To win men and women to Christ in real terms so they can live their lives by the inner Christ rather than by the knowledge of good and evil can be done, but it must be done by the very nature of our God! Every time this happens it is a divine miracle.
No person comes to the Son unless the Father first draw this person! Humans are much like sheep. We can be led but we do not fare well when we are driven. Improper responses occur over and over when we are driven rather than led. This is how God created us to function. If you drive a man you get a driven man.
We are not like cattle who must be driven or herded to get them moving in a certain direction. Those are efforts of absolute control. This is why the Shepard of the sheep in any local body is admonished not to lord it over the people but rather to lead by example. The pastor rules by leading and example or he absolutely rules in vain.
There will be paraphrased quotes in this piece but since I am not trying to convince anyone against their will, I will try to refrain from quoting chapter and verse. If we are yet fearful, chapter and verse places undo pressure upon us to believe with the mind rather than from the heart. [A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still], this is not a passage of scripture but its true. The efforts to convince against the will are efforts we employ when we deem mankind to be cattle who must be driven rather than as sheep to be led!
Fear tactics, are false tools that an evangelist may use. How do we know the false tools from the true? First of all we know this by what type of turning and repentance this encourages in us. [The proof is in the puddin]. If the preaching of perpetual banishment and torment were viable tools to bring men to true repentance, then that type preaching would do that. This type preaching does not perform nor encourage true repentance. At best the people out of fear will repent, in order to [gain] something. Withdraw yourselves from those who proclaim that [gain] is godliness.
Having falsely repented we may live quite righteous lives although energized by negative fear rather than because we have simply fallen in Love with God through Christ! False repentance produces a false conversion. This person is driven by fear and shame rather than led by Gods Love! For it is the goodness of God that draws men to (true) repentance, parentheses mine.
Whats true actually works. His goodness works! Redemption works! Tough measures of redemption, work! It is all His goodness! Tough redemption is still His Grace and Love at work! There is no variable-ness in Him, nor any shadow of turning!
Jesus the man was becoming a distraction after only three years of ministry and must go away so that [Christ the Lord] could fill all things! Jesus became the first-fruits for many brethren. The physical must be taken out of the way; the distraction must go away so He could fill all things with Himself. In ascending He filled all things it says. It is amazing how we humans get distracted by material and physical things. Some of us are still distracted by a physical Jesus rather than consumed by the inner Christ who has filled us!
Well, no one can drive anyone toward being filled with the Christ! Men and women can be drawn; men and women can be led! The evangelist who uses negative tactics is an evangelist who is quite likely still scared himself and thus uses such measures of control on others. [Men and women can live righteously for the wrong reasons!] The belief and view of God in this evangelist is still energized by his own shame. Whole groups of believers rally around this type of incompleteness and hope for the best.
Our God is redemptive at His core and not willing that any should perish. If we intimately know Him we know this! Our God is Love and our God is Holy! He is completely whole! [Our God is wrathful toward what separates His creation from Him, but He is not wrathful toward His creation!] He loves everyone just as we are but He loves us too much to leave us like we are at any point.
It is our shame that says that He should and must be angry toward His creation! That shame contaminates how we view the scriptures that He has left us! As soon as we find out that a man is fearful and still abiding in shame, evidenced by having a performance in righteousness mindset, we dare not trust his world view nor his view of the scriptures.
Indeed the living God will separate the vile from the clean in mankind! He is altogether redemptive. He wants our full and complete restoration. Every knee shall (contritely) bow! God will force [no one] to do this! Jesus the Christ is this whole when seen for what and who He is! His wholeness is hard to compute by mankind so we tend to compete with it.
The forth man in the fire is the Son of God once the fire gets hot enough! Oh, it has to get hot! Metaphorically the first man is the body, the second man is the soul, the third man is mans spirit but that forth man is the Son of God who is redeeming and delivering the other three! God desires the whole man to be restored beginning with Faith and once this occurs He brings mankind free of the fire! All of mankind ultimately bows, with some it is Spiritual fire that reveals this!
The living God is never challenged by our challenged condition! Who is man to say what exactly God will do with men and women in His redemptive nature and processes? After dying on the Cross, Jesus went into the heart of the earth and preached His gospel of deliverance to all those from Noah to Calvary! Was that too loving a thing to do? So long as our shame and challenged condition places a fog over us, our image of Him cannot be accurate and complete!
We do know this, the cross when experienced destroys our shame and fills us with Faith, Hope, and Love! The greatest of these is Love and that unconditionally! We can live from the abundance of Christ in us (our) hope of Glory! parentheses mine.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 11, 2009 12:38 PM
>>No person comes to the Son unless the Father first draw this person! Humans are much like sheep. We can be lead but we do not fare well when we are driven. Improper responses occur over and over when we are driven rather than lead and drawn. This is how God created us to function. If you drive a man you get a driven man.<
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Ok, it's revival time down at the local Holdeman Mennonite community church. A young man has been sowing some wild oats this past year, partying and drinking, going to some movies, and add in some courtship, or whatever the sins may be. Fear sets in. He has two weeks or less to get all this straightened out. First meeting comes and goes, second meeting,[he's thinking, man, I sure had a lot of fun. What If I get all this straightened up and then go right back to it again? He's weighing it in the balance.]Ok, I better start doing something, I don't want to get expelled. I sure hate all that shunning, besides my folks would be very unhappy. So after church when he gets home he has a prayer. Nothing happens. This is repeated a number of times. Still nothing. Members meeting Sunday afternoon. More meetings, more members meetings. Finally he gets serious, Goes to his room or back behind the barn and pours his heart out to God. God answers his prayer and forgives him.
Question: Did the Father draw him? Did he force God's hand? Was he driven?
Doug, as usual, your post leaves me with questions. You, of course, are not required to respond, but when I read your posts, I'm always left with the idea that there is a lot of true statements surrounding a false agenda. (I know, H are accused of that all the time). So I am posting the questions to feel it out further.
1.Fear tactics, are false tools that an evangelist may use. How do we know the false tools from the true? First of all we know this by what type of turning and repentance this encourages in us. [The proof is in the puddin]. If the preaching of perpetual banishment and torment were viable tools to bring men to true repentance, then that type preaching would do that. This type preaching does not perform nor encourage true repentance.
Here is a Biblical event that immediately came to mind:
Acts 5
1. But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2. And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4. Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11.And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
I am trying to reconcile your above paragraph with this event, noting verse 11. Was a mistake made in the early church here, since it was obviously a fear tactic? Are you proposing your way is better?
Why did Jesus, in one place, repeat this phrase so much? Was He using fear tactics?
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Our God is redemptive at His core and not willing that any should perish.
He wants our full and complete restoration.
I agree with these statements, but disagree with how you are using them to come to some of your conclusions. Here is where it appears to me to be true statements to further a false agenda.
This message has been edited by anaverageh on Jun 10, 2009 8:44 PM This message has been edited by anaverageh on Jun 10, 2009 8:43 PM
If this statement is actually true, then praise the Lord, he is forgiven!
Question: Did the Father draw him? Did he force God's hand? Was he driven?
In response to the question, his decision was likely based on more than one particular direction of influence, but all influences that led him to repentance and forgiveness were a good thing (were they not?). He didn't force God's hand, he only responded to the call.
This message has been edited by anaverageh on Jun 10, 2009 7:19 PM
>>Question: Did the Father draw him? Did he force God's hand? Was he driven?
In response to the question, his decision was likely based on more than one particular direction of influence, but all influences that led him to repentance and forgiveness were a good thing (were they not?). He didn't force God's hand, he only responded to the call.<
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Let's change the story just a little. Suppose the young man, despite all his efforts in trying to find God's forgiveness was unable to do so and it's approaching communion and the ministers give him an ultimatum to have an 'experience' by tomorrow evening or his 'condition' will be brought before the church and possibly exed. Now fear is the controlling factor of whether he continues to be a member or not. Now, what is his motive? The desire to be saved or the desire to stay in the church? If God isn't calling him at this time is he trying to force God?
This is the reason why I am against revivals the way that the H do it.
If this statement is actually true, then praise the Lord, he is forgiven!
I think the basic premise is wrong.
A person is not forgiven when he "feels" forgiven. We are already forgiven...it only becomes personal to you when you believe it to be so.
When I hear of people being manipulated and intentionally driven to an "experience", a "feeling" or any kind of human effort on the physical level to find acceptance with such a loving creator and God is a very revealing statement. To insinuate that you need to be "drawn" is arrogance at it finest.
To imply that he is a on/off God and is whimsical in nature is only revealing a person's own lack of relationship.
The good news is "we are reconciled"! There are no "hoops" to jump through and Praise God "no hoop handlers" required!
TR; if one has been reared under the driving pressures of an incomplete and even false agenda, how would this person be able to make a judgment call on another school of thought which might well be accurate and out of the heart of our redemptive and loving God? Please think about it.
I was reared under that type of thing and I understand the preasures to submit to the agendas. Some may well have left the organization in rebellion but I did not leave that way. By the way, you may be one of my childhood friends; how will I ever know?
The Jews in their religion under the law caused great fear in the people for their natural lives, if one was found committing a severe sin. A somewhat similar error in Christendom actually works against the cause of Christ and His love filling all things by another fearful thing. This is the promise of eternal torment if we do not receive this Christ that I preach to you! Until we actually experience the Cross of Jesus, we are such a dychotomy.
The type [deceptive] agenda mentioned in the New Covenant passages is a fallig away from the premise of the Spirit of Grace, back to a premise and faith in submitting to righteous precepts in order to sustain one's approval by God. We may want to consider reading the first six chapters of Galatians and the small books of John; if we do, lets us do so as though we have never read these books before and with a humble heart.
TR, indeed fear came upon the early church in the display of God's power when the couple lied to the Holy Ghost! There is no record that this fear produced any true and sound repentance, but they were scared. Would that not have scared you TR? It would have me. If I had been a sinner standing by or a felloe believer standing by, I would have been careful not to lie, I can tell you that. I have said nothing that countered that scenario. TR why do you grasp at straws in that way?
TR, the issue here is not fear and shame, those are by-products of the fall in all men and women. The issue here is meeting a true and sound repentance, even a repentance that need not be repented of! Fear causes one to repent falsely i.e. in order to preserve oneself. This person is now falsely converted! This person may do some of the right things but for the wrong reasons! Jesus said this; if a man tries to preserve his life, he will lose it, but if he will lose his life for my sake his life will be preserved!
However, true repentance carries us past all fear and shame. Perfect Love casts out all fear and the [experienced] cross destroys our shame! The efforts to crucify oneself are futile. Religious and Sinful men are used to do this in our lives as was the case with Jesus.
What then triggers true repentance and true conversion? This cannot occur in a man unless Jesus reveals himself to us; in seeing Him we also see ourselves in contrast to how we now see Him; we simply and properly repent from our sin and turn unto Him! This is why we preach Jesus and Him cricified rather than righteous performance. It's simple. Why are we so soon moved away from the simplicity that in Christ Jesus?
TR; if you want we will meet somewhere and place an alter and see which one disintergrates. The two schools would be, a god who is served out of fear and shame or the God who is [shamelessly] served and loved for who He is!
TR; I will need your name and address, you can no longer hide behind a screen-name if we are to meet. I'm just curious why a grown man would not use his name on the forum, but that's a side question.
TR; If there were one person somewhere on the earth, lets say 12 thousand miles over lands and seas who was known to be a sinner, and if anyone of us have even a smigeon of God's Love in us, we would travel over mountain and stream and briars on bear feet without coat to reach this one person! That is the way it would actually be if there is anyone on this forum that believes in eternal torment for the sinner. You see, we say we believe something but our actions never lie! Actions tell the truth, it is words that easily exagerate an issue and speak lies and especially is this so when it comes to religious matters! Let us seek His baptism of Love and then we shall share.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 11, 2009 12:31 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 11, 2009 12:21 PM
GM, the only time I actually had that happen to me, I was actually having some spiritual problems. I believe what they were looking for, and not seeing, and were correct in, was that I had more of a desire to serve my own self, and as a result, was not putting God first in my life. There was nothing wrong with their view. At the time I thought they were being quite judgmental, today I realize they were seeing things as they really were.
But btw, maybe on a slightly different note, then again, maybe not so much, what do you think of this verse:
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Is there absolutely no possibility of this verse applying in the account you mention? If not, why not?
Mark,
A person is not forgiven when he "feels" forgiven. We are already forgiven...it only becomes personal to you when you believe it to be so.
You are only partially right with that statement (another truth mixed in with a false agenda) in that the work of our salvation has already taken place. But it is not applied to our life until we accept it. Take a look at this verse:
Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
It isn't possible to receive something you already have. Besides, if these people whom Paul spoke of already were forgiven, then his preaching to them was pretty much pointless.
To insinuate that you need to be "drawn" is arrogance at it finest.
No, it's not arrogance. It is reality. Denying that we need to be drawn is defying God. That would surely be arrogant.
To imply that he is a on/off God and is whimsical in nature is only revealing a person's own lack of relationship.
Did someone imply that He is an on/off God, and whimsical in nature?
if one has been reared under the driving pressures of an incomplete and even false agenda, how would this person be able to make a judgment call on another school of thought which might well be accurate and out of the heart of our redemptive and loving God? Please think about it.
Because it defies/ignores the teaching of the Word, and man's reasoning becomes the deciding factor. So far, that is what I'm reading from you, but I'm still reading. I am trying to reconcile what you say with Scripture, and that is proving to be a challenge.
By the way, you may be one of my childhood friends; how will I ever know?
I don't really think so.
TR, indeed fear came upon the early church in the display of God's power when the couple lied to the Holy Ghost! There is no record that this fear produced any true and sound repentance, but they were scared. Would that not have scared you TR? It would have me. If I had been a sinner standing by or a felloe believer standing by, I would have been careful not to lie, I can tell you that. I have said nothing that countered that scenario. TR why do you grasp at straws in that way?
Grasp at straws? OOOOOOOOkkkkkkkkkkk.....
Well.... here is what you said: "Fear tactics, are false tools that evangelists may use... ...If the preaching of perpetual banishment and torment were viable tools to bring men to true repentance, then that type preaching would do that."
Exactly what did you mean by "false tools that evangelists may use". To put it more plainly, did Peter use a false tool? And, btw, I think the event would have caused me more thinking then just feebly trying not to lie. It was a stark reminder of how much God hates sin, and a reminder that judgment will fall on those who do not serve the Lord. That is why we are to serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. Not a gripping, paralyzing fear, but with awe, reverence, and faithful obedience. The general tenor of the Scriptures clearly teach this.
TR; if you want we will meet somewhere and place an alter and see which one disintergrates. The two schools would be, a god who is served out of fear and shame or the God who is [shamelessly] served and loved for who He is!
My God brought me out of the pit using both fear and love. I am thankful for both. You are pretending it's an either/or scenario.
TR; I will need your name and address, you can no longer hide behind a screen-name if we are to meet.
You should have it by now.
TR; If there were one person somewhere on the earth, lets say 12 thousand miles over lands and seas who was known to be a sinner, and if anyone of us have even a smigeon of God's Love in us, we would travel over mountain and stream and briars on bear feet without coat to reach this one person! That is the way it would actually be if there is anyone on this forum that believes in eternal torment for the sinner. You see, we say we believe something but our actions never lie! Actions tell the truth,
Doug, if I knew that such an action would actually cause one to repent of his ways and become a child of God, I believe I would do just that. I would not, however, do it just for a show, or just to prove I could. I have a responsibility to raise a family, and right now, money isn't growing on my trees in the back yard.
it is words that easily exagerate an issue and speak lies and especially is this so when it comes to religious matters! Let us seek His baptism of Love and then we shall share.
my thoughts exactly
This message has been edited by anaverageh on Jun 11, 2009 8:48 PM This message has been edited by anaverageh on Jun 11, 2009 8:43 PM
TR, about my two posts back there, that happens hundreds of times in H churches every year. Not saying that there isn't any validity to the urgency to make our peace with God, but the pressure involved to perform? or to 'come to an experience' in a certain time frame just seems wrong to me, all for the sake of 'being ready for communion'. It seems to me that when that happens we are ordering God to bend to our will instead of vise versa.
>Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. <
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I agree and have no problem with this verse. On the other end of the spectrum, the Bible gives warning about false shepherds who do not have the welfare of the flock at heart but are more interested in maintaining control or exercising lordship over others, or who fail to study the Word of God and end up teaching mens commands instead of Gods. So that's the big question, obey them in what? It leaves that open. I just don't think the Bible gives them any room to ask questions about our personal life. But it does put a lot of responsibility on them and I think the H interpret it at least somewhat wrong. I'll explain more on that in the next post.
I am going to post an article that will shed more light on the attitudes and belief of many H people on this verse, especially the part, obey them that have rule over you.
[I had my son scan and post this but it got to be quite a challenge for us as we're new at it. This is the best we could get it]
A MOT article from the 6/3/09. I have no idea who the author is as he didn't sign his name. I hope he won't mind me posting it and us disecting it. I will have some comments tomorrow afternoon.
This message has been edited by GMman1 on Jun 12, 2009 12:11 AM
You guys, if there's no eternal torment, why bother with your religions? I know people that claim very little religion and live more honestly than some of the religious I know. Do you get the opposite reward of eternal torment, and they get nothing for living more honesty?
This religious argument really boils down to religious people trying to get out of punishment too. This eternal torment talk is just a guise for another free ride.
Now don't go off and accuse me of something I don't believe.
You seem like a pretty good type of fellow. I think you are a little fear driven but quite devout. A healthy respectful fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. The Love of God works a soundness of mind in us wherein there is no negative fear at which point we are very respectful toward the inner Christ!
It is quite possible you have more emphasis upon the letter of the Word than you do upon the Spirit of Grace! Nothing replaces the washing of water by the Word of God in the believer's life. To get to the glory of this, our emphasis must be upon the Spirit of Grace rather than upon the letter of the Word! The water out beyond the letter, is what we are encouraged to reach for.
I believe by hearing you that you have mixed the [Spirit of Grace] into your experience of fear and performance. So long as that mixture is in us we will continue the battle of good and evil. We can be fully given over to the Spirit of Grace! Once we are, the battle of good and evil is over and we rest from all our labors! "There remains a rest for the people of God!" consider the first six chapters of Galatians, Hebrews chapter four, and Eph chapter five. There is a washing to be had which comes from beyond these passages. Never should it be the self-application of the letter in the believer's life but always the power innate in the washing of water by the Word of God!
You seem to run on hard-drive quite well but if you could show us your heart more often. What [is] your agenda TR?
As to what you asked a few post up about false tools of evangelism: The negative fear of eternal torment encourages a false repentance i.e. a repentance that occurs in our lives to gain something. Scare them to get them in, keep them scared to keep them in; there is nothing eternal in that! This type thing promotes a life of false conversion i.e. doing many good things but doing them for the wrong reasons.
TR I never know for sure if your questionings are pure or if they are disingenuous in nature. Clue me in. TR did I catch you with your hand in the cookie jar? How true does your heart run? If you're just one of the boys as a believer you will not find it hard to be completely transparent.
TR You have not asked me but if you do I will tell you what my agenda is. You keep refering to [my agenda] as though you already know what it is; please be more humble than that.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 12, 2009 9:05 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 12, 2009 9:05 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 12, 2009 9:02 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 12, 2009 8:52 AM
With the lapse in time in getting back to the Mot article I posted, I kind of lost some of my thoughts on it but, what's with the fear and trembling? Just to write an article for the Messenger?
This whole thing has the group-think mentality like Christian life would be very difficult without the security of the church/people and the dependence on the ministers to lead and tell us how to live and what to believe,etc.
What does he mean, please remember that the laity has nowhere else to turn? How about God and the leading of the Holy Spirit in our own lives? How about standing for Truth and be strong in the Lord himself, and not be so emasculated? Why does all the load have to be on the ministers to walk perfectly before the flock and keep everyone in line?
[If there are needs in the church..] I hear that often, what kind of needs? Is it another way of saying, a lack of spirituality? [,it will largely be because leaders are neglectful in working with members who are not following the Lord.]Why does the blame for everything always need to be put on the ministers? They can't control yours or mine life. How about being responsible for ourselves? We have the Bible, we have prayer and the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us too, don't we?
With these General Conference quotes, it's like the ministers have been on some kind of hiatus and now they need to come back and get down to business. Why is it that it takes the whole of 20,000 people depending on each other to keep everyone spiritual? Why do the ministers at conference time ask, where are the spirit-led people? Is it because everyone is depending the church and the ministers to keep them spiritual?
Just like at the last conference where the ministers feel so inadequate with the technology issues that they felt the need to put themselves on repentance, like the weight is all on their shoulders. If I was an H minister today I believe I would throw up my hands in defeat too.
The Idea that The Holy Ghost, the Spirit that authored the writing of the scriptures. That same Holy Ghost Who moved the Words of Christ to speak the Words "let him be your servant".... To claim that some how the man that is to be my servant has the "rule" over me as a Christian, well that idea is blasphemy, and anyone holding it simply does no know the Holy Spirit, neither is used to walking with Him. And the H that used political pressure to get me to "subject" myself to my servant, well those people, my opinion are worthy of eternal death if anyone is, for it is idolatry and iniquity for it makes God look like an idiot, with a willfully divided authority structure.
The H depends on twisted stolen authority to run it's programs of worship and simply cannot fix it until it puts in the true bible authority meant by scripture. Namely the men in the congregation, over their own families.
The H reminds me of a guy with a big zit on his eye lids. It makes everything it looks at look like a zit. Or a smear of do do on your shirt, everything, and everywhere you go you smell it, but it is on you!
That twisted lying group of idolaters simply take pleasure in destroying family authority that is found in "children obey your fathers", and granting the authority given to said fathers and husbands to men never intended posses it, namely the men the bible calls servants.
Any man that submits to his servant is a lousy ruler, and of necessity dwells in a confusing state of idol worship and unnatural role keeping.
I was speaking of being one of the boys in a metaphorical sense. When I wrote that I was aware that only boys had written on this particular post, although some girls may have been reading.
Brent you do not usually get vulgar on the forum [I appreciate that] but that question about the girls being only for sex was an absolute vulgar one in the sense that it was directed toward married men to the greatest degree. Shame on you my friend and I really mean that! Now don't flare up, just take this on the chin this time. What you do about this exhortation will reveal who you are. "We are an open epistle read of all men,(and women of course)."
The type issue I just exhorted you on, reveals me.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 13, 2009 2:44 PM
There are probably as many or more girls reading on here then boys.
________________
"Brent you do not usually get vulgar on the forum [I appreciate that] but that question about the girls being only for sex was an absolute vulgar one in the sense that it was directed toward married men to the greatest degree. Shame on you my friend and I really mean that! Now don't flare up, just take this on the chin this time. What you do about this exhortation will reveal who you are. "We are an open epistle read of all men,(and women of course).""
Doug,
Don't judge me as though the only right thing for me to do is take it on the chin. There are countless variables for every situation.
Religion is sex. The assumed rights to sex become extremely precarious, perverted, cultish, and abusive under strict and forceful religions, or with religious men.
Doug, if women don't have a spiritual place in the church in the truest sense of all things there, then they have been degraded to a religious or sexual place, or have not yet been converted......which among sincere seekers and believers, the case would be not yet converted. When Paul spoke of woman place in the church, he was not speaking to a converted church but to people he hoped were receivers and believers. He was following the order of things that headship should be first - it should be allowed to prove itself first and take spiritual responsibility and become an example.
When I speak on this matter, I hold women up to a spiritual place, not a religious and sexual place. But believe me, I have not disregarded headship. And BTW, headship is mainly for religious and beginning things, and that for order because no one knows for sure what's going on yet. I see no need for headship in the purest and truest of spiritual things.
<<< Aren't the girls invited? Or are they only for sex? >>>
Brent, your insinuation to Doug is completely unfounded. I guess you are in favor of random, searching-type accusations. Well, perhaps the real problem is that if you wanted sex, you wouldn't invite the girls?
"Brent, your insinuation to Doug is completely unfounded. I guess you are in favor of random, searching-type accusations. Well, perhaps the real problem is that if you wanted sex, you wouldn't invite the girls?"
Scott,
Your insinuation of me is many more times "completely infounded" than mine was of Doug. You can't get anything on me, so you twist the true nature I have and have only desired to my maleness, because the true things I write about religious men and sex, you're guilty of to the core.
There, I have told the truth again and you have lied again.
No Brent, your snide comment to Doug was unjust, unjustified, and just plain ill-bred, and that's all there is to it. It surprised me to see you write that.
"No Brent, your snide comment to Doug was unjust, unjustified, and just plain ill-bred, and that's all there is to it. It surprised me to see you write that."
Scott,
Well even if it was, it was still the truth. I've said things on this forum I shouldn't have said, but nevertheless they were true. You've said things you shouldn't have said, and they were lies. Which is more ill-bred?
You walk a very dangerous road with your mouth. And your attempts to get back at me, shows how wicked the gossip is you sink to and how gullible that can be among its participants.
Now I'm going to go watch a movie, but I'll check in later.
Brent, I have known Doug for a long time. You insinuations that he considers women to be merely sex objects is bull and you owe him an apology. Your comment was both ill-bred and untrue. I only felt obligated to defend him against your false accusation, so don't bother checking back with me. I have it off my chest now, I've cleared my conscience, and this conversation is OVER!
"I only felt obligated to defend him against your false accusation, so don't bother checking back with me. I have it off my chest now, I've cleared my conscience, and this conversation is OVER!"
Scott,
I noticed it right off and was wondering why you was fighting Doug's war.
I'll apologize for saying what I said in such blunt and course terms, but I'm not going to apologized for how I meant it, which is really what the problem is here. Because people have been way more crude and vulgar than I have, including yourself Scott, and been honored for it because it fit the agenda of the debate.
If you push me or want an explanation, I'll show what I meant by starting with: should women get an university education, should they enter business, should they pursue their talents? Because this stuff all point to independence and rebellion, but if overcome, experience for a spiritual life.
Again I'll probably be misunderstood because I don't mince words.
Just let me know if you want to debate my charge. And if I need to apologize further to Doug, I will. But you and Doug, or anyone, is going to have to show me that the bottom line in religion is not that the woman should mostly be an housewife and forgo world experience.
And Doug, here's where I apologize to you for so crudely insinuating the sexual package of being an housewife. And thanks to Scott for him having the ability to correct me. I mean it. Last night I felt bad.
Now Scott, I'll excuse you from this "conversation being over if you want to continue the debate.
To vulgarize a union of holy matrimony that God himself put together is a terrible thing to do and I am not addressing you Brent when I say this. I am addressing the issue at hand. This activity does not denigrate the men nearly so much as it vulgarizes what the woman experiences in a marriage where she is indeed loved and cherished and where Christ is in the very center of the relationship! To call this holy union something akin to being religious or to openly reduce it to it's physical aspects, is absolutely vulgar and is intruding into things unlawful for any human being.
The efforts to reduce Christ-centered marriages to physical things of any kind, is what so many in America are fallen to! Shame on us! I mean, shame on us!
I got around to reading your post this morning and have some questions.
In traditional marriages, which unions are holy?
Which unions did God miss up on?
Or if God puts together a marriage in all his ordained protocols, why does he take them apart?
Or why do some marriages flourish and have more love in them where religion was never prevalent, the vows of these unions being administered by the same minister, in the same church, under the same God as a marriages that are troubled or falls apart.
Those are good questions. I do not have all the answers but I can say a few things.
It was only yesterday that I asked by sister who is a Holdeman Preacher's wife, this question; if you all made allowances for divorce do you think that about half of your marriages would break? She said that she really did not know.
Here's a tidbit; christian marriages [so-called] seem to break as regularly as do those relationships of unbelievers and maybe a little oftener. The problem in [so-called] christian marriages have an added problem that those of unbelievers do not have. The problem is that the standards the one spouse has for the other is much higher in [so-called christian marriages]. I say [so-called] on purpose here for the reason that when men and women have standards for each other [in or out of marriage] that they are walking out a discipline or what I am calling so-called christianity here.
True and real Christianity is spontaneous in nature [without any righteous standards] therefore there are no standards for one another in marriage! Think about it! We actually set one another free in real and true Christianity because there are no standards of behavior in our minds. We walk in the Spirit. The apostle said this; let all who have the Spirit make sure that they walk in the Spirit! If there's just any legalism left in us at all, this paragraph is going to offend us. This does not mean that the true believer does not know what issues in life are not good or expedient for one's brother or sister or for one's self and therefore an exhortation of Love may manifest among friends and loved ones.
The very worst type scenario for marriages is when so-called christians are back-slidden in Spirit. The reason here is that these still have all the standards in them, but not the tolerance that comes by the Spirit! Ponder it.
An incomplete concept surfaces in so-called christianity and among unbelievers, it's this; people will commit to one another and think this is sufficiant whether it is in our out of marraige. That is a very poor pattern of operation. We do much better when we lay all that aside and the commit to our [love] for our spouse. [Love never fails] and if we commit to our love for our spouse, we're home-free.
If we commit to our love for our spouse and walk in the Spirit of the Lord, we have great fun together! He sanctifies and blesses the relationship when these qualities are in us! Our prayers are not hindered now and God does great things in our families!
The part of a human being's heart that loves his or her spouse is extreemly close to that part of us that loves God. If that area of our hearts gets messy toward our spouse, our prayers are extreemly hindered. Our fellowship with God is hindered!
Hey men; commit to your love and likewise you ladies!
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 16, 2009 8:50 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 16, 2009 8:42 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 16, 2009 8:40 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 16, 2009 8:37 AM
I would believe that all marriages have the potential to succeed or fail, just like anything else in life. IN all honesty I think that God created us humans as a being of choice. We have the ability to choose right from wrong. We also have built in defense mechanisms that serve to protect us in times of abuse, severe trial, trauma, pain. When we learn to live in defense mode all the time, we do not recognise when we do not have to protect ourselves and do not let our guard down and are not able to recognise love from others that does not come in a now preconcieved idea of what it is to us. Or it may not come in what would be considered our love language. some marriages fail simply because one party cannot give love in a way that the other person can recognise it, or one person is simply selfish and thinks that life totally revolves around them and cares nothing except for their own wants.
But I think one of the biggest hindrances to relationships is that we do not really recognise that many things in life are not about us. they are about the spiritual way going on around us. The Bible say very plainly that we wrestle not with flesh and blood but with principalities and powers of darkness. When we learn to recognise that, it takes the personal fight away and allows us to see others from a different perspective. Learning to lean on the love of Jesus Christ also allows us to learn to love others without unrealistic expectations. this is also a process called growing up. If we have been dealt a hand of hardness as a child, we are often emotionally stuck at the age where we were damaged. You will often see adults that emotionally act like young children. this is why. At the time of abusive situations our brains actually quit making certain growth hormones. It has been scientifically proven that when a person learns to deal with the past and live a christian life that the body will actually heal itself.
Marriage between a man and woman has the ability to be a very unique, special part of life that cannot be created in any other manor or replaced in any other form. I sometimes wonder what God had in mind when he created humans like he did and also why he created us with the capacity to do so much violence to each other.
I think we need to recognise even here that we respond from our own life experiences and that when we think someone is out to get us, we need to stop and reconsider, Does the other person have a legitemate response and also am I able to allow others an opinion different than mine and am I responding because of my own pain, not in reality, to something totally unrelated to what is actually being discussed. sometimes it takes a while to recognise where we are coming from and even be able to put into words what we are or have experienced in life. We are not islands in and of ourselves nor are we wooden soldiers that cannot feel pain. Nor are any of us uncapable of hurting others without realising it, simply because we have different life experiences and different manners of expressing our thoughts.
nor can we make others see things our way or beat them into submission to my way of doing and thinking. Sorry guys it don't work.
It was only yesterday that I asked by sister who is a Holdeman Preacher's wife, this question; if you all made allowances for divorce do you think that about half of your marriages would break? She said that she really did not know.
Doug, regardless of where current marriages would stand (I personally would doubt even 5% of marriages would break myself, but what do I know, I do know most all the marriages I know about are pretty stable), I am very convinced that if an allowance for marriage break-ups were made across the pulpit in CGCM, that there would be a definite up-trend of divorces in 3-10 years. The reason would have less to do with current marriages, and more because many who are now children less than, say, 18, would look at marriage less seriously, and more as a "try it and see if it works, if it doesn't, there's a way out" type of commitment. I say that because that's how it would have affected me. When I, in my immature upper teens, looked at marriage, I viewed it as a large issue, and with lots of prayer, because I had been taught from little on up that marriage was for life no matter what. It didn't come with a trial period. I still view it that way.
I have very intimate knowledge of more than 1 H couple that have had serious issues in the past, issues so great that by all appearances the one man and one woman for life teaching by CGCM seemed to be all that held them together. Today these marriages are happy marriages. I have no doubt that without these sound teachings by CGCM that these marriages would no longer exist by the law of the world. Observing these kinds of things brings me to some conclusions:
1.Love is a choice.
2.Love is not selfish (self-preserving). Any strife in any marriage is because of selfishness and pride. Period. (ye cannot serve God and mammon)
3.Any couple that had enough attraction to pull them together and commit to each other in the first place also has the choice to revive that attraction by their unselfish commitment to love the other person wholly and completely again. While I take anything I read with a grain of salt (sometimes it's a pretty large grain ) I think the Love & Respect book written by Emerson has some excellent principles. I don't agree with everything he says all the time, but the principles are good. For example, he writes
"You may remember how the Beatles sang, 'All you need is love.' I absolutely disagree with that conclusion. Five out of ten marriages today are ending in divorce because love alone is not enough. Yes, love is vital, especially for the wife, but what we have missed is the husband's need for respect. This Love and Respect message is about how the wife can fulfill her need to be loved by giving her husband what he needs -- respect." -Emerson
I believe that is somewhat of a misnomer, because for a wife to choose to respect her husband is to choose to love him. But the principle he has right is that love, in the sense that most people who hear the words sung by the Beatles understand it, isn't actually true love, because it is based on emotion.
Looking at the here and now is somewhat missing the point, and is (usually) a selfish way of looking at it. It is better on these matters to consider the future and what ramifications our decisions we make today will have on the generation following us.
Who and what we love (and how) is a choice we make, and affects our emotions, including the emotion most people call love.
This message has been edited by anaverageh on Jun 16, 2009 10:04 AM
Your point is well taken that marriages that become weak can again grow strong, when a couple's priorities become Godly at heart level! I think that accurately paraphrases what you said.
Respect boils down to the mind-set we have and so does Love! Indeed a husband has deep need for affirmation and respect. If he deserves the affirmation and respect or not, he still needs it. I have said before that if a wife sincerely affirms the husband, he will find himself cherishing her. I believe that that is why the apostle speaks of this issue in that pattern.
My sister and I have a very good relationship, candid but good. TR I was not pointedly speaking of Holdeman marriages, I was making a point about all marriages in sectatian christianity where standards are held up to live by.
This type thing works to destroy true and real intimacy between husband and wife. The wife can say; you're supposed to Love me as Jesus does and make a good living for me. While these things are true, as soon as they become standards to live by we are already hurting our intimacy! The Husband can say; you're to honor and respect me, you know like Paul said back in the good ole days. Can we at heart level receive the spirit of what I'm writing? If so all standards of righteousness come tumbling down.
Christ in us is our hope of Glory!
The standards are the letter. Sectarian christianity has many of these standards for themselves on many different fronts. Having them for themselves immediately translates into having them for others.
True and free Christianity has none of the above, rather the free believer is washed of the water by the Word of God which lies out beyond the letter of it. This is why free Christianity can receive the sectarian believer but the sectarian believer cannot receive the free believer. The doctrinal standards that are in the sectarian mind, stand in the way for intimacy and fellowship of the free believer.
The letter kills but the Spirit gives Life and Peace!
Without the intimacy that can be reached in the absence of righteous standards, marriages [can] remain stable; but the Lord Jesus desires more for us!
What I am speaking of is the intimacy of the soul between a wife and a husband and how standards for each other hinders this intimacy! The wife can easily be placed on edge by the husband and visa-versa and it happens in the processing of such standards. Being on edge, hinders intimacy. So long as we entertain such standards for each other intimacy of the soul will languish.
My sister says that the Holdemans are all somewhat afraid of one another. She asked me; why is that Doug? When others have you somewhat on edge by a standard system one will be somewhat apprehensive about one's peers.
This precise thing is what causes the lack of intimacy between the different pursuasions of Christendom. Think about it. Walls go up by our righteous standards for one another, even between husband and wife. Walls go up between believers of different pursuasions in this same way.
Smaller and less ridged walls go up between believers even in the same sect. Sometimes there's walls between the preacher and the pew for the same reasons. When these walls go up, we become like an Old Covenant city. Those behind the walls are afraid of those on the other side of these walls. The building blocks of these walls between humans may be quite scriptural many times, that is according to the letter. The Spirit builds no walls between the many parts of humanity.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 16, 2009 12:46 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 16, 2009 12:31 PM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 16, 2009 11:10 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 16, 2009 11:06 AM
>Fear tactics, are false tools that an evangelist may use.<
<br>
What was the tool God used through Jonah to restore Nineveh? As well what was the tool used to restore Jonah himself?
According to God Himself, repentance is the first step to restoration. What is the motivation for repentance?
"Yes, love is vital, especially for the wife, but what we have missed is the husband's need for respect. This Love and Respect message is about how the wife can fulfill her need to be loved by giving her husband what he needs -- respect." -Emerson"
"I have said before that if a wife sincerely affirms the husband, he will find himself cherishing her." -Doug
In both of these quotes the wife leads the way whether in religion or headship.
The husband shouldn't dwell on "respect" as a condition and need to be loved. And for a wife to affirm her husband before he deserves it, or just so he can cherish her, which already shows he don't deserve it, can only be done by her religious leadership. And nobody knows what happened.
As far as a wife taking up headship out of these two quotes, she is free to do so, if the husband hasn't risen to it, and she don't sell her soul doing so with the devices of religion like I showed above. But by this time she will know what she is doing. Because headship is a very spiritual thing and is utterly unheard of in religion.
The Old Covenant people labored under what Jesus called the old leaven. Even before the old covenant existed, the Eden scenario started this off.
The New Covenant is clear that we are to purge out the old leaven.
The old leaven or energy is found in fear and shame; fear and shame suggests religious performances on our part.
Repentance, many times is a religious performance triggered by fear and shame, as in the case of Jonah. False repentance energized with of fear and shame, performs a false conversion in our life because the repentance is false. A false repentance cannot create a true conversion. We will do many good things if we are falsely converted but we do them for the wrong reasons.
Let us examine ourselves.
The New Covenant repentance is altogether different from the old covenant type of repentance and works from a different energy. The [power] of the New Covenant type repentance is unleavened! It's extreemly important to understand the changing of the covenants in this matter.
There is one type of repentance that need not be repented of as the apostle wrote to the belivers at Corinth. This true type of repentance works glory or Christ rule! A repentance unto Christ alone will work Christ-rule!
This type repentance is reached in a single way; there is no true repentance in New Covenant terms until we see Jesus in his love, mercy, and unmerited favors! This is why we preach Jesus and him crucified in every hue of color and from every angle. As He reveals himself to us we turn; in the light of seeing Him we turn from what we are over to what and who He is! It's the goodness of God that draws men to repentance, not the severity. This is the New Covenant pattern of repentance and it's glorious indeed!
Brent;
[The husband should not dwell on getting respect]. Tue enough, but the thing is much deeper than that.
Those men who have been married or who are presently married pretty much understand that it is not about dwelling on some standard for the wife to meet before cherishing her. The deeper thing here is this; there is bed-rock and bottom profile to the soul of a man; a man needs affirmation from the woman. Men automaticaly look for this. At bed-rock level this is not a standard of behavior for the woman, rather it's about what he is and what he needs to be feel complete.
As you refer to it Brent, in the man's mind this type thing [can] become a standard for the woman; when it becomes a standard he is placing undue pressure on the woman. There's a fine line to walk here. A truly feminine lady by merit of her womanhood, quite automaticaly affirms the man..The lady who has been deeply hurt by men in some way spontaneously tends to [not] affirm the man. Forgiveness plays a part here.
Men ought always to love their wife unconditionally! That's true but at times men get all bogged down inside as well. Forgiveness plays a part here.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 17, 2009 11:49 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 17, 2009 9:07 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 17, 2009 8:29 AM
Mr calledoutPTL wants to know why Jesus Christ isn't enough of a covering? 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have recieved of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.---All coverings except the covering of Jesus has holes in it. We have a friend who was really big on the covering bit. He said he would follow this man (his covering all over the world) He wanted to be our covering. We said no.) Story follows. Covering when we met him was a very good evangelist with a prophetic call on his life, very charsimatic in nature. Friend at that time was having our local paster mentor him to be a pastor when theis evangelist came around. Friend said goodbye to the local pastor and this evangelist took him under his cover. That was when we said no to friends covering. Friends moved away to follow this covering. Covering's ministry started going south and the covering started living a dual life, stepped out on his spouse and now they are separated and this covering is no longer in a ministry. Friend was left high and dry except he found a good church. Moral of this story is that a man's covering has holes in it, the man above him has holes in his covering, and the man iabove him him has wholes in his covering. There is no stopping place, and finally you have a patched up covering. Why? --- Because no man is perfect.-- I do believe in accountability though. If you have a ministry, you need someone to bounce things off with. written per Mr. CalledoutPTL
A covering that claims to be your covering, is indeed full of problems. Most of us came from a group who have some very large claims. It is hard to trust again for many of us. We do well to run from those who claim to cover us.
It's not about claims; leave that to the gold-miners. It's about being the real article, at which point there are no claims. If there's a claim, there's a problem. If I claim to be the prophet I have severe problems. If I claim to be your covering I have severe problems. If I claim to be your pastor I have severe problems. But if one's pastor [for example] is indeed teaching, guiding, and covering us in Christ, then our issue is to trust and also to remain awake in descernment.
The real article is the real article; the real article is Christ Jesus shining through a believer! The real article teaches, guides, and covers by Christ Jesus!
What we embrace shines through us. If we embrace the law or letter than that is what shines through us. If we embrace doctrines in order to be [right] then that attitude shines through us. If we egotistically embrace our gift, then the ego shines through us.
If we embrace Christ alone then He shines through us!
Christ in the believer can lead, teach, and cover others! There is no real covering other than Christ for His body! You have no need that men teach you for it is Christ that leads and teaches you. Many times this same Christ in others will teach, lead, and cover others. The value of this cannot be measured when this happens through humble men and women; this is my experience. Of course there are those charltons.
Trust is a huge issue here. If I do not trust the covering of Christ through others, I will then have to go it alone with Christ who is in me!
There is a greater richness in the larger body of Christ than my own, although my own be from Christ!
When others blessed Paul, Paul's answer was this at a certain point; [My] God will supply your needs according to his riches in glory! What many seem to miss in what Paul said here was that his God would be blessing them for their generosity! The greater, teaches and guides and covers the lesser and when we bless those who teach, guide, and cover us it is their greater revelation of God that blesses us! Their scope of God may be a whole lot larger than our scope of God!
In practical terms God is as large as our revelation of Him! I am that I am!
>It's the goodness of God that draws men to repentance, not the severity.<
<br>
Are you sure you got this right, Doug?
I would say that the severity of God is the original motivater. We do need to understand that God's severity is motivated by His Goodness. No where in nature do I see success without discipline. Discipline requires severity in it's ultimate. Therefore it is goodness that motivates severity in it's correct form. Severity can also be motivated be something other then Goodness.
I would promote "It is the severity of God that motivates man to repentance. It is the Goodness of God that draws man to change."
I do believe in accountability though. If you have a ministry, you need someone to bounce things off with. written per Mr. CalledoutPTL--Need to add that is what marriage is when you are one in body, soul, and spirit. Accoutable to each other, to be each other's helpmeet. When one is having a rough time, the other steps in. (Woman was taken from Adams side, not from the front of him or behind him, but from his side. Side by side in everything. Actually God called both male and female Adam. Adam was the one who named Eve.) For man needs to have love, respect, and appreciation and his spouse requires the same. calledoutPTL
- but the thing is much deeper than that. Those men who have been married or who are presently married pretty much understand that it is not about dwelling on some standard for the wife to meet before cherishing her.
Doug,
Then why are you guy's things on this subject, written as a standard, sound as a standard, read as a standard, and when acted upon, preformed as a standard?
Nearly everything can be distilled down to a standard or a model. The mind that is active does this. Once we are able to speak of things the mind has already done this, but that does not mean that we must walk things out by the standard or the model.
For a great example; when God in the mountain gave those ten Life-giving commands to Moses, this was glorious; but once these Life-giving commands landed on the valley floor they were quickly reduced to mere laws or standards.
This truth reveals us! A conferance decision [for example] may well be a good model and it may have been seen from some elevation, but by the time it reaches the ground and is voted upon it's a standard. At that point it works death in various ways.
The very best the standard of anything can do is to be elevated back to the higher quality of advice! This may be novel to some of us but this is so true. If a standard is walked out as any other thing than life-giving advise, we defeat the higher purpose altogether. That's bad! Now the thing is reduced to the human levels of control and to the love of an idea, rather than the love for the individual!
If we walk things out by the standard it does not work good and glorious things. There is a strong case to be made here concerning the dychotomy of the human being.
The letter of the thing kills, but the Spirit of the thing works life and peace!
Are we walking things out from the heart or from the mind?
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 19, 2009 10:05 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 18, 2009 8:51 AM
Indeed that includes spouses. A spouse should have no claim of being a covering; that should occur rather spontaneously. This does not require a standard! When we set or have a standard we are ignoring the processes of our salvation/restoration. We do well to start in a new and fresh way to believe in our salvation! Men and women [if spontaneous by a process called restoration/salvation] are not doing anything other than what they were created to do!
There has been so much contrived living at so many levels in Christendom that it seems few believers are confident that we can live from the position of restoration and sponatneity! There is hardly anything that catches more flack than this precious truth! Most believers seem not to believe in their salvation at any real level!
Most believers are too busy fighting evil and darkness while not knowing the war is already won and the rest of it is of Faith rather than of fight!
[Inwardly] we battle principalities and powers that suggest to us a contrary thing than this truth. We can bring every thought captive to Christ! Casting down all that which exalts itself above the [knowledge of God] and that is that the war is over and the rest is of Faith! It's the carnal minded believer that continues to argue that we must fight and war darkness and devils.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jun 19, 2009 5:48 PM
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