TR or any other H:

Show me a H whose actions clearly make a statement that they believe their "expelled" or "wayward" son/dau/husband/wife/mother/father is headed for ETERNAL torment in HELL FIRE...............



Then I'll show you someone who has left their 2000A farm and new JD tractor, sold the 3000sq ft home, the new Suburban (or is it a Honda Odyessy??), been glad to forsake Sunday potlucks for out-of-state visitors, the priviledge of serving on schoolboard, youth leader, song leader, sacrificed their yearly summer vacation to the Smokies/Rockies/Lake/Ocean, denied themselves the joy of attending the niece/nephew/neighbor boy's wedding 500mi away, stayed home from the district schoolboard meeting, turned down every invitation to the picnics in the park/mountains/rivers.......




ALL because they are devoting their resources towards saving son/daughter/husband/wife/mother/father from eternal torment.


Does your personal life (such as normal sleep patterns), lifestyle, career, activities all point an observer to the TRUTH that you believe a loved one is at the brink of eternal fire and brimstone??


My life does NOT make that statement and therefore I conclude I do not believe in eternal torment.


If you sleep well at night, ANY night, then you don't either.

Or do you find sleep by consoling yourself with the idea that God is just and Jesus brings peace to those who have faith in God and His Church?


(Also, there IS a great difference between "telling" someone about eternal torment and "SAVING" them from eternal torment. Which are you prepared to do?)

Regarding this subject it impressed me if we believe few will be saved and it takes great striving to be spared from hell (as a place of never ending torment), and thus even our own children who we teach properly possibly have a 10 percent chance to be punished endlessly, will we have any desire to bring children into this so evil world? This link speaks much about God's punishment of the ungodly http://www.teachmegod.com/home18b.htm

May God through Christ have mercy on us.

To my understanding there is no record of endless torture in Torah. I'm sure if that was going to be part of the deal God would have made that very clear on Mt. Sinai. God did make it VERY clear that in our human existence we will have "hell" on earth if we eat from the wrong tree. I don't read of the tree of knowledge being in the next realm when we leave our carcass here on the earthly plane. So common sense would indicate it's (hell's) existence is to help us make good choices now, i.e. refiner's fire.

For those who put forward that hell is a temporary place; is there any place in the Bible where "time without end" is clearly identified in connection with punishment? One place could be, Rev. 20:10. Could you explain for us in a couple of sentences, what the words of the Gospels mean when they speak of eternal torment.

TR; we have no obligation to change our belief unless the Bible clearly and explicitly tells us. There are those who believe that the Bible only teaches such as can be grasped by humans. I believe otherwise. I believe that the full existence of God, His mind & attributes, are beyond human comprehension. All mankind understands enough to make us responsible to God, but we fall far short of understanding all about Him.

Hank, you say "God (is) beyond human comprehension."

Believing that your aquaintances/business associates/family members MAY be headed for eternal torment should cause you so much anxiety that you could not enjoy a weekend on the boat.

Or is it because it is uncomprehensible that you are able to ignore the teaming millions headed for a Christ-less grave and eternal fire?

I don't need scriptures. And I know you are invovlved in some sort of ministry. I am trying to understand how your daily life proves your claim.

(And TR's congregation is having "summer meetings" so is unable to respond?)


May "Truth Reign"!!

Then I'll show you someone who has left their 2000A farm and new JD tractor, sold the 3000sq ft home, the new Suburban (or is it a Honda Odyessy??), been glad to forsake Sunday potlucks for out-of-state visitors, the priviledge of serving on schoolboard, youth leader, song leader, sacrificed their yearly summer vacation to the Smokies/Rockies/Lake/Ocean, denied themselves the joy of attending the niece/nephew/neighbor boy's wedding 500mi away, stayed home from the district schoolboard meeting, turned down every invitation to the picnics in the park/mountains/rivers.......

ALL because they are devoting their resources towards saving son/daughter/husband/wife/mother/father from eternal torment.

How would leaving all this aid in saving a son/daughter/husband/wife/mother/father from eternal torment? That part wasn't real clear to me. (supposing, of course, I had that kind of thing to give up in the first place)

If someone choose something besides serving the Lord, despite full opportunity to do so, I can't force them to do otherwise. Selling all I own would do nothing for them. Telling them I was losing sleep over them would do nothing for them. A brother in Sunday School just mentioned this last Sunday, this brother comes from a non-H background, and he was speaking of his own blood brother, who was excommunicated a year or so ago. He said how nothing he can do can force his brother to change his ways, it is his choice. Even Jesus cannot force people to change. Even Jesus was not accepted by every one around Him. Why? Here was the Life directly in front of them, and they could not accept him.

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.


I return a question:

Does Abraham's response to the man's request who was burning in hell appear cold-hearted, indifferent, and cruel to you?

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.



I believe the Lord comforts those who call on His name. I also believe I am willing to do anything it takes to save my house from destruction. When I can do no more in that area of life, I believe I am willing to reach out to those around me as much as God gives direction to do so.

Do I comfort or justify myself because I have the "correct" view on this subject? No. If I did, I could not learn. Besides, I have nothing to justify, when all is said and done. Preach to me, friend. Tell me what I should be doing.

I also should mention, if I do not post for a few days, it is because there is a lot on the plate. I do have a life apart from COG...

Here is how TR demonstrates that he is unable to support his position.

1) He changes the subject of why he is not distressed by everyone going to hell to the totally different subject of whether he can do anything about it. He hopes that since the reader agrees that he cannot force people to do something about their own salvation, that the reader will unwittingly also agree that it is ok that he is not distressed about it. This ploy depends upon a certain "momentum" of reader agreement, and the reader not being aware that the topic has been changed.

2) And this is the big one. TR should be more distressed by the horrible loss of humanity because he can't do anything about it rather than less distressed. The truth is exactly the opposite of TR's evasion. Fact is, it is the the things that we CANNOT do anything about that distress us the most. It is the things we CAN do something about that distress us the least.

Scott:

Good analysis of TR's 'logic'. I had similar thoughts about it myself.

The thing is, even if there is nothing that TR can do about his family members, what about the billions of people (i.e. the remaining 99.9997% of the world's population besides the 0.0003% that are part of the Holdechurch) who are 'lost' or at least in grave danger of being 'lost'?

Does living in rural or small town North America, in relative affluence and leisure, paying one's monthly quota to the 'mission board' truly reflect a belief that most of the world is headed to the big barbecue donwstairs?

If it does, that says something rather disturbing about TR and his co-religionists: They are worried mainly about saving their own butts through living a life of 'self-denial' (of what, exactly, we're not really sure anymore), in their self-imposed social and cultural 'virtual' ghettos, and to hell, (literally, in this case), with everyone else.

Nope - TR does not believe in eternal torment, or if he does, he is as much a monster as the deity he claims to worship.

Mt 25:41* Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

New translation:

Mt 25:41* Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into limited duration, purgatory fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

ya right, console yourselves fellas, but don't be surprised if you just ain't right.

I think you guys that are contending on this matter of eternal torment still fear your own religion. That's the only conclusion I can come to.

Brent

Re-reading the first post seems to put forward a different subject then "eternal punishment", but since we are here I'll respond.

1. I believe the best and and really the only way to debate hell as eternal or temporary is to look for the answer from scripture. (Amos takes this approach.) It is impossible to answer this question from our own intellect because it is the Word of God that is the final authority on Christian doctrine... not what man contrives.

2. If one says that those who believe in eternal hell ought to spend day and night convincing others of the gospel, then they are also saying that to believe in a "temporary hell" relieves a believer of heeding the words of Jesus; "Go into all the world... preach... baptize..." , or at least reduces one's responsibility . I assume ATL, that you are a believer and I have no reason to believe that you witness, share, live a Christian example or "preach" any less or then I do. The approach that a believer who holds to "eternal separation from God" has a greater responsibility then those who believe otherwise, is flawed.

3. Although I too understand the Bible with reason and intelligence (whatever level it might be), there are too many who present God only on a level they themselves can figure out. God is transcendent to man, meaning that He is incomparable to man; on a total different plane. We do not really have words to describe God. And if we knew everything there was to know about God, He would no longer be held in "awe". (Adam Clark). My view is that the full extent of the justice, love, mercy and fulness of God will not be known till we enter into eternal rest. And no one; and I repeat NO ONE needs to worry that God is/will be unfair in His final judgments.

4. The gospel is "good news" for the world; it is not bad news. Further, it is by the foolish preaching of man (1 Cor. 1:21) that the gospel is spread, but it is God who gives eternal life; it is God who by His grace and mercy gives life and breath and sustains us. Any of our "wisdom" will not change what God has decreed/created and we dare not trust in our own selves to appease God. It is through Christ that God has chosen to personally reveal Himself to the world and He, Christ, is the Bridge that connects mankind to God.

Hank, you use "God's incomprehensibility" like a spiritual condom. You are in way over your head with this. Either get do some real study and become intellectually honest or be quiet on the matter. It seems as though your theology hangs on three words, meritorious, vicarious, and incomprehensibility. Do you wish me to put chords to those words. Are they favorites because of the way they dangle on the tongue? I do understand that you offer yourself like a gentle, caring, magnanimous, wise old owl to abused street girls (that is your calling and I'm glad your doing it), but don't use success and aptitude there to extrapolate beyond your scope. And if there is one thing that your scope does NOT include, it is thinking your way past the fog of tradition. Hank, it just is not in you. Its ok. Its not in very many. Granted, you don't buy OTVC, but your thinking is the same type and flavor as the the holdies. If you want to try be intellectually honest FOR ONCE, then write a scholarly rebuttal to Amos's essay on this subject and stop re-presenting your worn-out theories as if you are not even aware that there is serious scholarship that refutes you.

...btw, if you want to employ as an argument, how could so many christians have been mistaken for 2000 years, then don't pick and choose, but be true to that ideal, and go join the Catholic Church.

Scott; you have your own blind side as well. June 10, 8:09 AM, in reply to TR you say "... distressed by EVERYONE going to hell..." You are so caught in your own beliefs that you exaggerate without even realizing it. You know very well that TR does not believe everyone is going to hell !

Hank,
Be honest!

According to TR's doctrine and belief YOU my friend are headed for the spit of the rotisserie to be charbroiled in the eternal barbecue.

As TR cheerfully sings "In the sweet by and by"...the, "we shall meet on the beautiful shore" does NOT include you.

Mark; I realize that TR may not have all things the way I understand them, but if you/he will check article 28 of the 33 ( As a teenager, I cut my H teeth on these explanations of our faith) you may note that I have been put out of their "communion of saints"; but am not necessarily outside of "the church outside of which there is no salvation". There is a distinction between these entities, also noted in article 18 of the 33.

It is my prayer that our H friends will get to see the error of their understanding ( the understanding that the ideologues of CGCM have put forward in their writings). They should note that the church is made up of all believers, and that the Christian community gathers in the "communion of saints".

Where H get it right is that they teach that salvation is found "outside of CGCM" ( but here we differ) and then believers are brought into what they call "the church at the exclusion of all others". To repeat, where they have missed the mark is that they overlook the fact that the Anabaptists taught that there is NO SALVATION outside of the church.

Regardless what anyone or any group of individuals may say about you or me; our salvation is secure only by faith in Jesus Christ. It is by faith, unworthy as I am, that I claim the merits of Christ's vicarious sacrifice at Calvary for eternal life.

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all..." 1 Tim. 2:5-6 p

ok, now you want to buy some time by forcing me to clarify that I know that the Holdies don't believe EVERYONE is going to hell. Ok, lets get technical. 99.9% is not everyone. Ok, now can we get on to the substance of the argument? Are you happy now? Sheesh. Its like dealing with a small child. Hank, start with this. In clear technical terms, refute point by point the evidence that Amos presents in his essay.

This is a quote from Amos' study on eternal punishment...
Both worms and fire, are a devouring and consuming power. Worms can devour and consume a dead body amazingly fast. Dead corpses can be completely filled and overflowing with these worms and soon be devoured by them. A fire obviously can devour and consume things even more quickly than worms. Worms and fire can very much be used to represent an utter consumption and destruction. Prophet Isaiah spoke of the dead carcasses of the wicked in connection with worms that couldn't be killed and fire that couldn't be quenched (Isa 66:24). Jesus speaking of the punishment of the wicked, also spoke of never dying worms and an unquenchable fire, and possibly was thinking of Isaiah's similar statement (Mark 9:44-48). cF-3:2
Although Jesus' special warning of a punishment where the "worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" very much could be understood to be speaking of a never ending fiery punishment, yet it does not necessarily need to mean such. Such a statement about unquenchable worms and fire could also be emphasizing an all consuming punishment which is unwavering and certain and where consuming forces cannot be quenched but rather will unceasingly continue until they have fully done their God sent work. cF-3:3

I would like to say that I believe Amos' conclusion is right on. I would also like to remind any reader that two of our most quoted scriptures will have to be rewritten if we insist on the fires of hell being eternal in time rather in their effect. In other words, if you are completely destroyed by fire, the effect is eternal. It does not have to be a measure of time to be eternal.

Now, the two verses, "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life." You must rewrite this to "the wages of sin is eternal life in hell, but the gift of God is eternal life in heaven."

The other one is "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not PERISH, but have everlasting life." You have to rewrite that one somehow to eliminate the word PERISH, since something in a consuming fire PERISHES!

Malachi 4 talks about becoming "stubble," and verse 3 says the wicked will be "ashes." Someone with eternal life in hell would not become ashes.

Scott, your post from 7:41 was one of the most arrogant, obnoxious writings I have seen. You have really stooped. Are your beliefs on such shaky ground that you need to go out on the offensive against Hank to make yourself feel superior? I don't GET it. You may have an astute mind, but your life's a wreck, you have no ability to put your thoughts to practical successful use. Yet you lecture a successful, happy Christian family man and (try to) make fun of him. Acting like you have it together and he doesn't.

Truly incomprehensible.

MonteMan, your astuteness astounds me.

For starters, you as a Holdeman member give Hank an assurance that even tho he's expelled, he is a Successful, Happy, Christian, family man. I'm glad you, as a Holdeman church member, recognise that there is Salvation after excommunication. I hope all the expelled H reading this forum took note of that. Its refreshing. Hank specifically, you are officially given the right hand of fellowship once again.

One question, MonteMan, (since I started this thread) what in the world does someones's wrecked life vs another's perfect life have to do with my original question, that of HOW does YOUR life confirm YOUR belief in eternal torment??

It wasn't about who believes in eternal torment, or supporting that belief by scripture. Not at all! But like Steven's comment:

Does living in rural or small town North America, in relative affluence and leisure, paying one's monthly quota to the 'mission board' truly reflect a belief that most of the world is headed to the big barbecue donwstairs?

That's the question....
Can you answer that please, MonteMan? TR? Xep? Herb? RM? TravelingMan? Forreal?

Does living in rural or small town North America, in relative affluence and leisure, paying one's monthly quota to the 'mission board' truly reflect a belief that most of the world is headed to the big barbecue donwstairs?

That could apply to any denomination. But to be a successful missionary, you have to be called or annointed by God. Not everyone is. Paul had people who supported him in his traveling. calledoutPTL

I'm with you on that Calledout.

A.T.L. was trying to get some honesty coming in from some of the Orthodox.
There's the Greek Orthdox Church and there's the Polish and Penn. Dutch Orthodox Church.

A.T.L that's a large load to bring in from the Orthodox realms but I'm listening. I'm interested! You will likely see the reels of the hard drive just a spinning. I like the no spin zones, although I am capable of running on hard drive too. Hey!

Does living in rural or small town North America, in relative affluence and leisure, paying one's monthly quota to the 'mission board' truly reflect a belief that most of the world is headed to the big barbecue donwstairs?

That is a thought provoking question. One that probably does not have a satisactory answer.  But the same could have been asked of Jesus too I guess. His ministry was 3 yrs. God offers redemption to all who come to him, but he won't force us. He won't marry a bride who doesn't choose to love him. So as much as I would love for all men to come to repentance and find forgiveness of sins, I know I can't force it on others either. But your question reminds me that I can't let apathy set in.

I am saddened by the mocking tones of those who keep speaking of it in lighthearted ways like "the big barbeque" etc.  It will be no joke when it becomes reality. 

 

I have a couple questions for you AT Loewen....

1. In your view.... what are the eternal consequences for me if I am wrong about Hell, and you are right?

2.What are the eternal consequences for you if you are wrong?

>>I have a couple questions for you AT Loewen....

1. In your view.... what are the eternal consequences for me if I am wrong about Hell, and you are right?

2.What are the eternal consequences for you if you are wrong?< <br>



Xep, you are making the assumption that just because someone does not believe in eternal torment that they then take the liberty of living an ungodly life. You can love God and choose to follow Him out of love rather than fear. Not believing in eternal damnation does not necessarily mean that one lives a godless and ribald life.

>>Xep, you are making the assumption that just because someone does not believe in eternal torment that they then take the liberty of living an ungodly life. You can love God and choose to follow Him out of love rather than fear. Not believing in eternal damnation does not necessarily mean that one lives a godless and ribald life.< <br>

ML: As I woke this morning, the words of the following hymn were running through my mind.

My God, I love thee; not because
I hope for heaven thereby,
nor yet because who love thee not
are lost eternally.

Thou, O Lord Jesus, thou didst me
upon the cross embrace;
for me didst bear the nails and spear,
and manifold disgrace,

And griefs and torments numberless,
and sweat of agony;
yea, death itself; and all for me
who was thine enemy.

Then why, O blessed Jesus Christ,
should I not love thee well,
not for the sake of winning heaven,
nor any fear of hell;

not with the hope of gaining aught,
not seeking a reward;
but as thyself hast loved me,
O ever loving Lord!

So would I love thee, dearest Lord,
and in thy praise will sing,
solely because thou art my God
and my most loving King.

Words: Latin, seventeenth century;
translated by Edward Caswall, 1849

Then I sit down in front of the computer and read your post. Talk about a coincidence...

>>MonteMan, your astuteness astounds me.< <br>
A.T., you and I both. I think he's going to be accountable for some things he says. I can never understand people who proclaim to be Christians and even have the ONE TRUE TRUTH, and seem to feel that validates their right to be nasty. It's like they think "I'm right, my way is right, the way I think is right, so that means I can say what I want and it's ok because I'M a better person than you." People like MM are SO a drawing..makes me want to run right back and tuck myself under the caring wings of the church.

Monteman has never claimed to be a Christian, as far as I can tell. The only posts he has ever left on this forum have been to be scathing of Scott. I"m sure Scott can take care of himself, but don't lose sight of monteman's real purpose.

Zepp;

My opinion Zepp is this; indeed one's belief about such matters that are being discussed here does effect why one would serve God.

Those who dogmatically believe in eternal torment rather than believing that the torment and pain is redemptive in nature, in my observation after many years of ministry is that these nearly always are serving their God out of fear. I say nearly always, but it may be always. There are those who are not dogmatic but have accepted eternal torture or toment as a truth, who do serve God out of Love. The dogmatism, speaks of the fear!!

So with your view of eternal torture or torment Zepp, you may serve but your predisposition will be to serve out of fear. So where does that leave you? Well, since restoration of the whole person is the message of Jesus you may experience very little actual restoration or very little active salvation! You may be at peace with your ideas while His salvation in you maybe almost non-active. That's for you to decide and work out.

He who seeks to preserve his life will lose it, Jesus said. Those who serve God out of fear are always in the process of seeking to preserve themselves! It's inarguable that this is so.

Those who humbly serve God from Love alone, are those who ultimately experience a fuller restoration! This person's salvation is an active salvation! An active salvation is a glorious thing!

On the far end of the thing, a man or woman may simply disbelieve in God and in His corrective redemptiveness altogether. This is the full license for sin and yet some of these live moral lives. You see it's not about a moral life, it is actually about the reception of His eternal life by faith through grace! Now He lives His Life in and through us as we Love him! It is now no longer we who lives but He who lives IN us!

ML, you said:

Xep, you are making the assumption that just because someone does not believe in eternal torment that they then take the liberty of living an ungodly life."


That statement appears to me to have some assumption in it. I am quite aware that someone can live a moral life (it can also be termed godly by those that say they believe in God) without actually believing in eternal torment. That is an argument many atheists make as well to justify their stand. We need a better foundation than a moral life, although we are definitely taught that a moral life WILL accompany a solid foundation.


Assuming here that Xep was not in fact making any assumptions, but seeking an objective response, I would still like to hear AT's response his question.


In response to Steve's/A.T.'s question:

"Does living in rural or small town North America, in relative affluence and leisure, paying one's monthly quota to the 'mission board' truly reflect a belief that most of the world is headed to the big barbecue donwstairs?"

It really doesn't make any difference what we say we do or don't believe in, it is what it is. If heaven or hell is real, then how I live will have absolutely no effect on their existence. However, it would make a huge difference on mine. So the backwards logic of justification by man's reasoning appears flawed to me. We need a better way to come to a conclusion then using our own reasoning.

I do agree that we tend to become more complacent then we ought to be, and as a result, we don't always hear the Holy Spirit when He gives us a task to do. I am guilty of that. I don't feel justified against your accusation, I only feel my weakness, and a desire to be victorious.

>>>>It really doesn't make any difference what we say we do or don't believe in, it is what it is. If heaven or hell is real, then how I live will have absolutely no effect on their existence. However, it would make a huge difference on mine. So the backwards logic of justification by man's reasoning appears flawed to me. We need a better way to come to a conclusion then using our own reasoning.

I do agree that we tend to become more complacent then we ought to be, and as a result, we don't always hear the Holy Spirit when He gives us a task to do. I am guilty of that. I don't feel justified against your accusation, I only feel my weakness, and a desire to be victorious.>>>>

Amen from the Hallelujah Corner!!! Forreal

Move over in the Hallelujah corner, Forreal. Can we raise our hands in praise and worship of the almighty? calledoutPTL

Calledouts: Fine with me as long as you wear your underarm deodorant!! LOL

Of course, it will be "Secret"! LOL calledoutPTL

IF WE ARE COMPLACENT IT IS BECAUSE WE ARE LUKEWARM. WE ARE LUKEWARM BECAUSE WE ARE NOT FILLED WITH HIS SPIRIT!

WE MAY BE FORGIVEN BUT NOT BE FILLED. TO BE FORGIVEN IS SOMETHING LESS THAN TO BE FILLED!

WHAT MEN AND WOMEN NEED IS THE BAPTISM OF GOD'S LOVE! SOME OF US HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THE REALITY OF THIS VERY IMPORTANT PART OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST!

TO BE FILLED WE MUST ASK FOR THE BAPTISM OF LOVE OR THE BAPTISM OF HIS SPIRIT! IN TIME HE WILL FILL US IF WE CONTINUE HUMBLY TO ASK. A DEEP DEEP FORM OF ACTUAL HUMILTY IS REQUIRED TO RECEIVE THIS BAPTISM. EFFORTS TO BE HUMBLE DOES NOT BEGIN TO MOVE GOD! A CONTRITE HEART HE WILL NOT REJECT!

YOU HAVE NOT BECAUSE YOU ASK NOT, IT SAYS.

Doug, I agree with you except for the fourth paragraph. Maybe you could expound a little on it. You made it sound like a works effort, true humilty. When do you realize you are humble enough to recieve it? When a person considers themselves humble, they aren't anymore. I didn't consider myself humble when I recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit, but I did ask for it. For some it happens when they are forgiven and others later on. I agree that it is two expereinces. Some are filled with it and don't even realize it. calledoutPTL

calledout;

My point in that statement was this; I have never seen God baptize anyone with His Spirit and His Love who thought he or she had it together. It is not when [we] think we are humble or when we try to reach humility or when we make efforts to be humble, it is when God sees we are indeed humble and receptive before Him at heart level that He baptizes us with His supernatural Love! This then is the actual brotherhood of Christ! For by one Spirit are we baptized into one body!

God knows that moment of humility and expectancy, precisely! Until then it is we ourselves that's in the way! I say it this way, our Spiritual pipes are still clogged til then.

The sectarian ways of making efforts to be humble before God is one sure way to clog the Spiritual pipes! Our good and religious efforts are merely more of us and our problem, and that's just more sludge in the Spiritual pipes! Being humble is never the goal the goal is Christ Jesus and realizing our nothingness without Him.

Excuse me...two people, both claim to be filled by the Spirit of God, and they can't even agree how, what, or where it happens. If being "filled" doesn't clear up how this happens, then what would? This is confusing BS to put it mildly. If two people, both filled to the brim by an outpouring of God's Holy Spirit still can't agree on this, then it is no wonder that non-filled, religious people quibble about beards and head coverings. And of course, the exclusive ones, looking on with patronizing contempt at the lack of agreement in the "full gospel" crowd, believe it proves they are "right" that there really is no "second work of grace"....and on and on and on the endless religious contention goes.

So Scott, you're just now beginning to see the problem? What are you going to do with all the past criticism towards those who were enduring their knowledge with no way to get it across.

And do you see now why it's important to not receive or give honor before you understand religious and human nature?

Brent

Calledout, please don't be argumentive on details. I think I understood you in that you were moving off and away from arriving at a false sense of humility. I'm with you in that. Let's agree on the important thing.

There is much to be said for humility and receptivity toward God! Arrogance will not take us far. Unbelief will cut us even shorter.

Everyone who believes in the baptism of God's Love, agrees about the humility and receptivity that's required to receive this gift from God, the rest of the detail is not that important. This baptism is not falsely religious and yet to disqualify the immersion into God's Love, we may call this glorious baptism [distainfully religious]. This baptism or immersion into God's redeeming and life-altering Love is not a falsely religious thing!

The background from which we've come is revealed when we place value on premature and absolute agreement. That thing plagues people. Early conditioning will certainly do this type thing to us. That issue is about one half of the problem with our sectarian background, as Scott alluded to. This type conditioning is basic to exclusivity. With that problem in our background we may continue to be frustrated. I see the frustration.

The word [religious] is not a distainful concept so long as the thing is spiraling men and women upward in quality! Boyo, boyo! How we tend to hide behind the denigration of certain terms.

Many good and glorious things historically have been carried in the container of what is known as religion. In His love, God started somewhere with our feeble selves.

If we say we cannot see the spiral, well we simply cannot see it. We are speaking of our inability to see the spiral; we are not speaking of the facts.

I love you more than words can say! doug

p.s. On this very important point I do not think Calledout and I have any disagreement. I'm at rest about it; so Calledout, speak to us.

Doug, Thanks for expounding a little more on the subject. I can agree, put that way. What I do know that there is not a cookie mold when God works in a person, unique and refreshing for everyone. And I love to hear their testimonies.

I can learn from someone even if I don't agree with them on everything. I know what God did in our lives when we made him King of kings, will be different then for others. Everyone is at different levels in this journey of ours. I expect when I quit learning, I'll be with the King of Kings. When God delivered us from the OTVC doctrine, He also delivered us from fear of ministers and of what men think. calledoutPTL

Thumbs-up my friend. Personal and real testimonies are very important, they help the person get over the top!

Things of living Faith are a whole lot different than things of science. Things of the heart are a whole different than the things of the mind.

Our central and living issue is our Hope, this keeps the light in our eye and the spring in our step! Is this a hope of heaven someday? No, it is a living article within the bosom of those who are born of God's Spirit!

Only by arriving at the fullness of the stature of Christ Jesus will those of Faith agree. [That's what it says]. So if we're wise we do [not] emphasize agreement, we emphasize Christ Jesus and His gift to us! We emphasize the unity that is in Faith itself! This is the unity of the Faith!

Those sectarian groups that emphasize agreement in belief and call this agreement [their faith], immediately become exclusive in nature! Happens every time. Who needs that? All the while these groups admit that they do [not] walk in the fullness of the stature of Christ Jesus. We dare not make mandatory or emphasize agreement in the matters of belief! What would that be all about anyway? My my!

So when others rag us about not having agreement, we say yes indeed you're accurate. We make no apology for that. What we do agree on is our Living Hope and our Living Faith! We're very joyful about this! If you could beat us down we pop back up because of our Living Hope and our Living Faith! This historically is our actual heritage in Christ!

"So when others rag us about not having agreement, we say yes indeed you're accurate. We make no apology for that. What we do agree on is our Living Hope and our Living Faith! We're very joyful about this! If you could beat us down we pop back up because of our Living Hope and our Living Faith! This historically is our actual heritage in Christ!"

Doug,

It's not about ragging on you and beating you down. It's about trying what you present and espouses to the world. When this happens, it is one of two things. You have proven what you espouse and will continue to live it, or you're foolish and can't receive anything. If you don't know this, it suggest the latter.

Brent

Universal orthodoxy is enriched by every new discovery of truth: what at first appeared universal, by wishing to stand still, sooner or later becomes a sect. - Edgar Quinet (French historian, 1803-1875)

Just read what TR said:

"If someone choose something besides serving the Lord, despite full opportunity to do so,"

TR, Let me ask you... Explain this statement to me. I sort of read it after growing up in Monte and then being a member of MB church, which the two churches are more alike than different, as: If someone doesen't pick our way and decides not to follow the ways of our church, after they know what we think and do even though they will be excommunicated,

Is that what you meant to say?

Brent;

If you're large enough to put the Gospel of Jesus on trial you're quite large. The Gospel of Jesus was being discussed. Christ's Gospel is something that I have not heard you preach or expound on. Would you tell us why?

No one here has claimed to be living the Gospel out in all fullness, so your trial of this cannot personal.

Gene; that was abolutely on the nail head. Initially no one sets out to be sectarian, I am sure about that. Sectarianism is a danger for all of us.

<<< "So when others rag us about not having agreement, we say yes indeed you're accurate. We make no apology for that. What we do agree on is our Living Hope and our Living Faith! We're very joyful about this! If you could beat us down we pop back up because of our Living Hope and our Living Faith! This historically is our actual heritage in Christ!" <br>


Doug, there is no other way to say this. The above is a dishonest argument. It is the same type fallacy as arguing that you are the OTVC, and when you get backed in a corner, you fall back to a much lesser position of such as "well...this is the best Church I have found". Trouble is, the "authority" that was associated with the original position never seems to diminish in portion to the lesser position you finally end up taking.

It would be like saying, yes indeed, you are accurate, we are not the OTVC, but still continuing to practice all the BS exclusively predicated on the OTVC such as excommunication, shunning, closed communion, etc.

Doug, to say you are filled with the Holy Spirit whereas other Christians are not is exclusive and what comes next is turf battles and contention. If you have to say it, I don't believe it. If you don't have to say it but your life shows it, I might believe it.

Scott.. the Bible shows us that some Christians were filled with the Holy Spirit and others were not. Being filled or not filled with the Holy Spirit is not exclusive.

Lark, They were only not filled because they had not yet been told about the infilling. Is this not much the same as what the holdeman church uses to justify expelling?

Lark, Your not attending the Quentin Ladies Bible Study today?

Scott;

I don't know the whole reason but you jump right over the most important thing to fault my presentation or what's viewed as my agenda. Likely my presentation is faulty but what I am speaking of is not faulty. My agenda is from a pure heart. Why do you not appreciate what I am actually saying and make it known that you embrace that?

The important thing for all of us so far as the preacher is concerned is the Living Hope and Living Faith of the Gospel! This is why those of us who are called to preach, preach and share! The preacher who has a personal ambition? It is God who will deal with this one.

How would any one receive the Gospel if someone had not already received the Gospel, and then went about preaching it? Jesus had received the Gospel from the Father; He lived the Gospel and He also preached it! To live it only is not the purpose of God!

Live what you live but do not preach to me, is the typical attitude of the arrogant person. Jesus was not crucified because He lived the Gospel, He was crucified because He would not settle down and stop preaching! To preach the Gospel does not set well on arrogant hearts. The Gospel goes cross-threaded with arrogance. They in the city wondered; who is this simple but asertive man from the country town of Nasareth who preaches this Gospel to us?

I believe the issue you pose Scott is with the foolishness of preaching. Take that up with God. It is He who has chosen for those who have received the Gospel, to preach the Gospel. It's an arrogant and competive heart that cannot receive from another man or woman. If we have humbly received the Gospel at heart level, all we can say when we hear it again is this, that's good, that's good! The type arrogance that cannot receive the Gospel from those who have experienced the Gospel, is a type pride that will not allow mankind to receive. Once again this reveals the foolishness of preaching.

The effective [foolishness of preaching] can only speak into humble receptivity and never into competition! The competitive ones may say; go live it, don't preach the Gospel to me.

This is the type arrogance that sectarian groups foster and and fill the air around them with. Jerusalem was full of this atmosphere. [All of us] who come from sectarian backgrounds do well to deal with this particular type of arrogance and do it before God, because we are sure to have brought it with us. This type arrogance is built right into the doctrinal positions and fabric of exclusive sectarianisms. Once we leave the sectarian realms this arrogance distils down into us and it becomes personal. We become as unteachable as are the sects that we hail from. I believe only God himself can rid us of this! We praise Him for this!

That will do Doug. I've seen enough!

Vine,

I pretty much meant it exactly as I stated it. With or without CGCM, that is my stand.

TR, Fair enough. That was a mean way to state it, what I said.
I'm listening. Explain what you said to me.

"If someone choose something besides serving the Lord, despite full opportunity to do so, I can't force them to do otherwise."

This simply meant that if someone chooses to live a life that is not pleasing to the Lord, and that choice was made despite sufficient opportunity to serve Him, it is not realistic to think that I can force a change of their mind.

For one example, I have a friend like this. I'm not going to go in to details on this forum, but for a quick summary: when you talk to him, his intentions are always good, he just believes that somehow in every thing there is a purpose, which seems to always include at least some of his sins (and I'm not talking about not wearing black shoes to church, or such like, just FYI). He has no shortage of people praying for him, visiting with him, encouraging him, offering to be there for him to help him through temptations, the list goes on. At the end of the day, his personal denunciation of his old friends and lifestyle, and a commitment to serve the Lord is the only way he will change. He has at numerous times made a "commitment" to serve the Lord, but not so far as to commit to avoiding those things that take him back down. As a result: current status is jail and a broken home that, due to several issues, doesn't look repairable except by a total miracle. A miracle is entirely possible, but I don't think it'll happen without his consent.

I understand that Jesus ate with publicans and sinners. (He "also" ate with the Pharisees). But look at Zacchaeus. He was sincerely searching for a new life, and ready to make a serious commitment to do otherwise. I believe this cry in him for something else, a cry that had no reservations, is the cry that Jesus felt, and why He stopped at the tree.

This is the point we all need to come to, no matter what "title" we have, or what type of reputation we have, or whatever.

Priorities are everything! Without reservations we serve and love God, or He is not Lord at all. This requires a divine work of the Cross in us and no one can force that upon another fellow. In this I am totally with you TR. In such priorities as this, customs and traditions and even the worship of our best candy-stick doctrines loose their glitter.

Customs, traditions, and our candy-stick doctrines do not restore us; He restores us! Our love for the traditions, customs, and candy-stick doctrines reveal our internal dishonesties because these things begin to cover [for] us.

The Gospel itself must be preserved and preached in power! Remaining with the Gospel itself does not cover for us; rather once we freely receive the Gospel, He begins to cover us as a hen covers her brood with her wings.

If we are persecuted for our traditions, customs, and candy-stick doctrines we may be asking for the ridicule but if we are persecuted for the Gospel itself and the preaching of it, i.e. our identification with the death, the burial, and the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, those who ridicule are up against God. That's not a good place to be. Many people historically have carelessly walked into problematic realms because of this.

TR, Thanks. Now we are on the same thoughts "For all that have left..." Now for the other side of your comma. "I can't force them to do otherwise."

Can't that "I" also be a "WE" or "US"...The church congregations and individuals within those congregations spend time trying to "force". Why? See, I see the avoiding teachings by Paul and then the later instruction of going to him in love as a major correction in policy in the early church. A mistake or even a misunderstanding being corrected. Yet the "right" discount the second instructions, for the "right" never make mistakes.

"Brent; If you're large enough to put the Gospel of Jesus on trial you're quite large. The Gospel of Jesus was being discussed. Christ's Gospel is something that I have not heard you preach or expound on. Would you tell us why?"

Doug,

Would you consider something? You have friends on here, or supposed friends, that aren't by any means preaching the Gospel now days, and you honor them, or would, if they came to your defence, which they have recently, when you're in a bind or go silent on me. And besides, the Gospel of Jesus isn't going to be preached the way it has its appearance in religion today.

I agree, we have to try the Gospel. It's one of the things I have tiredless advocated. But one needs to be vigilant that they haven't fell the victim of their own agenda, religion and deception, and called that the trial of the Gospel.

Doug, as for a direct reply to your question. Now days I don't claim anything I haven't proven and live. To often my preaching has been sweet in my mouth to me, but has become bitter later. If I don't have the will or strength to live what I preach, or I become a hypocrite, you should acknowledge my wisdom that I refrain from such dishonor of myself seeing this could be the temple of God I defile.

But Doug, I do preach the Gospel in the sense I believe that a lot of what I write on this forum has spiritual significance. I can't bear a lot of the religion I read on this forum. And I don't even know how to preach doctrine or scriptures anymore in the way religion does it. Are you reading, Doug?

I would a 1000 time more rather practice my religion in a church like Steven does, then be a part of these homespun religion popping up everywhere in the world today. I can't bear them! Everyone of them are governless, unordained, seditious, rebellious, powerless and authorityless. None of them correct or chastise you unless you're a part of them, and then instead of correction, they abuse you and oppress you. And everyone of them are One True in nature. I hate them all with perfect hatred.

Brent

Interesting stuff Brent.

There is a Gospel that has been [tried] and [proven] even from the creation. I can explain that but it takes up some time and space and I will not go there now. Suffice it to say that creation itself and the purpose of it speaks of the intrinsic-ness of Christ's Gospel. A Jewish Messiah born of woman did not invent the Gospel!

The Gospel that can be preached in power are the intrinsic truths in the death, the burial, and the resurrection of Jesus and our identification with these intrinsic truths! Without that it all becomes a trial and error process on our part.

I see the point of trial and error but there are more efficient ways than that method in my opinion. The honest person sometimes cannot overlook the trappings of religion. There's a lot of trappings. Others do overlook these things and find the Pearl by Faith! And still others get all caught up in these trappings and pretty much miss the Pearl of great price!

The more efficient way is this; by Faith in the finished works of Christ we get catapulted on into what might require a life-time of trial and error to reach! Abraham a son of idol worshipers indeed reached Faith by trial and error! Faith [can] be reached that way.

To make an efficient pathway is why I preach His Gospel! It's not always received. Sometimes honest folk do not receive this Gospel. Sometimes it's because of hurtful things in the past that suggest we do better not to trust the message of those of the Gospel. Believe me I understand what those hurts can do, I am as human as anyone.

There is a Pearl of great price to be found among the trappings of religion so long as the Gospel of Christ is preached among all that stuff.

Some men and women simply cannot put up with the trappings of religion and that's understandable. I've come to understand these things more fully.

"There is a Pearl of great price to be found among the trappings of religion so long as the Gospel of Christ is preached among all that stuff."

True Doug, but one must eventually put away childish things, and so much the more true for those that deal in religious and spiritual matters. One expects a buffoon to continue to play the buffoon, but when one's life continues to demonstrate growth, they must grow up and live what they are. Doug, it's no lie, doctrines and commandments and theology and scholarship are only the rudiment things of a spiritual life. Jesus said, do as they say but not as they do. In other words these rudiment things taught in the church governments of the world are good things, but there comes a time when you have to do them. School is over. It is time to enter the labor force. Amen? That's why I think it's seditious to come against these schools. And everything is scriptures backs me up.

And Doug you know by now I talk plain. But I'm soft towards people and my big bark don't mean anything in terms of unjust force or aggression towards them. So with that said, I could probably give your Gospel of Christ some consideration, but as it is, I don't give it no mind. You haven't even begin to show me how your so called "inner Christ" covers all Christ is. I asked you what God did with the bones of Jesus after he died on the cross, and all I got silence. If your "inner Christ" doctrine is all Jesus is, I'm done with it.

Brent