Kent Wiebe got up to preach, but before before he preached he asked everyone to close their eyes and raise their hands if they had been texting on their cell phones lately after they had been instructed to stop. After the vote was taken, he proceeded to preach a sermon on Aiken and how he and his family needed to be stoned to death for hiding stuff in his tent. Kent also stressed several times that IF texting is needed there needs to be "legal permission" requested and granted before it can be done. There is a feeling in the leadership that submission and obedience will bring spirituality. They have forgotten "the letter killeth but the Spirit bringeth LIFE"!! A shephard spirit is missing.

The false fear, the false judgement, the false guilt trips, seem completely opposite to the message of Jesus. Jesus draws men to repentance instead of drives, he forgives instead of stones, he lifts and inspires people to walk in trust and confidence to God and with each other. Moses first was told by God to strike the rock. The second time he was told to speak to the rock. These symbolize the two covenants. But the second time, when Moses used the rod instead of speaking, he displeased God. Even though water came out... Moses himself suffered huge consequences by not being allowed into the promised land.

Preachers of today take heed!

Where is Filer?

Yeah, where is it? And what happened next? This is like a cont serial! calledoutPTL

In Idaho near Bulh

The thing about this is the blatant sin the preachers have in "presuming" authority in the face of obvious scripture to the contrary. He (Mr Wiebe) is simply preaching his own lost estate, and casting it onto the simple in the H so they can share their eternal fate together.

Mark 10:42* But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43* But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

To exercise authority in the "church" by the ministry is a sin against the obvious meaning and actual words of scripture. These people will flex, and bend and do all kinds of spiritual gymnastics to avoid looking at this well document truth, but it is a denial of God for To look at his word and deny it is to judge God,

Matt 20
25* But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26* But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;


Just why did Jesus say "so shall it not be?"

I'll tell you why, because he doesn't have the light that the holdeman preachers have!

(sarcasm alert)




May God richly Bless your day!

Kent Wiebe knew that if he didn't ask everyone to close their eyes the guilty ones would not raise their hands. So he tricked'em. (what would everyone think of me if they knew I texted ? a message, even if it was just to my wife or children? ha) I wonder how many barely opened their eyes to see whose hands were up?

I've often wonder where "the close your eyes and don't look around" came from. To me it isn't scriptural, although many churches do that with the excuse, "We don't want to embarress anyone." I have to think of the verse, " If you are ashamed of me, I will be ashamed of you." everytime this is done. calledoutPTL

Concerned Holdeman please please read the below and see what you think and share this with as many as you can. I knew Kent for a few year in Wisconsin when a boy. Allen Weibe's his folks lived about 2 or 3 miles from us.

Just What is the Holdeman Religion?

Article yJ

Note, although this article might seem critical to some, please take time to honestly and carefully examine the various things contained herein, which things others also are discovering and examining.

It is a religion which has various good qualities and which contains many sincere people. Yet it is a religion which also has various inconsistencies which this article very distinctly focuses upon, and which very much need examined and dealt with. yJ-1

It is a religious organization whose leaders in being officially placed into office must promise to teach and preach the doctrines of the Bible according to the interpretation of the conference and councils of this particularly named organization and to abide in them with unchanging fidelity unto the end, and thus an organization having leaders significantly promised to be unquestioning followers of this organization rather than an organization having leaders prepared to stand in the gap and apart from possible errors as did Apostle Paul and the prophets in old times who were particularly called of God. (Ministers and deacons vow no 4 ). What would John Holdeman who initiated the Holdeman religion, and who together with his dad and two others separated from the main church have done had he vowed loyalty to his church as Holdeman leaders now must do? yJ-2

It is a very church oriented religion whose reli-gious publication actually advocated that the Biblical bride of Christ consists of those who the church has baptized and received into the church, rather than those whom God has called, saved, and gathered to Himself throughout the world. (Sunday School Lesson Introduction July 1 2001 ). yJ-3

It is a religion that realizes that in old times the prophets repeatedly stood alone in opposition to God's erring people, and which freely sings "dare to be a Daniel dare to stand alone", and then without giving indication of exceptions often teaches it's people that they dare not stand alone but must unreservedly accept the unified light of their church. yJ-4

It is a religion having people who God loves and wants to cleanse, enlighten, and bless with an excellent spirit. yJ-5

It is a religion that very much holds to Menno Simons' teaching that Jesus in being born of Mary did not inherit any physical aspect from Mary or humanity, even though Menno in advocating such therewith quite foolishly advocated that no children inherit any physical aspect from their mother. (Menno Simon's, Wenger Translation Pages 767-770). yJ-6

It is a religion, which together with Menno Si-mons, advocates that the Eternal Word became Christ's flesh (and thus it did not derive from Mary), while yet Rueben Koehn their most predominate leader of the 20th century in a very official writing correctly and emphatically taught (yet opposite of Menno) that the Word did not turn into and become Christ's flesh, but rather the Word simply entered into a fleshly existence where human experiences could be His. (Messenger of Truth, Feb 15 1989, Last Paragraph of Page 2 ). Note, Menno's central emphasis was that the Word simply became Christ's flesh and he very many times strongly advocated such, while he therewith advocated that the Word did not take upon Himself flesh. yJ-7

It is a religion that claims to believe that Jesus was a true descendent of Abraham and David according to the flesh (one who came in the flesh), and thus a Savior who could be and was tempted like we humans are, while yet advocating Jesus inherited nothing at all from humanity and was a Savior who had no possibility to sin! yJ-8

It is a religion which makes Jesus sinless because of not encountering our very flesh and situation rather than sinless because of overcoming it, and which makes Jesus' temptations significantly unreal. yJ-9

It is a religion that doesn't realize that Jesus was a Spiritual Son from heaven who grafted upon Himself humanities very flesh and problem, and overcame it and resurrected from it, thus becoming the first fruit of the resurrection and paving the way for us humans to do the same, which issues are simple and vital basics of Christianity. yJ-10

It is a religion that doesn't understand God's wondrous proof of human resurrection as is revealed in Christ's resurrection, because it in reality denies that Jesus came in the flesh which error the Bible says is the Spirit of the anti christ. (1 John 4:2-3, 2 John 1:7). yJ-11

It is a religion which also largely advocates that true baptism should involve less water than drinking water, while rather, firstly the word baptize itself means to wash, secondly up till approximately year 1400 the Martyr's Mirror speaks of baptism being a washing and of applicants going into the water to be baptized, thirdly both John the Baptist and Jesus in baptizing were baptizing in a special geographical area because much water was there (John 3:22-23), forthly early Christian pictorial representations of baptism, as on the catacomb walls, show applicants in water with water being poured over them, and fifthly baptism with an abundance of water very properly symbolizes being washed from our sins, burying the old man, and resurrecting to a clean new life in Christ. yJ-12

It is a religion having sincere ones who God loves, and to whom He wants to reveal numerous vital truths, which have been sadly hidden for many years. yJ-13

It is a religion having sincere ones to whom God wants to reveal His goodness insomuch that they can understand in a new way why King David so greatly rejoiced in His God, and even spoke of His statutes and judgments being sweeter than honey on the honey comb (Psa 19:7-11, Psa 119)! yJ-14

It (Holdemanism) is a religion wherein many might feel that almost every thing beautiful, pleasant, and enjoyable is nigh unto being unlawful, although rather God withholds no good thing from those that walk uprightly (Psa 84:11), and giveth us richly all things to enjoy (1 Tim 6:17), and although Jesus abhorred and broke manmade religious laws and came to set the captives free, and although God's laws really are laws of liberty. (Psa 119:45, Jam 1:25, 2:12, John 8:32 &36,). Note, God's laws very much are designed and intended to prevent people from harming each other or themselves, and as Apostle Paul said, are good laws if applied lawfully (1 Tim 1:8). yJ-15

It is a religion that claims it understands, firstly the importance of having God's laws personally written on the heart, secondly the principle of living under grace rather than under the bondage of the law(s) (Gal 4), and thirdly that God's law actually is the perfect law of liberty, and yet must outlaw things that can be very beneficial and useful simply because they can also be misused. yJ-16

It is a religion that freely uses tape recorders for saving telephone messages, but rejects tape recorders as for missionary language study and Bible study, and says tape recorders are inconsistent to Christian warfare. yJ-17

It is a religion which largely rejects cameras, because photos are likenesses of things in heaven and earth and which could pertain to idolatry, and because of possible misuse. Thus it's people cannot even take discreet photos of missionary or humanitarian activities in foreign lands to show people at home what is there and is happening, or use such photos in introducing and preparing future workers. Thus this use and many other helpful and practical uses of photography cannot be utilized within this religion. Yet it is a religion whose people will draw or paint pictures, and who will freely buy post cards with great care for the photos thereon, and whose book shelves and mag-azine racks are full of quite unimportant photos which are very much appreciated and enjoyed. yJ-18

It is a religion (like many religions) very effected by the Docetic and Ascetic religions of the early centuries, which religions largely felt anything material or physical was evil, greatly denied Christ came in the flesh, and were largely opposed to anything that might be pleasing, beautiful, and enjoyable. It appears these early religions in their peculiar emphasis against the material and physical, were opposed to anything that the physical might enjoy. This self depriving emphasis was opposed to musical instruments as well as many other things. Early Christian reli-gions like these also were very negative towards marriage and the special blessings God intended therein, and even foolishly restricted intimacy in marriage as only for creating offspring. Note, if Apostle Paul would have actually believed intimacy in marriage was permissible only for creating offspring, he instead of saying, "it is better to marry than to burn", would have said, "it is better to stay away from the marriage environment than to burn" (1 Cor 7:9)! yJ-19

Holdemanism is a religion which for some time mostly held to single voice soprano singing, and was significantly opposed to singing with four voice harmony, and which still rejects singing with the accompaniment of any musical instruments. (Note, comments on musical instruments are given in the endnotes ). yJ-20

Holdemanism is a religion that rejects various particular and convenient ways of attaining beauty, while yet carefully trying to attain beauty without those particular and convenient ways of attaining it, and whose people might even put more into attaining beauty in their peculiar way, than many who are not trying to avoid beauty or decorations at all. yJ-21

It is a religion whose people might too much think humility pertains to their peculiar ways of avoiding beauty, modernism, and enjoyment, while rather true humility really pertains to personally knowing God, and realizing our nothingness and unworthiness before Him. Note, although some might relate self deprivation with humility, yet contrariwise Christians taken up with manmade religious restrictions often instead of truly being humble and feeling unworthy before God, rather feel sufficient and full of good works before Him, while neither perceiving God as the gracious, wondrous, and thankworthy Father that He truly is. Thus the restrictions of men, which might be thought to be the way of humility, can instead generate a false feeling of worthiness before God, while also obscuring the goodness and liberality of God. One should here remember how King David so greatly rejoiced in his God and His goodness towards him. One should also very much remember how Jesus emphatically rebuked the commandments and traditions of men, and was considered a liberal by many (Matt 11:19, Mark 7:6-9). Note God's people are to be different than the world because of not conforming to the world's evil ways and vain fads, and not to be made different than the world through manmade traditions and laws of self affliction. yJ-22

Holdemanism is a religion whose leaders might often mistake the special warmth and pleasant fellowship as is naturally felt among people who have confidence in each other and share a common emphasis, as a special witness of the flowing and presence of the Holy Spirit, while it might merely be a kindred or friendship spirit, rather than the witness and flowing of the genuine Holy Spirit of truth which is very concerned about the truth (John 16:13). yJ-23

Holdemanism is a religion which is very difficult if not impossible to help or correct, since it claims it has always been true, and it's people are taught to trust the church rather than their own thinking, and then often don't want to study in a aggressive or original manner, because such takes effort and might even end up dividing them from their church and the pleasant social life they enjoy therein, and even cause them to become religiously shunned by friends and family. yJ-24

It is a religion whose people rather need to be like the open hearted and noble Bereans who received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so (Acts 17:10-11). yJ-25

It is a religion whose people need to remember that Jesus in His famous beatitudes, gave the blessings to the poor in spirit, the mourning and meek, and to those who were hungering and thirsting after righteousness (Matt 5:3-6). yJ-26

It is a religion whose people need to be more interested in serious Bible study, solid truth, and seeking God's rewards for today and eternity, and less interested in playing games, material pursuits, wealth, luxuries, and fitting in. yJ-27

It is a religion wherein God at times still won-drously reveals Himself as He in His mercy does in many churches when sincere ones are found trying to do His will. yJ-28

It is a religion and church that quite strongly believes herself to be the one and only true church, and oh may God help her to at least be true regardless of the only. Note, the Holdeman religion within it's one and only true church belief, also largely believes that God has designed that He will absolutely never establish or accept any Christian assemblage throughout the world, as a true and authentic Christian church without them having first been physically accepted and authorized by the true church, being their church. Although such a one true church belief appears to be erroneous, yet the Christian church still very much is ordained to be both one and true as Jesus earnestly desired and prayed for in John 17. Thus may all Christians and churches be both one and true as in being appropriately united and one with all true Christians and churches, and separate from all false Christians and churches. yJ-29

In conclusion the writer very much invites the reader to read the article entitled "God and Religion, What's it all About" posted at www.TeachMeGod.com as it extensively considers the basics and blessings of true religion. And, Oh may God greatly transform the Holdeman religion, or at least deliver the writer and his family and many others from the blindness, erroneous influence, and great difficulties often resulting from this religion! Farewell.

2755 013004 yJ-30



Ministers Vow (Deacons vow very similar)

"Do you promise to give heed to all the doc-trines of the Word of God, and to teach and preach them in accordance with the interpretation of the Conference and the councils of the Church of God in Christ, Mennonite, and to abide in them with un-changing fidelity unto the end?"

Sunday School Introduction
"The kingdom of Christ is made up of born-again believers, the world over, who are following the examples and teachings of Jesus. The bride of Christ refers to the church, the visible body of believers who have been joined together through baptism. The love of Jesus Christ for His bride is beyond human comprehension. "

Rueben Koehn Article
John's Gospel treats on Christ's part in the Godhead, developing the matter of the incarnation. He declares that "The Word" became flesh," not that the substance of God became that substance which we know as body matter. "The Word" is a name for God, and "flesh" is a name for humanity in its entirety. It simply means that the Son of God by a voluntary act became a man. He entered into an existence where human experiences would also be His.

Musical Instruments
Christians should be aware that in old Bibli-cal times musical instruments were significantly commanded to be used in worshiping and praising God (1 Chr 15:16-21, 2 Chr 29:25-26), secondly be aware that God would particularly manifest Himself and words of prophesy be inspired while instruments were being played (1 Chr 25:1&3, 2 King 3:15, 1 Sam 10:5), thirdly be aware that the Bible speaks about the musical instruments of God and speaks of the Angels in heaven playing on harps of gold (1 Chr 16:42, Rev 14:2 & 15:2-3), and forthly be aware that the main Scripture in the Bible that speaks negatively about musical instruments is Amos 6:4-6, and it is addressing a situation of their misuse as in luxurious and careless living, while within that context this Scripture also speaks negatively about lying on beds and couches and eating meat! It should also be noticed that the New Testament in speaking of edifying Christian fellowship particularly encourages the employment of psalms as well as hymns and Spiritual songs, while the word psalms (according to it's Hebrew and Greek roots and as used in the Psalms), very much could pertain to music involving musical instruments. Note, simply tapping one's foot or fingers on something while singing to give additional accent to the song is a form of instrumental music.

Amen brother!

I earnestly wish every one of my H family could/would read this study outline...

regarding the opening post:

 

While the only thing that surprises me about the H is that nothing surprises me anymore, the question begs asking.....................

DID IT REEEEEEEAAAAAALLY HAPPEN THIS WAY?

I have a very difficult time believing any h minister would be this open about their deception.

I am not aware of any conference decision that was handed down to the people instructing them to stop texting. So this minister is making new rules on his own.

Holding (or should that be 'Holdieing') his light above that of the brethren, as it were? Ahem.

I know some H people who use texting all the time and very staunch. This is a new thing.???

Peter... I found out from a reliable source (a friend of a friend that lives there!) that this really did happen this way... pretty amazing!! My information source didn't want to say too much for fear of getting in trouble for it! I guess everybody is running scared over there.

DID IT REEEEEEEAAAAAALLY HAPPEN THIS WAY?

I have a very difficult time believing any h minister would be this open about their deception.



It really does happen this way. When we were in there John Nightengale, (the father of minister David from our congregation). He came for meetings and preached the sinfulness of 2 tone cars. Then he asked everyone in the congregation that supported his message to raise their hands. I told my wife that day to look out, they are gunning for us to get "offended" so the others will slay us on the altar of the holdegod and it nefarious imps. (I said it in different words at the time, but that is essentially what happened.


The next day he preached hell fire and in so doing he stirred up the heart of a good layman. This brother came to me and told me I was either "lost" or well on my way because of my 2 tone car. But he didn't volunteer to pay for painting it! And simply couldn't understand why I wouldn't want to keep the conference rules!

So I pointed out that there is no rule about 2 tones, but there was about the girls cutting their hair and he allowed his girls to cut their hair. How am I suppose to know which ones they are allowed to keep and which ones are not necessary? SO I asked him why he expects obedience for non written rules some lying flyby night legalist preaches about when he wouldn't even keep the written ones there for everyone to read about?

This "confusion is the essence of the holdeman religion, because the rulers want their people so bending their minds around the rules they don't keep and focusing on the ones they are expected to keep, that they develop a spirit of deception (2Th 2:10* And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish) in their followers.


He bent around this particular rule by saying that cutting the bangs of his girls is not cutting the hair! Yea okay!

So the holdies simple followers don't realize they are actually not keeping their own un-keep-able rules, and they stand up in blatant hypocrisy to expel others that refuse to submit to the foolishness of their lying preachers.

I do not know whether to laugh or cry.
I do know that when I grew up the two tone car was not an issue at the congregation where I grew up. No one could purchase a new car so you got what you got. No one bought fancy cars and occasionally there was some with more than one colour on it. They were used to go to Church, to town and to the store and to the post office. My sister when she went to work got a car and I think Dad may have helped her buy it. It was very reliable and 5 or so years later and Dad`s car was older and she Got married and moved away. Her new husband had a car so Dad purchased it from her. It was an excellent car with many miles left in it. Several years later Dad went on a trip to USA with it, Probably to see his daughter and other friends. When he came back he had or maybe he painted the top to match the bottom. It had been a leather like black top and it got painted blue to match the rest of the body. However the paint would not stay very well and shortly after it looked like a holstein cow, Only in stead of black and white it was black and blue.
It amazes me what people will do to please people in authority !!!!
Howie

I just wish I had had a camera then.

hi .. well i must say i have seen many levels of stupidity instead of levels of spirituality within the h church.. to solve their 'texting' sinful ways..get rid of your dang cell phones.. that should eliviate one problem..

i once told a Jewhova witness man that every single religion i know simply takes what they want from their version of a bible and creates there own world full of rules and guidelines to live by.. . some of us who are 'normal'..not going to 'hell ' people dont care to hear your version.
i will say this only once. there is not one religious, church going, born again, human being i know of who follows the "LOVE' chapter in the bible.
found in second corinthinans chapter 13... maybe you all should read it again and see who looks stupid..

i spoke with my adopted h mennonite family once and told them if they thought they were going to get front seats at the right hand of god they better forget it.. those 'rodeo tickes kicked off' when marymagdalene bought the front row..she was jesus's lover you know..

i really cant be bothered to write on here as it hurts banging my head against a brick wall..

I hear you loud and clear, Shirley

I have a good friend from Filer that told me last revivals that texting had become a communion issue. They weren't allowed to go to communion if they still had texting abilities on their cell phones.

Hmmmm. If I'm not mistaken, Brian (another wonderer) and his wife were informed of their excommunication by text message.

I was wondering about that too Sirius.

Seems to me that there are gonna be a lot of pitfalls in this mess till its over.

Holdicaia 5:9 Thou shalt not text, lest thou shouldest be denied the communion wafer.

All groups of any type have rules/regulations/concerns/memos/points of discussion, etc. A line is drawn in the sand, when someone oversteps the line the group has to decide what to do if anything. Perhaps nothing will be done. Perhaps the line will be moved. When I say groups I mean professional bodies, workers unions, others and churches as well. I Corintians 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord."

This texting thing sounds ludicrous. We all need to watch what we do and it is good (according to the bible) to care about each other. So someone gets overzealous and hurts a few feelings.

This is sad and so often unneccessary. But it happens. The bible says it must. Matthew 18:7 "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!"

We are not supposed to wallow in our hurts but get over them. I find this nearly impossible to do.



Better or Bitter? Which one are you?

---when marymagdalene bought the front row..she was jesus's lover you know.----I pray that we all love Jesus with the passion that marymagdalene did. calledoutPTL

Better or Bitter? Which one are you?



I'm niether. I'm just grateful that I escaped while I was young. I can't even imagine raising a family in there and then trying to make a break for it.

GM.. "I am not aware of any conference decision that was handed down to the people instructing them to stop texting. So this minister is making new rules on his own."

What you said there is really odd. (I'm not trying to be rude.) It only starts with just one person making an odd decision that's not found in scripture and convincing other people that he has made a good decision. Pretty soon it gets to be a whole conference agreeing with an odd decision that has no Biblical basis.

Lark, what I find odd about all this is, what is so offensive about texting? What does this minister know that makes him set down this kind of rule? To me, it's just like having a phone conversation. So are they texting obscene messages or what? If that's the case, and you can't control yourself, then by all means get rid of the texting feature. Sheesh, this is some elementary stuff.

I didnt know they had rules about texting in bible?? who was texting? oh right...probably Judas in the garden when her betrayed christ..i bet he texed the others so they would know where he was hiding out.. you h people are sick humans .. there are millions of starving people in the world and you worry about some people using their phone services available to them ???..shame on all of you and shame on whoever the creepy minister was who made this stupid announcement..pathetic..truly pathetic!!!!!!!! and hs is one of gods leaders?? another reason why i will never stoop to respect their religion

I've actually heard of young people being expelled and I thought they had done the bad, and found out it was only for sending naughty text messages back and forth. How can you people be so dumb? Didn't you know about the real reason for text messaging? It's for letting people know that they are expelled and for carnal courtship.

.

Well texting is a communication tool and a quiet, and private one at that. The preachers are worried that a relationship outside of their control may develop. SO they don't like it.

After all, their job is to break the sheep's legs so the sheep will want to stay close to the shepherd.


Can you imagine what would happen if the laymen in there started to "speak often one to another"?

(without the direct knowledge of the ordained imps in control?)



Malicholdiciaha 3:16 Then they that feared the the holdepreachers obtained legal permission from them and then spake often one to another: and the holdepreachers hearkened, and heard of it, and allowed a communion wafer for them that feared the holdepreachers, and that thought upon their nefarious authority.