way they felt. He also told K that he didn't feel like it was right to treat him like normal otherwise and then avoid him at eating.

I related the above very correctly and did not try to embellish or twist it.

Here are my questions/thoughts and I welcome input from the members very much. I do not feel like I am looking for "sides", sympathy or whatever. I don't think I'm bitter Been down the bitter path, been down the rebellious road, confused corners, you name it, and do not want to ever go there again. I have been trying hard to make decisions based not on feeling, but on fact.

This same meal, there were different "outsiders" there. Now, K is a clean, decent guy who comes to these deals because his kids are important to him and he just wants to be there for them and be a normal dad. He doesn't want to be known as righteous K, good K, bad K, Holdeman K or ExH K, he just wants to be K, thanks. These other people could have screwed around numerous times, watch porn 24/7, beat their kids/wife, and they can sit there and eat with the H, no problem. K was exed because he didn't go along with everything,like the revival syndrome,etc... No death sins, just didn't conform. He is asked to sit at a different table away from me and the kids. Is this all Biblical? If we are to avoid those that commit death sins, how does that work? Do we go up to each person and ask them what they have been involved in before we decide if we can eat with them? Another thing that interests me is when we go out of state and people hold the avoidance. How do they know? Strictly hearsay,correct? Biblical,or no? Something about that is weird, in a way. You can go anywhere in the country and be avoided just because of word of mouth.

Next question..How can the church ask a person who is no longer a "brother/member to do ANYthing to conform to their doctrine or thinking? THAT is definitely a weird thought road to go down because it gets weirder the more you think about it.

The minister told him they couldn't force him to sit separate but they hoped he would respect it. K told him that when in someone's home, he either respects their way or doesn't go, but in a large group function, he thought it was ridiculous to try to hold it. K sat with the children and I as normal and I'm sure he was labeled rebellious or resistant. I can tell you one thing he was not, and that was "drawn".

One more thing. I thought it inappropriate that the minister told him there were different ones complaining about it. That can work on your psyche and makes you wonder who's talking and why are certain ones getting so distant. And the bit about being the only congregation that didn't hold the doctrine...does that have anything remotely to do with it?

cupcake, are you trying to process H behavior in the context of some kind of truth?

Of course I'm no psychologist, cupcake, but I do have a theory as to why they are raising such a stink about K just trying to be a normal person. They are losing their power, cupcake. It's as simple as that. When K comes to a function such as the last day of school and wants to just be a normal Dad and goes ahead and eats where he pleases, the power that the H wants to hold over him is diluted. They don't like that. What if others get expelled and think that they will just eat wherever they please with everyone else? It's a problem for the h and they feel out of control. They are grasping at straws, cupcake, and they don't know what else to do. It's their last line of defense, public humiliation.

Tell K to hang tough. He's dealing with a group of extremely weak minded humans and the best way to deal with them is to let them thrash around and beat their heads against the walls in which they exist. Let it be their problem. K can eat wherever he pleases.

Absolutely spot on, Sirius. It's good to see someone like K just going on being a normal person and not tucking his tail between his legs and slinking over to the card table. More people should do that.

> He told K there was a table set separate today and he hoped he would sit there and respect the way they felt. He also told K that he didn't feel like it was right to treat him like normal otherwise and then avoid him at eating.< <br>


Apparently the minister wasn't sold on the idea and would rather not have to deal with it and let it be known that he wasn't the one trying to enforce it. I'd say he's on the right track, just treat everybody normal at all times. What a novel idea! Hey!

This verse that so often gets quoted? ...and if he doesn't hear the church then let him be unto you as a heathen and a publican? We eat with those people so what's the difference?

Am I actually expecting an answer that makes sense and validates avoidance in the way the H practice it?

Stories connect us to the reality of our experience. Without a story in the script, we can hold the writing at bay or claim it without it requiring anything of us. But we have to receive a story. It tells us of life. One learns more by a story than by a scholarly text book kind of learning. A story gets into the heart and soul of our existence. A text book exercises our mind. Of course we have to begin in the text books because as a child our stories are limited. At the very early stages, they're hardly even our own stories because we are carried where we don't know. But our life should eventually start building stories by which we can reflect on that experience and see how it measures up against our childhood training. But the stories have to be our own. They can't be the stories of others we reflect on to make adjustments in our childhood training. This don't say we can't observe the stories of others to learn more about our own stories.

Brent

Brent, I like your description a lot. To me the first part was like telling how the the Old Testament laws where like 'Scholarly Books' and how Jesus told stories and parables to get to people hearts. There are a lot of Spiritual lessons in this writing  it reminded me of the verse that tells of how the laws are written on our hearts and how our hearts are pierced.

The Scholarly Old Testament never did it for anyone. That's why Jesus came, he told a story He became the story and broke the law book.

 

And does "know not to eat with this man" mean taking communion with them or every actual daily meal?

This verse that so often gets quoted? ...and if he doesn't hear the church then let him be unto you as a heathen and a publican?

So your answer should be, do you eat with any heathen or do you welcome them into your home and treat them kindly to try to influence them to become a better person.

I wonder how many converts a church would have if every non believer would be required to sit at separate tables and shunned. What a novel witnessing idea!!! I bet we could bring the heathen in by the droves.

Shunning is NOT treating them as heathen. It is treating them worse than dogs. Look how Jesus treated the heathen man named Zaccheas. (sp?) First thing he wanted to do is go eat with him. Hmmmmm I'll follow Jesus example over man's convoluted distortion of scripture.

"and how our hearts are pierced."

Paris,

There isn't nothing like a story that gets to the heart of the matter.

That's why we should go live a story. It shows us so much about ourselves.

Without stretching our experience, we can make our little world say and claim anything, but that's all the further it will ever go. One has to go out and live beyond their border where they're a stranger so to speak - let a different world try them, let them hear different things, see different thing.

This is what I mean about the difference between scholarship and a story. When we are studying, we can stay in our safe world. But when we go make our story, we have to leave and go live it. We have to experience what we studied.

Brent

Cupcake, You have been hit as victim again, isn't it amazing. I don't know what's going on but that ain't the only place it is. 2 yrs ago a minister's daughter married the son of a man that is D&R that is a member, his wife has never joined. at that wedding we along with Amos and his wife and another man that has been out for years who was also seated with his wife, were placed at the table with the rest of the good folks. a couple months later our own son was getting married and we knew they would pitch a fit about us sitting at the brides table but we had about 150 outsiders coming and we told them straight that if it was obvious that we were sat aside and shunned that it would not look good at all. LM actually told them that we would leave before the reception if that was the way it was. We had just been to another wedding with an exed dad and there they had a table that was the same width as the brides table that they sat beside it with that splitting hairs gap but it looked like it was just an extension to a too short table and no one but those that knew what was happening would have known it. We said why can't we do this here too. NO GO. When we said that we had been sat with the others at the last wedding the minister goes and asks the usher, who lies(the usher is now a missionary how convinient) and said that we just sat where we wanted to. Like RIght, we have never done that in 14 yrs, why should we start now. It was a horrible confrontation that ruined a beautiful time. So fast forward to last month. I attended another H wedding by myself, LM was elsewhere occupied. I stopped by my bil and asked can I sit somewhere beside by myself with 2 guys unrelated to me. He says sure you can sit right here we have lots of tables. That's when the usher walks up and says to me. "LL you just sit right here with these ladies."
Go figure I think they just don't know what to do with themselves and do stuff on a whim and never understand that they are the ones that are creating all the confusion that causes all the X's to go haywire like they accuse them of.
by the way I had a great visit with those ladies.

<<< That's why we should go live a story. It shows us so much about ourselves. >>>

Brent, this is what Chris McCandles did in the story "Into the Wild". I was notv critical of Chris although many were. Chris dispensed with the scholarship and lived his story. Everything has a time and place. There is a time to reap and sow, laugh and cry, study and create your story. To always view the world through a comparative lense will reduce its richness. All things are not zero-sum...but then again, what could I possibly know, beings that I'm a man with an "unproven, common" life. LOL!

<<< Go figure I think they just don't know what to do with themselves and do stuff on a whim and never understand that they are the ones that are creating all the confusion that causes all the X's to go haywire like they accuse them of. >>>

LL, what you say has truth, but it is a sad truth predicated on the emotional/spiritual weakness inherent in most H (either ex or current members). Just because we get the #12 double D slapped to our behinds doesn't mean we are suddenly wise. As a side note, are you aware that to get kicked in the butt with a big, black, spiritual clodhopper is called "love"? Hey, if you want to get your PhD. by researching psychological dysfunction, that may be a good place to start. Anyway, lets not quibble about definitions of love at this juncture.

As "expelled", we start out as dumb as they are, but our expulsion is our ticket to freedom. Then we can begin to test, think, question, and grow without fear of that dreaded communistic-flavored reprisal.

So, they are confused. YES! But we can and should get larger than their confusion. To allow their confusion to demand my confusion is the ultimate control, and basically makes them my master. Oh No! "Keep on trucking" as the mud flaps say, and the people that can read it are the ones you see in your rear view mirror. We need largeness of heart, soul, and mind which allows us to disconnect insofar that their confusion does not lead to our own. I know you get all this. And we both know, getting there is a journey and we have to allow ourselves our time.

There is absolutely two separate stages here (and probably many more, but I'm only speaking of two here). One is the validation stage where we bitch, moan, wring our hands, and sit in our own slop. That when well-meaning but ignorant friends tell us to "move on". But we are processing, validating, accepting the reality of the abuse, confusion, insanity, whatever. We do not move on in the validation stage. We can't and we shouldn't. The moving on stage is the good part. Things in your rear view mirror may appear to be closer than they really are. LOL!

If we get on the wrong end of a system or someone's stick, and we do not validate, accept, own, and authenticate the BS that we go through, it likely becomes a nearly uncorrectable problem down the road. The people who say "move on" are actually helping to ensure that true help will never be obtained....and trust me, I believe in moving on.

"" I know you get all this. And we both know, getting there is a journey and we have to allow ourselves our time"" Ain't that the truth.

there are some days I would like to take this journey and say "get off my back, take a Hike," and move to the farthest place on earth from anything remotely related.
Of course that would also mean that there would not be a little brown eyed, white blond baby showing up on my step some morning after a 15 hour overnite ride, in a pale blue and white striped dress covered in dirt, holding a pink petunia, with a big grin on her face, yelling, " HI, Granma."

*Copied from a website.


The Story of the Prodigal Son
One day Jesus told a story that teaches us what we should do
after we have done something wrong.
There was a man who had two sons. One day the younger
son said to his father: "Father, give me my share of all you
have." And the father divided his money between the two
sons.
A few days later the younger son took his money, left his
home, and went into a strange country far away. There he
made new friends and tried to have a very good time. The
friends he chose were bad and taught him to do many evil
things. He lived there for a long time, trying to enjoy himself by
doing many wicked things. At last all the money that
Now the young man found himself alone, hungry, without
friends and without any money. He began to look for work, but
the only kind of work he could find was watching over a herd
of pigs in muddy fields.
Then one day the young man said to himself: "Here I am,
hungry and unhappy. In my father's house there are many
servants who work for him and have plenty to eat. I have
behaved so badly that I am not worthy to be my father's son
anymore. But I can ask him to let me come back to become
one of his servants.
He got up and started on his journey home. He was feeling
very hungry and miserable and thinking all the way how he
would ask for forgiveness from his good father.
He was still a long way off from his home when his father saw
him. The father felt so sorry for his son that he ran out to meet
him. He hugged him and took him home. He did not scold his
son for all the bad things he had done. The son said: "Father,
I have behaved too badly to be called your son!" But instead
of answering him, the father said to the servants: "Bring the
best clothes for my son. Put a ring on his finger and shoes on
his feet. Prepare the very best dinner for us. We shall have a
feast and be happy because my son who was lost is found
again."
When the older son came back from the fields, he heard
music and dancing in the house. He called one of the servants
and asked him what had happened. He learned that they were
feasting because his younger brother had returned home. He
was not pleased. He thought: Had not the younger brother
behaved badly and left his father's house while he, the older
brother, stayed at home like a good son and did all the work?
But when the father heard that the older son did not want to
join them, he came to him and said: "My son, you have always
been with me. All I have is yours too. But today we are glad
because your brother was like one dead, and he is alive
again; he was like one lost, and he is found again."
We are all God's children. When we are bad and do wrong,
we behave like the younger son, who left his father. What
should we do to make things right again? We must come to
our Father and tell Him that we are sorry. Then He will receive
us gladly, just as the father in the story received his son.< <br>


Remember this story was told by Jesus


What in this story would change if it would have happened to day in a Holdeman home?

He would have surely been excommunicated shortly after he left.

His father couldn't have shook his wayward son's hand neither gave him a holy kiss.

Music and dancing would have been against conference rules.

The wayward son would of had to sit at a separate table and shunned.

No ring on his finger.

The older son might have been put on repentance for being offended.



Did God change?


*Leaving podium, sitting down and crossing legs..

Scott, that was just a joke. Hope it was funny to you...yikes, *runs for cover...

: 0

Cupcake: In response to the segregated sitting pushed upon you by a minister. Not totally knowing all the complexities of your situation but I'll venture a quess. The minister that approached you was very likely passing the buck, if you could confront the laity that supposedly had issues about K sitting with everyone else, they in turn will say it was the minister that was insisting on this. Probably a fair share of H struggle with the avoidance issue and how it is practiced, both pro and con but few will actually step up and take personal responsibility for it. I know very well the group think mentality taking place in these situations. Carry on, Cupcake!

Forreal, I know what you mean and in some ways there is no one to blame because, as you say, the buck gets passed, and everyone stays confused. Just in the last couple months here there has been a meeting to reinforce the avoidance doctrine..it's the same verses quoted, the same BD&P statements quoted, the members go home feeling comforted that it's the right thing and they are more comfortable leaving it like it has been instead of researching for themselves. And it all continues as before, some practice it, some don't, some do depending on who's watching or where they are, some don't talk to you, some do as usual, and the exed one continues to not have a clue what the church REALLY believes. Because the belief and the practice don't line up and half are one way and half are the other way and since the church is made up of the people, it just doesn't make sense. If the church wants to have an effective doctrine, either enforce it or don't. We H tend to think that the Amish shunning is harsh, but at least someone knows if they are going to be shunned or not then and aren't left hanging as to if it's gonna happen or not this day or this meal or this conversation.

Now lets sit back and watch as the others, tell the same tired story,,,


Yeah, Paris, old and tired, is that what you think? It sure hasn't stopped you from coming back and reading, though, has it?

Why don't you enlighten us with your young and fresh ideas? Go ahead, Paris, maybe you can help some people who are just trying to find answers.

"Brent, this is what Chris McCandles did in the story "Into the Wild". I was notv critical of Chris although many were. Chris dispensed with the scholarship and lived his story. Everything has a time and place. There is a time to reap and sow, laugh and cry, study and create your story. To always view the world through a comparative lense will reduce its richness. All things are not zero-sum...but then again, what could I possibly know, beings that I'm a man with an "unproven, common" life. LOL!"

Scott,

I don't want no trouble with you, I really don't. And there's nothing to "LOL" about. If I didn't walk away from some of the stuff you write to me and let my passion simmer down {like I did with some of your stuff on this thread}, I'd be a very foolish man for what I could end up saying. Some of it is already edging toward getting bad enough. And I see that too!

So there's something you can honor me for - having the wisdom to cool off before I respond to you. This should put a better light on what I do write to you, and you should consider it very close. I weigh everything I write on this forum, because things tend to stab me in the back.

Brent

Paris,

I see a little bit of a story in your life, and I say it that way because I can't really put my finger on it. But something comes out of the pictures you post of gardens and home and music you post.....a little art maybe? But I believe where I our interest are at, we should try that talent. And it may appear terrible wrong to some people. And as you push your talent it may start feeling wrong to you too because you're not used to what you're doing, but how do you know it's wrong until you've wallowed in it or perfect it?

Well the same goes for religion. We all have to wallow in it. But I think the time is up for the regular writers on the forum, and especially for those that have been on these forums from the very early days of them. It's time to "move on" like you was hinting. This should be a forum by now of our talents and the architecture of our spiritual houses. That's why I go to war on this forum sometimes with my swords flashing.

Also I glad to see you posting a little again. But that brings me to my own part on this forum. I'm about ready to fold in up here. But I've said that before!!!

Brent

Paris,

I see a little bit of a story in your life, and I say it that way because I can't really put my finger on it. But something comes out of the pictures you post of gardens and home and music you post.....a little art maybe? But I believe where I our interest are at, we should try that talent. And it may appear terrible wrong to some people. And as you push your talent it may start feeling wrong to you too because you're not used to what you're doing, but how do you know it's wrong until you've wallowed in it or perfect it?

Thanks Brent, I'll take that as a compliment. I am finding a little art in myself as I get older. I never took the time to explore that side of me. It is amazing how some things challenge us even when we like them something that feels so different has to be worked until it feels OK, even when you like it and it's harmless. I guess that's what change is about taking a risk.

Well the same goes for religion. We all have to wallow in it. But I think the time is up for the regular writers on the forum, and especially for those that have been on these forums from the very early days of them. It's time to "move on" like you was hinting. This should be a forum by now of our talents and the architecture of our spiritual houses. That's why I go to war on this forum sometimes with my swords flashing.

A forum can be made up of a lot of different people and some will or should be new and talk about the old stuff because they never got to before, but yeah the regular writers here should probably have some different stuff to say even if it isn't about religion.

Also I glad to see you posting a little again. But that brings me to my own part on this forum. I'm about ready to fold in up here. But I've said that before!!!

Brent

I've said it before too Brent, interests change but I like reading your posts, they're interesting and funny sometimes the way you express yourself is a one of a kind in many ways, that's a good thing.

Frankly I am a little tired of talking about religion and the Holdeman sure are knee deep in it. If ever was a place to talk about or witness religion it would be in that group.

Christianity is supposed to be a faith not a religion as soon as people realize that they can move on and let faith be an asset to their existence and not a ball and chain.

^ The ball and chain thing is just my opinion, it's just that I'm not doing that way.

A forum can be made up of a lot of different people and some will or should be new and talk about the old stuff because they never got to before






That's an excellent point, Paris. There are probably new readers on here everyday who have left holdemanism and just need to hear what others have gone through and experienced. They need to hear what some of the original forum members have to say. Brent says that the old posters should move on and talk about other things but what he might be forgetting is that the main thrust of this forum is to discuss Holdeman issues. If Brent wants to talk about art and all the roads that he has traveled and how he has figured out what has and hasn't worked for him, that's cool. That is probably a form of therapy for him and he might not even realize it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z4ihUR6hgs