Forreal, I didn't understand your conviction on the avoidance in this post to Cupcake:

"Cupcake: In response to the segregated sitting pushed upon you by a minister. Not totally knowing all the complexities of your situation but I'll venture a quess. The minister that approached you was very likely passing the buck, if you could confront the laity that supposedly had issues about K sitting with everyone else, they in turn will say it was the minister that was insisting on this. Probably a fair share of H struggle with the avoidance issue and how it is practiced, both pro and con but few will actually step up and take personal responsibility for it. I know very well the group think mentality taking place in these situations. Carry on, Cupcake!"


Forreal, Can you explain how it should be scripturally practiced? How do you "take personal responsibility" for the avoidance?

If this is Jesus' example to show love to the expelled, then I guess Cupcake and other wives like her certainly do not love their husbands very much if they are not willing to practice it in everyday life.
According to this example of Jesus, Cupcake is allowing someone else to show MORE love to her husband than she does.

Any comments, ANYONE????

Yes, Foreal "is not reading the forum" when a prickly question is posed to him.

The silence is deafening, as it were, ahem.

I took note when forreal posted this response. I wondered if he was excusing or condoning the passing of the buck, and the failure to "take personal responsibility". I was astounded that he would write such a thing because it exposes them as such weak cowards. But I guess that is all ok. What more do we expect? Failure to take responsibility? Passing the buck. Right on, Holdeman preacher. You're a brave and fearless man!

That's okay, Forreal, I really didn't expect an answer!!! What COULD you say to save your face?? LOL I understand perfectly!! It's never about "personal responsibility" is it??? It's all about loyalty to the system you don't really believe in. I'm sorry if I put you in a difficult position. I know there's no way to honestly defend the system with personal responsibility......Cheers!

You know, I have to think of the gospel song that they would sing in the Holdechurch called "I would be true to thee, Lord".

FULLY surrendered, Lord divine, I will be true to Thee
ALL that I am or have is Thine, I will be true to Thee
Tho it may cost me friends and home I will be true to Thee
Cause me in lands afar to roam, I will be true to Thee
I will go with Thee ALL the way, I will be true to Thee
ALL of Thy bidding will obey, I will be true to Thee
Where Thou leadest me, I will follow Thee, I will be true to Thee.

The funny thing is that most Holdies who do know that there are things that the Holdechurch does that are wrong, will rather be quiet and pass the buck than be true to Christ or to their own consciences.

These words, in particular are hypocritical for the average Holdie to sing:

"Tho it may cost me friends and home I will be true to Thee. Cause me in lands afar to roam, I will be true to Thee."

Lose their 'friends' in the church?? No way! Make personal sacrifices in order to live their lives authentically and without compromising what they know to be truth? Come on! Nope. The potlucks and picket fences, the muzzle-nuzzles and mini-vans are just too comfortable. Who wants to give that up?

I know a father of 2 youngsters, well known to me with a faithful wife, simply tired of being married. So he divorced her.

His father (Not H, but Christian) avoids him, refuses him in the house, and won't eat with him. I applaud his conviction, the son needs tied to a pole and beat until he wants his family back!

But to avoid a man because he has a different spirit than the holdeman conference spirit, well that simply shows these poor people are simply lost. IMHO

But carry on!

>>I know a father of 2 youngsters, well known to me with a faithful wife, simply tired of being married. So he divorced her. His father (Not H, but Christian) avoids him, refuses him in the house, and won't eat with him.< <br>
That's the sort of thing St. Paul was talking about.

Something funny happened this morning. I was at a social thing with a bunch of H ladies and in the course of conversation, I was asked what I did last night. I replied that my husband and I had gone out for supper..alone...and the lady across from me said "How do you do that when you eat out with him? Do you get separate tables or just eat together?"

Seriously. I suppose she thinks I just avoid him at home? I felt like telling her "I have sex with this man! In fact, I have GREAT sex with this man! Maybe you should try sleeping with a sinner sometime!" And then eat separate? I have to admit this one eludes me. Can you just picture going out to eat with your partner and sitting at a different table?

It did give me a wild laugh on the way home anyway:) so I guess it was good for something!

It is very difficult - No impossible to figure out what goes on in the mind of some of these people.

Cupcake, it is not my intention to hurt or embarrass you. However, I need to talk straight to you. Your "wild laugh" rings hollow, and you know damn good and well that what that lady said isn't funny at all...not one tiny bit, that is, unless you think a broken marriage and divorce is funny. If that was truly funny to you, then you would be a low-quality woman. Actually, I hear either fear, confusion, or frustration in your "wild laugh". Now go study some things out with your husband and do it quickly.

P.S., I would divorce a wife without hesitation for "avoiding" me because of me breaking a Church doctrine. I would not divorce a wife for having an affair, but would rather get us both into marriage therapy ASAP. Does that help put things in perspective. If one partner has an affair, that is usually a cry for connection and intimacy which they aren't getting from the marriage. This usually has much hope. Avoidance/shunning is total rejection/invalidation. So do you really think what that woman said is funny? If your husband was not a docile, submissive, domesticated, ex holdi, he would call you to the mat today yet on the influence you are willfully subjecting yourself to. How do I know he is all of that? Because you are still a member? I doubt if 1% of the so called "worldly" men out there would tolerate that type toxic influence in their marriage. You and your husband are both betraying each other. He is not protecting you (and the marriage) and you are frolicking with his enemies.

>>Cupcake, it is not my intention to hurt or embarrass you. However, I need to talk straight to you. Your "wild laugh" rings hollow, and you know damn good and well that what that lady said isn't funny at all...not one tiny bit, that is, unless you think a broken marriage and divorce is funny. If that was truly funny to you, then you would be a low-quality woman. Actually, I hear either fear, confusion, or frustration in your "wild laugh". Now go study some things out with your husband and do it quickly.

P.S., I would divorce a wife without hesitation for "avoiding" me because of me breaking a Church doctrine. I would not divorce a wife for having an affair, but would rather get us both into marriage therapy ASAP. Does that help put things in perspective. If one partner has an affair, that is usually a cry for connection and intimacy which they aren't getting from the marriage. This usually has much hope. Avoidance/shunning is total rejection/invalidation. So do you really think what that woman said is funny? If your husband was not a docile, submissive, domesticated, ex holdi, he would call you to the mat today yet on the influence you are willfully subjecting yourself to. How do I know he is all of that? Because you are still a member? I doubt if 1% of the so called "worldly" men out there would tolerate that type toxic influence in their marriage. You and your husband are both betraying each other. He is not protecting you (and the marriage) and you are frolicking with his enemies.< <br>



Point by point here, Scott. Let me rephrase wild laugh to "good laugh for the day" and it was not hollow, it was genuine, because I am secure enough in my beliefs and marriage that I don't feel in the least bit threatened. Does that make me a low quality woman?

Don't you think by now I have studied things out with my husband?

I can actually take comments like that and say honestly that they do not make me angry/bitter/confused, because I have been down that whole road and they simply cannot touch me like that ever again.

My husband is not docile/submissive/domesticated. That was a low slap from you and uncalled for. You will notice that he must be doing somethng right because I am still with him and it's better than ever. I think that says a lot for the male. I think he has been wise enough and respects me enough to realize that I need to work through this process on my own clock and he has no desire to bulldoze me through or "call me on the mat" over what someone says. If he feels like someone stepped on me he will talk to them but he knows I'm a big girl and can take care of most of it just fine.

I don't frolic with the enemy either. Just because I attend their church occasionally and treat it as a normal place of worship; I don't subscribe to half the BS that goes on.

As a last comment on what you said about not leaving a spouse for having an affair. I would in a heartbeat. That can be (not always) a much more powerful and emotional rejection than the avoidance is because the avoidance has no more power over you than you let it.

Dearest Cupcake, LM read your post there to me last nite, I wasn't up to setting up. I laughed with you. I could just picture it. The shock on your face or the trying to remain calm and composed while you were trying to decide whether to cry, scream or just up and deck her or roll on the floor with laughter. Some people just simply do not get it. They live in such an insulated world, in which they pull the covers over their heads and bury them in the sand and forget somehow to be human and actually have feelings and real thinking, or actually read their Bibles in context and see what God says about it.
When LM was exed before me, I had some hard thinking to do. I looked around at the other couples here in similar situations and said,"I do not want that for my family".
Scott once informed me that my even thinking about how I was going to proceed was wrong. I have to say I disagree with that opinion. WE are women. We have a place here in life, a very important place, We are also individuals of by our own right or existance. We and we alone are responsible for our decisions that affect our own personal salvation. and we are also a very integral part of the home. We also have a very important part to play in our husbands life. and we have to be able to understand who we are in Christ to even begin to do that justice. But we have also grown up under a very patriarchal society that tends to dictate to us that we have certain responsibilities right or wrong, that we are supposed to carry out and we are to follow the leader till death. Sometimes those dictates are not the right thing for us to follow and we must live our own conscience and do what we understand God wants us to and that does not always agree with the dictates of church leadership and sometimes.
To me to not think about it at all would be irresponsible>

We must make decisions based on what is right for our own family and what is to be done with true love for our husbands, Not what is the decision of other men, Nor their opinion of what is right in their eyes What is right for one man may be totally wrong for another and cause untold pain. We are not islands nor are we identical in our thoughts, needs, desires and wishes. I personally would not want to live with a man that did not value my mind and abilities, anymore than I want to be a wife that does not value her husband and his needs, desires and treasure him.

AND CUPCAKE KEEP ON LAUGHING< IT IS A GREAT STRESS REDUCER AND SOMETIMES THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP THE WHOLE THING IN PERSPECTIVE AND FROM OVERTAKING YOU>

You will notice that he the Holdemans must be doing somethng right because I am still with him them and it's better than ever. I think that says a lot for the male Holdemans.

Cupcake. A few years ago, back when I first started exposing my situation on Holdeman Survivors, a lady emailed me privately about her situation. She was a member and he was expelled. Would you care to speculate for a moment on why that is their MO? If you really understood why that bias exists, you would leave the Church today yet to be with your husband. But anyway, she wrote me and said that she and her hubby went to a non-holdy therapist for some marriage therapy. She wrote that after the therapist understood the dynamics of the OTVC, and how that plays out between the husband and wife, that they were informed as a couple that the wife needed to leave the Church before they wasted anytime on getting help. Do you even understand the implications of this information? Does your husband? Do you have any idea what real leadership even looks like? Do you understand the difference between leadership/decision-making based on feelings instead of thinking? Tell us what you know.

Cupcake; you have pretty mush echoed what would be my wife's response. She is not a member but very much believes in equality of male and female in Christ... and that we respect each others positions (but not without intense debate). I look up to woman who have fortitude, understanding and are able to stand on their own.

That's not to say that Scott does not expose H injustices and is willing to write about it. He makes some very good points which I have also repeated in the past. But I do not accept, or at best do not understand, Scott's total view on masculine/ feminine order.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28

Hank, now this is an example of you disagreeing with me in a way that I can respect. In turn, I do not agree with your view of masculinity/femininity, but you are presenting your views honestly without logical fallacy or evasion.

Scott,

I don't post much on here, but I do read some of the posts from others; until now you have seemed like a fairly intelligent individual. However,your post to my wife (Cupcake) the other day was most definitely the biggest pile of horsepucky I have seen from you to date. In its entirety. First of all, you started out by saying you didn't want to "hurt" her which was already obviously untrue, because the only reason someone would pick apart a post about a funny happening would be to try to hurt, probably because you're envious of the humor.

There is simply no reason to twist & misconstrue someone else's completely innocent, humorous post to fit your own agenda. You also insinuated if not outright said that "if she really thought that was funny then she was a 'low quality' woman." Don't you ever, EVER insinuate or say such a thing again. I realize you've had your own hell to work through, but that gives you no right or reason to spew emesis on others. My wife is of the highest quality & deserved none of the BS you piled on her with your post.

You also mentioned that you "needed to talk straight" to her,& that was also a farce, because you "needed" no such thing.

KB

I have a small question, KB. Does it ever hurt when the Holdemans try to come between you and your family? You must be a stronger man than I am because I don't know how well I would be able to just blow all that stuff off. I know you guys are going through a difficult process, especially with children to be responsible for and all, but I find it extremely hard to find any humor in the ignorance of such people who only claim to love you. Sadness, yes. Humor? Absolutely not.

KB, I don't blame you for being pissed that I called you a "docile, submissive, domesticated, ex holdi", but my comment still stands. The fact that you think I am the enemy rather than those who influence your wife with their toxic poison pretty much tells me all I need to know. Have a nice day.

Stand by your man.

Is your man your husband or the "ministers".

 

Foamhead,

 i'm sorry, but I have zero respect for your wife. Anyone who decides to live with one foot in "the world" watching your tv, dining with you, having all the fun you provide, and still getting her "spiritual jollies" from the local bushmaster, is a two timing woman. The ones who are really getting ****ed up in all this is your kids. At home they are taught that movies and all that "fun" stuff is good (which it is) and then you send them to a school who teaches that such stuff is a sin. Talk about screwing up your kids for life. You are not fit parents if you still have them in the h school.

Sorry, but all her whining on here about how "funny" or "frustrating" the church is but not having the decency to make a clean break with you is quite simply tiring at best. I've thought it for months, but now I've said it.

I'm tired of all the nicey-nicey talk and trying to "support" her in her decisions to "love her husband" while "being faithful" to the church. Time to call a spade a spade.

(and I'm not trying to stick up for Scott here, I couldn't give two ****s about his marriage; it's history. Start thinking about yours Foamhead, or do you enjoy having "the ministers" in your home. hey, if you do, whatever....)

Scott, when you talk about them influencing me with their toxic poison, how do you think they do it and when? Just a sincere question here. If I am rarely with them and when I am I do not accept any stray comments or slants on the whole thing, do you think it's toxic? We associate with people of all kinds and I suppose anything can rub off if you accept it.

As to your question of whether I know what real leadership is. I am quite sure our ideas of leadership would differ and that's ok. Do you think being a true leader means to drag your spouse away from anything you don't think is good for them and treat them as someone incapable of making a decision? I can't see that as bringing about voluntary respect and love.

Peter, thank you. Considering that he has been exed for barely over a year and I am much much different than I was a year ago, I'm not sure how fast you think most couples work through this. I know of couples that live this way for years and I am sure we won't be one of them. And I "whine"? I rarely post anymore and I sure don't feel sorry for myself so not sure where you are getting the whine vibe. Is this forum to air stuff or not? Should I just be posting charismatic, praise the Lord and I'm at the happiest place in my life stuff all the time?

Hey, if you guys just wanna talk about politics or work or beer, start a forum that isn't titled "church of God" or "Holdeman Survivors".

Ms Foamhead,

If my wife was standing too close to a fire, or drinking too much, or doing something that was destroying her body or soul; yes, I would grab her and get her the hell away from the situation.

Yes, this forum is designed to air frustrations and deal with issues. (which is precisely what I did in my post)

Peter, I know, and it's fine. Nor do you need to respect me at all, but I think it's a little unfair to say "zero" on someone whom you don't know personally or know the situation or how we handle/deal with stuff. That's like the H people..drawing snap conclusions on people just because of something they do or say.

If your wife was doing something dangerous and you pulled her away but if she wasn't quite ready to be yanked yet, for whatever reason, do you think that would be as effective as letting her get herself away when she was ready and knew she would have no regrets, never look back and be happy?

And one more thing, Peter, that comment on us not being fit parents was just plain nasty. What do you think has been the source of our greatest worry, fear and praying but our children? Do you really think this is something we just take lightly and float along with not caring? We invest most of our time, love and worry into these children and that comment just sucked. Good grief, do you think H school is the sole way to mess up a child?! There's a ton of other ways parents can do that other than sending them to a strict school. One year; one year of change here and we aren't fit parents? Go away. Far,far away.

No, as an educated (former) counsellor in substance abuse, I believe it is in the best interest of the user to create a "bottom" if there life is in danger and they do not understand the consequences because the substance does not allow them to make proper decisions. Of course it is best when they want to be helped, but sometimes (often) an intervention is needed for the person to be able to see the need to change when removed from the substance for a period of time and sobriety.

And yes, I do compare the two, because the mind control and guilt pressures bred and taught into cult members are very similar to those of substance abusers. (example: being taught to lay everything down and all logical thought is "man's reasoning", giving complete authority and mind control to the leader/substance) The spiritual 'high' felt after good 'fellowship' or communion services is the same endorphines flooding the brain as happens during a substance 'high'. The 'crash' or 'lukewarmness' is the high leaving the system and the mind begging for more of the substance/spiritual or emotional high.

Quite frankly, Cupcake, I do not know you or care whether you choose the kool-aid of the cult or not. I do care deeply for innocent children caught up in the mess that their parents create in the process of using.

eta after seeing your next post:  one year, one year that can never be given back to a sponge-like growing brain of an innocent child.

Scott,

First of all, no, your comment does not "stand" because it never had any validity in the first place. Therefore still worthless. Secondly, I was not only pissed off because you dissed me. It was your crappy, sour comments to my wife I addressed.

Peter,

It's also a good thing your "respect" for my wife is not asked for or worth anything. You may be "educated" but you still obviously have no clue what you're talking about, because you don't know a thing about the situation. And, as for "enjoying" the ministers in my home, that's also pure BS... Why do you think I didn't allow them to "visit" with her last "revivals"? Stick to things you know something about before you flap your yap.

My wife is still the best woman in the world.

Both of you have a fantastic day.

I think I'm going to get a beer.

Sirius, I'll have a Coor's and Clam; order it up, I'll be right there.

cupcake and foamhead. If you place any value on your marriage and your kids there is no choice but remove yourselves from the cult completely asap. We didnt always appreciate the advice but it was the truth. The h cult has you exactly where they want with vulnerable confused children and one spouse expelled. From someone who has been there done that and I mean exactly what you are experiencing.

Dale

I'm sure you wouldn't allow a two timing woman to join you.

Peter, you make some valid points. (Oh,btw,I realize this looks like K and I are going at this together, but I had no idea he was posting; didn't put him up to it in any way,etc. His loyalty IS sweet,tho..) I have been thinking about them. I still think it counts for something when our kids know we love them more than anything and we discuss these things as we go. Even if there is a change taking place, they do seem happy and secure and tell us much that we are the best parents and they love us. If, through this whole thing, we were passing a lot of feelings and junk on to them, it would be different. But we keep it open and discuss things and they know we are trying to work through it to the best of our knowledge. There is more than one "right" way to raise kids...don't we all give it our best shot? I get a little tired of the H church being made out to be this major, major factor and influence on little kids' lives. There are kids other than H that get taught a lot of the same principles and nobody says they are being all screwed up.

Seriously, I am unsure of lots of things yet. Not sure why I expose that to criticism but hey. I see people leave that are happy and grounded but I see plenty that have basically nothing and do whatever they want while their kids dangle along somewhere in the background and nobody wins. And EVERYbody has their own agenda,their own way of interpreting verses to fit what they want to do and believe,and I am pretty much hanging here because I don't believe all of any of it. It is rare to find someone who left to be completely free of any anger, bitterness or confusion or have formulated their own belief system to fit their lifestyle. Some days I could be agnostic.

Sirius, I'll have a Coor's and Clam; order it up, I'll be right there.

You've got it, Peter. I've never mixed tomato and beer but I'll try almost anything once.

KB and Cupcake: Cheers to both of you! Don't let the playground bullies of the Church of "Gad" Forum get to you!!! Just a word for both of you, those that holler the loudest many times are the ones that suck their thumb at night because of insecurity in their own relationships. I am very happy that you both seem to love each other and are trying to make your marriage work regardless of
nay sayers. To those of you that have tried to get me to respond earlier on this thread about an observation I made to Cupcake. It was an observation only and I don't intend to defend, explain or reason as I am disgusted also at some of the behaviour I see from so called well meaning folk. I have also found it does not produce desirable results to "chat up" the playground bullies that seem to have become very dominant on this forum. For that reason, I offer no excuses or defense of any behaviour you may point out as I feel it is pointless and it leads to excuses to continue your intimidation. In the end we will all sleep in the bed we made and unless someone genuinely is seeking a relationship with Christ I tend to steer clear of debates that have all the neighborhood hoodlums gathering trying to cowardly get a piece of action. Utter stupidity and I would also suggest that some of the most prolific posters here get to work at doing something redeeming for society instead of nursing grudges that have been rehashed and rehashed and rehashed and rehashed, you are only prolonging your misery. Forreal for now

Yeah, keep talking, Forreal, you old geezer. Little do you know that cupcake is on her way out and there isn't a damn thing you or any of the other Holdis can do about it. That's right, she'll be out and free and you'll be still be stuck in a church that you really aren't that sure of yourself.

On second thought, there is something you can do about cupcake's departure. Continue supporting your ignorant brethren in holding the avoidance on KB. Really stick it to him. I mean it. Treat him like a black man in the south in the 50s. That will be sure and hasten her departure.

Forreal, you and your Holdi brothers and sisters sure are a bunch of winners.

Forreal, you like to come on here and run your mouth just like everyone else. Sure, you don't agree with every Holdi decision. You don't staunchly uphold every doctrine. Just like 99% of every other Holdi, you do just enough to squeak by. You know it's the truth. When you die they will say, "He was faithful to the end". Whatever. What a crock. You don't have the balls to do what KB did and leave. You enjoy floundering. You enjoy taking communion once a year and getting the warm fuzzies.

Why don't you give cupcake some information she could use so that she would feel secure in staying a member. I know why, because you don't have any. Stay where you are, Forreal. It suits you.

Sirius,

Forreal doesn't know what to say except to lash out and cry 'bully'. You see, the holdies don't often hear the truth; it's usually a bunch of platitudes sugar coated and laced with false humility and 'concern'. So when they hear real words with meaning, they cringe behind momma's skirt.

You also hit on the main point. 90+% skirt around the rules and regs and squeak by to drink the koolaid once a year. Now if someone wants to be a die hard holdie and give up the kayaks, the secret dvd's, the internet, and all "worldly" things, more power to them.

It's the whining, sniveling, just get by wanting the "world" but **** scared to face life on their own without momma's tits that just crack me up! for pete's sake, grab a backbone and live your truth!

As far as responding to Forfalsehood's post; there's just too much to say and too little time. Enjoy the kool-aid man, I'll rather have a Coors.

Pardon me, if you don't mind, I'm going to break out of the shute and ride this bronco a couple rounds and say my piece too. So put down your beer, slap yourself in the face and listen up, ya hear, ha.
I try, as you may have noticed, to stay out of cat fights as it does not promote good will, but, on the other hand I have the resolve to put up a good fight should it be necessary to rise to the occasion.

I have been under the impression that most of the posters on this forum agree on at least one thing and that is a quote by Jesus to love our neighbor as ourself, so where's the love? If I understand correctly, the primary focus and reason for this Church of God in Christ,Mennonite forum is to air out our differences of opinion and/or find some answers to our questions and grievances as it relates to the H church.

I just don't see any reason for all the bashing and making a person feel like an absolute heel. I have no problem with disagreeing with someone but why the character assassination? Every time Forreal comes on and let's out a peep it's like a pack of wild dogs(wtk quote,sorry wtk)come out to pounce on him. And Forreal I can agree with a lot in your post.


Life is a work in progress, and some things take time. In regards to Cupcake's and KB's children, doesn't it make good sense to work through the transition WITH them(if in fact there is a transition)so that they can understand the changes taking place? It would be more security for them doing it that way than an abrupt change, IMO. They have their own decisions to make in life and we need to give them enough lattitude to sort through their own feelings.

So, I've said my piece, now take it away, kick it around and throw it back at me....meanwhile I'll put ole bronc back in the pen,, unless I need to get'er back out again.

Ya'all have a happy fourth of July!

Damn you, GM. I thought I recommended that you stay over to the tavern and keep all the pretty girls entertained and the frosty mugs full. It's nothing but trouble out here. We're just trying to help "calamity Jane cupcake" sort a few things out and we'll be right back.

good points GM. I think the thing that needs to be recognised here is that every one does not have the same circumstances facing them. Some that say they are doing just fine without any H in their life, left as teenagers and created a life of their own yrs ago. they say they are doing just fine. If so, why do they feel it is their right to totally bash someone that is making the transition in a different way? What is it to you? And if you are so well adjusted, could you explain why you also feel the need to be in this place where we defuse and rehabilitate. Hate to tell you but you guys are reacting by feelings not truth here, at least to some degree. If you were not married in the H and did not have children in that place, then you are really not making an effort to really understand what they are going thru.
I did not grow up H until I was in my middle teens, but I did grow up with parents that changed churches every couple yrs looking for the perfect place. they were H 10 yrs, the longest in their history. I know what that felt like to me as a child and I could not bring myself to start that life style with my children, wandering from place to place trying to find a home, a place where we could belong. Or a place where we felt free to live out christian life true to our convictions.
I also sadly had hope that somehow I could help the H see what they were doing both to themselves and to the witness they did not want with their neighbors. I also saw the benefits that my children had by not being influenced by things like TV and immodest clothing among other things. I could look back and say, I shoulda done this and I shoulda done that and things would be different. Yes they would be. but would they be better or not, who knows. If my family would never have been H. I would not have LM and 7 beautiful children. If I had not been raised in a christian environment, there is a high probability that my life would echo that of my cousins who have been married and divorced multiple times over and are still living life for them selves like they always have.
I have 2 beautiful daughter in laws and a son in law that is simply a wonderful person. should I throw them away because they are H? Should I walk away from 5 of my children because they have chosen the H over me? Should I walk away from my brother and his family or my inlaws and reject them because they are H? Or is it better to live my life to the best I can as a christian showing uncondtional love to them all, rather than bitter hatred and condemnation?
If I had left 15 yrs ago, they would not be a part of our life and our children would most likely not be H, but would they in reality have a better life. I doubt it. Do I think they will all stay where they are the rest of their days? Don't know. I think the H are going to go thru a severe transition that they are not prepared to meet. It is gonna be a totally different place.
But until you have walked in KB and cupcakes shoes, I wonder if there would be a bit more compassion to be shown. and if what you have blasted them with is an example of your counseling style, I am real glad I am not seeing you for help. I got enough help like that from a couple H ministers. I called it abuse. Sorry guys, I know that you are better than what you did today.

Where the line between individuals breaks is the word "cult". CGCM is a Christian church, part of the larger Christian faith and not a cult. So, those who resort to c-branding are the one's who take the lower road, in my opinion... and it shows.

GM, you make some excellent points about loving our neighbor. This includes everyone including those who are actively and verbally against us.

"Christ did not come to condemn the world, but to save..." John 3:17 p, (paraphrased).

Ah yes, what the Love of God can't fix GM, can't be found!

If I were to make a point here it would be this; anyone who loses a spouse from a culture or church by legal expulsion where they both were attending, out of responsibility to one's spouse and children the remaining one should also leave this culture or church and do so with neither fear nor malice.

Legal membership in any culture or church is not a salvational issue! Legal membership is not the entry into God's Church and therefore legal expulsion is not the exit from His Church!

Legal membership did not exist in the early forms of Christianity. They were loosely organized. The early Christians were members one of another by embracing and receiving the same Spirit and therefore they felt responsible for one another and they functioned in that way! Since there was no legal membership there was no legal expulsions. The whole premise is in error and has fear alone to work off of.

There is no doubt that I love all of you!

"Legal membership did not exist in the early forms of Christianity. They were loosely organized. The early Christians were members one of another by embracing and receiving the same Spirit and therefore they felt responsible for one another and they functioned in that way! Since there was no legal membership there was no legal expulsions. The whole premise is in error and has fear alone to work off of."





Thanks Doug. I believe you hit a home run with this one.

>"Legal membership did not exist in the early forms of Christianity. They were loosely organized. The early Christians were members one of another by embracing and receiving the same Spirit and therefore they felt responsible for one another and they functioned in that way! Since there was no legal membership there was no legal expulsions. The whole premise is in error and has fear alone to work off of."< <br>

After a lot of study and contemplation, one would have to come to that conclusion. It is the only way it all makes any sense.

It is the only way one can truly live in the complete freedom in His Spirit. Once you add the legal membership that's when bondage begins.

I believe you hit a home run with this one.

I agree...thumbs up!

GM, you have hit the thing on the nail head. The H conference is a legal entity, a legal "person".
reference
A legal person, also called juridical person or juristic person,[1] is a legal entity through which the law allows a group of natural persons to act as if they were a single composite individual for certain purposes, or in some jurisdictions, for a single person to have a separate legal personality other than their own.[2][3] This legal fiction does not mean these entities are human beings, but rather means that the law allows them to act as persons for certain limited purposesmost commonly lawsuits, property ownership, and contracts. This concept is separate from and should not be confused with limited liability or the joint stock principle.[4] Also note that basic rights (like the rights to free speech and due process of law) do not necessarily follow from legal personhood. A legal person is sometimes called an artificial person or legal entity (although the latter is sometimes understood to include natural persons as well). Although the concept of a legal person is more central to Western law in both common law and civil law countries, it is also found in virtually every legal system. [5]


A legal person, or fiction, is the essence of what idolatry represents, for an idol is an inanimate object, that man attempts to "give life to" and serve.

A man is not allowed to collect, interest from his brother. Neither to buy or sell Land, for "the earth is the Lord's" Therefore the Israelites built idols to hold possession, and those idols or legal persons could collect interest and buy and sell "inheritance rights", or "land"

A man is allowed by scripture to "avoid" an erring one for certain cause and still claim the love of God, however the man doing the avoiding is intimately aware of the cause, for the scripture says "let him be unto thee as a" instead of let him be unto the legal personhood of the church as a "..."



The Holdeman system forces idolatry because if you get into the system and "put on repentance" for some "spirit" you are expected to apologize to the system but not any particular victim of your wrongdoing. If my attitude gets bad, a man is the object, he notices it, and should bring a charge, and expect a repentance. I never have to apologize to the legal system. But the H Preacher David Nightengale told me that My sin was so bad that I would not be able to "repent" in the system but would need top be "taken out". Of course my sin had no victim, except those guilty liars that were attempting to hide their actions by accusing me of something that is not defined in scripture as a "sin unto death" or a sin against a certain person. My sin was basically exposing the lies of the Holdeman idol.

I refused to apologize to that idol, and still consider it a sin to genuflect toward it. For an idol is a man made fiction of law, and is put there to serve, and not be served.

1Co 10:14* Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.


It seems sort of funny, that the H people can read the bible, see the falling of Israel into it again and again, and not have a clue what idolatry is.




May God richly Bless your day!

Fred;

For you to see the religious idolatry as clearly as you do Fred, you must not have been breed and born among it. Those reared up in it, really cannot see it very well or just maybe these are afraid to see it. Railing on the organization is a very real charge you know. It's likely to be considered a death sin of some sort.

My sister asked me this question; Doug, why do you think we are all afraid of each other in our church? I must say this; human beings love acceptance among family and friends and particularly from the system we were reared in. It has to do with major rejection from what we from little tots up had great confidence and trust in.

>I must say this; human beings love acceptance among family and friends and particularly from the system we were reared in. It has to do with major rejection from what we from little tots up had great confidence and trust in.< <br>

We just had a sermon on that this morning, about all the things we do to be accepted. I think the H minister done quite well in pointing those things out and I was quite surprised.

Doug :you are right about Fred not being born and bred into it. That is definitely what gets some of us into major trouble with them. WE have a different thinking pattern that does not bow to man or the system in the same manner as those that are trained from birth.
Fred was a major threat to someones intimidation spirit.

GM : there really are some H ministers that I think are seeing the real issues at hand and have their hands tied. they are trying to reach out when they can and I have heard some really good sermons on such things in the past few yrs. If it would just get past the head knowledge stage and into the heart stage it would make a major difference. I had one tell me just a few weeks ago that he is seeing a change in how some of them are looking at things, but unfortunately the base is so slow to move and of course SATAN doesn't want them to see it and change anything either.

and I was quite surprised

Why?

I can answer why he was surprised. Because they require their membership to fit in or be exed and shunned. To preach about it like it is a negative is a double standard. You're right though, why should that surprise us?

On a previous post by Cupcake:

"influencing me with their toxic poison, how do you think they do it and when? Just a sincere question here. If I am rarely with them and when I am I do not accept any stray comments or slants on the whole thing, do you think it's."

I think the question you were asked at your gathering that made you laugh would be an attempt at influencing with what could be considered toxic poison. It wasn't very discreet or tactful, but avoiding being disrespected like that again is what keeps a lot of people in line.

by TR,
>Why?< <br>



TR, here are some of the reasons why. [I wrote this several hours ago and was reluctant to post it but here it is..]

Fred, I am a big believer in living in the freedom of the Spirit and being free from bondage, although I struggle with it too. The Holdeman people do not realize the bondage they are living in. I am not talking about the bondage the way they see it. They see bondage as living in the sins of the world(lustful ungodly living,which does also bring bondage)but they don't see the bondage of judging, of comparing between each other, of status, competition in being successful in the material things of life, and the performance-based mentality and having all the gadgets that indicate success in order to be accepted, the pressure by the authority to blend in with the others so we lose our individualism.

GM,

Bondage is in fact living in the sins of the world. This would include "judging" (which is not to be confused with avoiding the company of those that seek for the things of this world, lest God's Word be untrue and false), "comparing between each other", "status" (totem pole stuff?), competition of being successful in the material things of life, etc. etc.

I have no problem with seeing that as bondage. I know exactly what you are talking about. Further more, that is something a lot more people are bondage to than a few Holdemans, by far.

I think there are more people in the Holdeman church that realize these things than what you (and some others here) let on. Those things are sin, and should be dealt with, as the Holy Spirit leads.