Please state in clear terms why the church of god in christ mennonite is a Christian Church, today.
No quoting from Phillips, Finney, Simons, Holdeman, Articles, BD+P, or any books. I would sincerely like to know how in today's practices this cult lines up with Orthodox Christianity.
I don't want to know how they "were" or if they were prior to any decade or century. How, today, do they measure up in practiced doctrine, and on which points you would consider yourself in fellowship with them.
And consider the following as well. please explain why, if they are a wonderful christian church and not cultish, what is stopping your continual and weekly fellowship with them.
No quoting from Phillips, Finney, Simons, Holdeman, Articles, BD+P, or any books. I would sincerely like to know how in today's practices this cult lines up with Orthodox Christianity.
"Christian Church", vs "Orthodox Christianity".
Peter, while we are waiting for Hank's answer, I was wondering if these two terms are synonymous in your mind?
If they aren't Then you might want to spell out the difference for Hank to answer the question?
Peter; I think we have been over this ground before but here is my plain and simple answer. Jesus refers to the church in the NT only twice and in the context of Matt. 16; He says He will build His church on the confession of Apostle Peter... "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." I understand these words of Jesus to teach this to be the basis of the church. Wherever you find peoples who with an honest heart of faith confess Christ, there is the church. CGCM confesses the same; individuals who are baptized there are asked if they "believe in Christ... " and these form a church or an assembly of believers.
It is interesting to note that 5 verses later, after commissioning Peter with instructions, Jesus address Peter and says, "Get behind me Satan, you are an offense to me..." God is fully aware of the fallibility of man, including the Apostle Peter, and yet Peter was granted a special place in the early church. Churches are just such... they are assemblies of failing people, people who understand their desperate need of Christ without whom all their worship and gathering would be for naught.
I cannot vouch for individuals in a church (nor is anyone asked to), but the basis of CGCM as a whole is belief in none other then Jesus Christ and to live after His example. If some stray from that they will individually give an account for it.
Peter; I missed your last question. I consider CGCM peoples to have a unique culture but not to be a cult in the sense of the word as used earlier. I also believe that since membership is a formal (or legal as suggested elsewhere) process, then the organization can also remove one from their rolls. The reason I do not fellowship with them on a weekly basis is because (1) they have dis-fellowshipped me and I do not believe in forcing my company on anyone and (2) there is no H church in my community.
I believe churches are local, rather then denominational. Jesus said that wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in His name, He will be in the midst of them and this happens anywhere.
I think you stated it well Hank; those were true words on the surface.
Now then to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and that He is the Christ, speaks to the truth that He alone is one's righteousness! Are you and I together on this? Is He alone our actual righteousness? Is He within us the entire measure of our righteousness? Is He actually Lord? Are we dead to the righteousness found in precepts and ordinances which Paul says is our own righteousness?
True words can come from our mouths and then men will turn from those words and live their lives in acordance with precepts and ordinances to sustain one's approval with God by a precept and ordinance righteousness! This is now believed to be the righteousness of Christ Jesus. It is actually called the righteousness of Christ Jesus! That's the real error in some churches who start off properly.
The Galatian church did this, this is not a new thing among believers. This determines whether a church is a continuing true church of Jesus! The Galatian church is never recorded as having repented from of their fall from the premise of Grace to precepts and ordinances as their premise of righteousness. The church at Galatia was never restablished in the real Faith of Jesus that we are aware of! It's a hard thing to get up from that fall. This is so because it is hard to repent of something that one deems to be a good thing. To see that type thing as sinful is almost impossible. It is improbable.
To add precepts and ordinances to the Spirit of Grace as guidelines to righteousness, is a subtraction from this Spirit! This is precisely how those at Galatia fell from the premise of Grace! Paul said that they added nothing to him in this case even though they were somewhat in conference with one another. There is no security in numbers once this occurs. The whole lump can be leavened. Jesus nailed that whole process of precepts and ordinances for righteousness to His cross. We do well to preach the Gospel of Jesus!
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (in other words, tithing is important, but works without faith is incomplete)
1John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Doug, as I read your posts, I appreciate your Christ-centered approach. I also get the feeling that you are preaching "cheap grace," that there is nothing we need to do except preach Christ and Him crucified.
I believe that the new covenant means the law of God is written in our hearts, not just on stone tablets, and that they are just as applicable today as they were when Jesus walked this earth.
Matthew 5:13 ¶ Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. 14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven 17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Notice when Jesus comes back, our reward is commensurate with our "work." Please don't misunderstand, I am just as assured as you are the Jesus' blood is what saves me, not my own works, but because I am in love with Him, I choose to do what He asks me to do. "I love Him, therefore I keep His commandments." (John 14:15)
Hank's understanding is interesting....confess Christ with your mouth, and then go violate whoever you please! Of course, this is not what Hank recommends, but it is what his interpretation allows.
This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jul 6, 2009 8:03 AM
"If you find a perfect Chuch - Do not join it. It will no longer be perfect. Roy Mitchell "
Used to have these discussions with H about the church being perfect, How this is the perfect ONE TRUE CHURCH. They would always be telling me, "If you would just do this or that, give it all to GOD, YOu will be thus and thus and you won't ever struggle again.........................."
That's when I would say "the only time on this earth that I am going to meet your standard of perfection is when you stick me in a box and carry me out the back door and bury me in that cemetary. And if you are planning on keeping a perfect church then I know for sure that you don't want me back, cause I will never meet the criteria of perfect here on this earth."
It still baffles me to think that a group of men can here on this earth tell me that I have reached a place of perfection.
Forgiven, yes. Perfect, Never. I just can't see that I will ever reach a place where I make no mistakes, don't stick my foot in my mouth or do something else stupid. It is physically impossible for me to be perfect. I do happen to be real fortunate that some folks love me anyway and it doesn't matter to them.
The LDS along with it's splinter groups, as well as Church of God, and Church of God in Christ (not the h one) also baptize and teach a "faith in Christ". Are these groups local churches as well? Would you consider the group from Bountiful or Warren Jeffs group (who profess belief in Christ) as fellow Christians?
I'm just trying to figure out what it takes to be considered a "fellow brother" in your books.
You get the wrong feeling from my writings if you think I promote cheap grace. I will continue to say that there is no cheap Grace in it's raw and unfettered form; this message and it's lifestyle cost Jesus, His life! That's not cheap. We're dealing with something very costly!
To walk out the fullness of Grace will cost us all that we are as well if we continue to follow after the Spirit of Grace! Every point of entry is a death to life entry!
Grace can be [revealed in] us, not only received as a gift by Faith!
The whole Law and the all the Prophets are fulfilled in the two life-giving commands of Jesus, I believe this with all my heart! This is what [He] said! Why would we say and and then practice something other than His doctrine?
His doctrine understandably kept Him in trouble with those of the law.
To love God with all our heart and to Love our fellows in the same strength, fulfills all the Law and the Prophets! May we all try the living Christ with everything that lies within us and see that this to be so!
The first five commands of the ten, speak to our love for and relationship with God, the remaining five commands speak to our love for and our relationship with our fellows. Jesus hardly deals with the ceremonial precepts.
Do we preach and live the doctrine of Jesus or do we add to Him? Is He sufficient for us or is He not? Do we surrender to Him alone or do we add to Him and then go about surrendering to those things? It is hereby that we fall from the premise of His costly Grace. Is He the pearl of great price in our lives or is He not? The answer to this is determined by the following. If for righteousness sake we add to who He is within us as born again believers, we fall from the premise of Grace! This is not hard to understand.
Christ in us the hope of Glory is the mystery of God. This mystery is revealed to us by the New Covenant writers! If Jesus had been willing to mix the two covenants they would not have crucified Him and this costly thing called Grace would not have been revealed to us! This can occur in us and when this is revealed to us, we altogether sell out to He who lives within us! By being alive to Christ Jesus actually, I have been made dead to the law for righteousness. The Apostle Paul spoke of this.
What cheapens the Spirit of Grace is when we add precepts and ordinances for righteousness to the Spirit of Grace! Those at Galatia did this and fell back from the premise of Grace! In perspective they fell back to the old covenant. Consider the six chapters of the letter to the church at Galatia.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 6, 2009 11:16 AM
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Yes to me preaching that one should have conferences to add rules about TV, Radio and Computers and Internet not to speak of music and beard is a dirrect disabediance of God's word. I was willing to return to the Church which I for years thought was the True Church but when I listened to the still small voice - The closer I listened and searched the NO became very clear to me.
"he first five commands of the ten, speak to our love for and relationship with God, the remaining five commands speak to our love for and our relationship with our fellows. Jesus hardly deals with the ceremonial precepts."
Well, I agree with you for the most part. I believe the first four commandments deal with our relationship with God, and the last six with our fellow man. I also believe this is exactly what Jesus is referring to in your other quote: "The whole Law and the all the Prophets are fulfilled in the two life-giving commands of Jesus, I believe this with all my heart! This is what [He] said! Why would we say and and then practice something other than His doctrine?"
Jesus said we could "hang all the law and the prophets" on this principle. Of course Jesus did not spend time advocating the sacrificial system and the ordinances and the feasts etc. because they all pointed to Him - the spotless Lamb of God - the Sacrifice to end sacrifices. We are told in Colossians that those things were "nailed to the cross." A perfect reference to Jesus being the Scrifice that ended the sacrificial system.
I believe people try to say that Jesus isn't referring to the 10 commandments in the reference you made above because they don't want to acknowledge that the seventh day sabbath still applies. There seems to be no argument about the other 9 except for our Catholic friends who change things around a bit to get rid of that troublesome forbidding of image worship.
You pretty much know what I will say about the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath, Jesus said when confronted by the Hebrew, Sabbath keepers. Jesus and His disciples had broken the Sabbath in this confrontation. Jesus gave them ample reasons to crucify Him.
Surely the Spirit of Jesus has nothing against worshiping on Saturday. We do well to do that every day. So it's really about the Sabbath rest, is it not? That is what the natural day of rest [the original Sabbath] points us toward! It's a shadow, it's a pointer. Christ Jesus is our rest or our Sabbath! There is a rest that remains for the people of God it says to the Sabbath keeping Hebrews! Heb. chapter four.
The whole law is a shadow that points us toward Christ, hence it is fulfilled when Christ is come into us! No law or ordinance is kept as a precept in Christ Jesus! The law is a school master to Christ and when He is come to us it is done away with for righteousness sake. The law is not destroyed but for the sake of righteousness, it is left behind us so far as righteousness is concerned. Gal. chapter three versus 24 and 25.
There's a continual rest when Christ Jesus becomes our righteousness. We now rest from all the laboring of keeping the precepts of the law for righteousness or for the approval of God. Nothing in the eyes of God can make us more righteous than we already are when by Faith we receive the gift of God! Christ alone is our righteousness! We rest! That's the positional truth concerning us; now our privilage is to walk it out from the well-spring or dynamo of Christ within us! Our inheritance is within us. Eph. chapter one. We inherit His righteousness! There is a restful righteousness that comes by Faith!
Amos says this right; we all need the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ!
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 6, 2009 7:57 PM
After Peter said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" Jesus replied, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: FOR FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN."
Many religious congregations confess Jesus to be the Son of God as did Peter, yet merely because of the teachings of flesh and blood (men), rather than because of a revelation from the Father as motivated Peter's confession. These congregations are not worthy of the blessing Christ gave to Peter because although they are saying the right thing, they lack the revelation and relation with God, as had Peter. Jesus also said, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." These living waters do not happen in those whose faith is based on flesh and blood, but in those whose faith is based on a revelation from the Father. And these will seek and do the will of the Father. May God grant me that revealation and those living waters and unite me with a people of the same.
"You pretty much know what I will say about the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath, Jesus said when confronted by the Hebrew, Sabbath keepers. Jesus and His disciples had broken the Sabbath in this confrontation."
You are absolutely right, the Sabbath was made for man.(not just Jews) The Sabbath is also the Lord's day (Matt.12:8), not Sunday as some try to build into John the Revelator's reference. As far as the "confrontation, Jesus was trying to help the "letter of the law" Pharisees see that they had taken something that was designed by God to be a delight (Isa.58:13) and turned it into a burden where He was in violation of their rules to even heal a man! Jesus showed them their hypocrisy by pointing out they would rescue an animal on the Sabbath, but not allow a child of God to be healed. Jesus had a golden opportunity here to mention the passing away of the Sabbath at this point if He ever would have, but instead He just said "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." (Matt.12:12)
Another snapshot of Jesus is that He observed the Sabbath consistently.(Luke 4:16)
Yes, we rest in Christ every day. We also agree that the other 9 commandments still apply, but the 4th is just a suggestion. In the old covenant it was kept to the letter. in the new covenant, it is written on our hearts and Jesus expanded on its meaning. The letter said "thou shalt not commit adultery." With the new covenant in your heart Jesus says to even look at a woman and lust after her breaks this law.(Matt.5:28)
Importantly, for those who think the Sabbath is a Jewish thing, it was instituted at creation, and is a weekly reminder and memorial of our Creator God.(Gen.2:2)("sanctified" means set apart for a holy use) You see daily the attack on God as Creator. Perhaps it is partly because we have turned our back on His weekly memorial of it! Also, the Sabbath was reiterated prior to Mt. Sinai. The manna only kept overnight on the Sabbath!(Exo.16:20,23,24,25)
Next, we see the Sabbath was an integral part of our relationship with God as part of the first four commandments.
Next we see Jesus keeping the Sabbath in a man-friendly way. (as opposed to a burden)(reference above)
Next we see the disciples keeping the Sabbath and meeting also with the Gentiles on the Sabbath.(Acts 13:42-44)
Next Jerusalem is destroyed in A.D. 70 and Jesus warned "Christians" to pray that they not have to flee on the Sabbath.(Matt.24:20)
Next we get a look at the "New Jerusalem" and find that we will still worship God on the Sabbath in the new earth!(Isa.66:23)
Today, we are living in the age of Revelation 14. Notice in verse 14 that our worship is to be to "...Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water." The end of all things will still center around worship, and God has told us when to worship, but many obediently worship on the Sun-day instituted by man as a way to get more pagan sun-worsipping non-Christians into the mother church. Consider what Jesus said in Matt. 15:9 Man-made worship is in vain!
In summary, the Sabbath was instituted at creation, observed through the ages by followers of God, including Jesus and His disciples - even long after He ascended to His Father - and we are told we will worship God on Sabbath in the new earth. Can you honestly believe we should change for a while in the meantime due to an act of man to get pagans into the church?
You are right, we can rest in Jesus every day, but Hebrews that you referenced, says in chapter 4:4 that God rested on the seventh day and then add verse 9 and see that the rest remains.
If you worship on Sunday, you are a day late for a very important date! Your date with the Creator God!
If you worship on Sunday, you are a day late for a very important date! Your date with the Creator God!
No, That would be admitting that the old covenant is still in effect. I choose to live in the new covenant where every day is blessed and every day is worship!
These kinds of threads make me so thankful that I am no longer a "Christian". To say that it is irrelevant and tedious does not come close to doing the tedium justice. For 2000 years, theologians have clogged the airwaves with these kinds of arguments, as unbelievers look on and snore. To my shame, I have participated more than my fair share with this stuff. But now (and I believe I could speak for many), "frankly me dear, I don't give a ....".
I have some good friends who were SDA. They are great, caring people, but in their own way, actually more dogmatic than the Holdemans regarding their "candy stick" doctrines. The hard drive spins up, and the predictable data comes out the spout... And the sad thing is that very little (if any) of the data touches the real need of the condition of the human heart, e.g., loneliness, insecurity, guilt, fear, self-hate, etc. etc. That's why I hate religion because it actually seems to make these things worse, and if somehow religion can seem for a moment to bring a "peace", it is always a peace that requires intense maintainence.
Oh by the way, I was a Sabbath keeper for a while (or at least I tried)...and for sure, HOW to keep the Sabbath lawfully in this age is a whole nuther topic.
This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jul 7, 2009 6:57 AM This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jul 7, 2009 6:53 AM This message has been edited by oldmanrip on Jul 7, 2009 6:48 AM
Scott, I couldnt agree more with your assessment of religion. Especially the part about how it doesnt touch the needs of the human heart. This argument about the correct day to worship is a classic example of superimposing a set of artificial values in place of the real needs of the heart, and then pretending they satisfy some genuine need. It seems to me that the pretending is where the maintenance you speak of comes in. Rather than going with the flow of the natural human element, you are required to push your set of ideas up stream.
"No, That would be admitting that the old covenant is still in effect."
Actually, it is admitting that God's word takes precedence over a man-made day. Our Roman Catholic friends freely admit to changing the day. Documents provided on request...
I realize that many feel the way Stan and Scott do. I am sorry they feel that way. Jesus certainly can fill the longings of the heart. Particularly when our desire is salvation for ourselves and those we love. We can't expect all of our earthly life to be painless. It is safe to assume that none of us have endured what Jesus endured for us. The reward is certainly worth the cost.
I almost hate to bring up the Sabbath, because folks like to think that's all we have to talk about. That certainly is not true, but we agree about the rest of God's law. It seems that many denominations should stop talking about the 10 commandments and rename them the 9 commandments with 1 suggestion...
Your hard drive is in good condition and you've made some interesting statements along with what I see as an over-emphasis.
My brother and friend Galen do you actually believe that a believer's date with God for the sake of intimacy, worship, and the restoration of mankind, emotionally, mentally, and physically is predicated upon an emphasis of a particular day of the week?
Galen speak to me on the ground and not from the hard drive. I do believe your heart is good toward the living and personal God and that the Faith of the heart has brought healing and restoration to you along the path. That's the big stuff as Scott and Stan have spoken to. What we do is this; we hurt the cause of Faith toward God for the purposes of restoration in spiritual ways, in emotional ways, and in physical ways. May the Lord Jesus forgive me and help me when I have done this.
My wife Theresa has had tremendous restoration in her soul and body by her Faith in Christ as the healer and it continues to occur and grow. She says that she has a date with internal Christ on all seven days of the week! I like that! I as well have had these things occur in myself and I have never given the Sabbath more spiritual emphasis than another day, neither have I given Sunday more spiritual emphasis than another day. [We do well when we do not worship days in this manner]. We're actually worshiping the math in this case. Mankind was quite illiterate and not very mathematical in our early days and definately not very obedient. Who's to say that that same seventh day when God rested is still the same day as our seventh day? Galen that's trusting the math of early man to an extreem degree. It could be the same day I suppose.
Worship, basically means something that gets our intense focus and I do not believe that days, or feasts, or foods, or any other type of tangible thing should get our intense focus. I personally believe that these type things actually distract us [at least in degree] from our personal restoration by Christ! I am with you on that matter, Stan.
If those type distractions are what christendom is about, then against my own will I'll say that I do not want to a christian either. I for one will say that that is not what being a Christ-person is about!
Romans 14: 1-14. concerning special days and special foods etc. This quote is from the hard drive.
Let Love rule us!
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 7, 2009 10:24 AM This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 7, 2009 10:23 AM
"Romans 14: 1-14. concerning special days and special foods etc."
You are absolutely right, this text is talking about special days that went away with the sacrificial system that pointed to Jesus. Some Jewish Christians still wanted to observe Passover etc. This is NOT in reference to the weekly Sabbath.
I appreciate your loving response and I agree with you that Christianity is nothing if it is not love. however, loving the Lord includes keeping His commandments. (John 14:15)
I mentioned before that I don't like to focus on the Sabbath, but it is part of the commandments that has been largely ignored by modern Christians. I don't want to camp on this issue, so I just ask that you ponder in your heart of hearts the fact that the Sabbath is part of creation week and that it will continue in the new earth. If the Holy Spirit does not convict you on this truth, then far be it from me to say what you should do. Praise God, I am not the Judge!
Scott - I assume you are talking about quoting scripture. I am in good company here. When Jesus was tempted, He didn't talk in platitudes, but quoted scripture. Paul also "determined to speak only of Christ and Him crucified" to the Corinthians. I can talk about how I "feel" just as well as anybody else, but if I don't have scripture, ity is just that - feelings.
Onward and upward...
This message has been edited by gpmiller on Jul 7, 2009 11:24 AM
Are you sure Galen that the whole root of legalism in you has been offered up to Christ? Have you purged out the old leaven? You say that it is either the scriptures or feelings but there is a third level and this level is the glorious level, it is the dynamo of Christ within us who fulfills the whole law! The law is all about Love and the transgression of Love at one level or another.
We have come from quite legalistic backgrounds and legalism can take many turns before it shows itself for what it is. My own home was one of the strongest in the Holdeman organization in this matter and widely known for that.
I spoke with an Amish man in Florida when I lived there [I could mention his name], who was a Holdiman for some years. When he found out who I was he immediately exclaimed as much; Your Daddy was the only one in that whole church that was legal enough about matters, so I left and went back to the Amish. The old leaven was not being purged out at that time in this man. I hope by now it's different with him. [By the way Galen I bought me a flat-brimed black felt Amish hat and they stuck it in a see-through plastic bag. As I walked out of their store in Ohio many of them were eyeing me closely, I can tell you that].
The law of Moses is the shadow of Christ Jesus. He alone is our righteousness from within us! We are dead to the whole law for righteousness if indeed we are in Christ! The legal level of things that speaks of God's rest, is the natural Sabbath day. Natural things point to Spiritual things. First the natural and then the Spiritual, said the apostle. The natural Sabbath day is the pointer, this is the shadow pointing us toward the Sabbath rest that is in Him! Indeed I keep the Sabbath! Any unrest that is in me I take to Christ and He causes me to keep Sabbath once again!
The shadows, the pointers, i.e. legalism seems so right and proper if the need for it is still in us. That need in us is the root problem of this. This root will rob us of restoration at some level in Christ! It's not about Heaven at the end if we'll just get all our ducks in one row doctrinally, rather it's about restoration of the whole man by entering into the Kingdom of Heaven in the here and now! We have a now-gospel in Christ!
We are to purge out the old leaven of legalism for this sake. This leaven is lead in the britches. This leaven is our enemy and it will not leave on it's own. Until we identify a thing, [whatever it is] it will not be dealt with in Christ!
Is it for righteousness sake that you keep the shadow of the Sabbath? You have not as yet spoken to this. You do not need to answer that here but we all do well to answer that toward God.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 7, 2009 12:06 PM
"Is it for righteousness sake that you keep the shadow of the Sabbath? You have not as yet spoken to this."
Well, Jesus said it is becoming to fulfill all righteousness in Matt. 3:15, but no, I do it because the Bible says to. I appreciate your "heart religion" and pray that you will be in the kingdom. The Bible tells us the road is narrow that leads to life and few there be that find it. (Matt.7:14) I feel you are taking the broad road of "Jesus did it all and I don't have to do anything." While Jesus DID pay the whole price for sin, He didn't leave us with nothing to do but speak pleasant platitudes. God's word says "faith without works is dead," and it says "by their fruits ye shall know them," and it says "not the hearers of the law will be justified, but the doers of the law."(Romans 2:13)
I could go on using the "hard drive" as you call it. But in closing may I say "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it."
I'm not sure who your family is as I apparently wasn't on here when you introduced yourself. I am the grandson of Frank H. Wenger, so I too have some pretty deep roots. Is your family someone I would know?
We may be kinfolk but I doubt it. Frank Wenger was quite balanced for a Mennonite, I would not call him a legalist, maybe some overtones of it. He was my great uncle by marriage. His first wife was my great aunt. That makes Harry Wenger my Dad's first cousin. Harry as well was not what I would call a strict legalist.
Figure it out from there if you can. My Dad has mellowed a whole lot in his latter years so far as the meanness of the letter is concerned, but he is still a legalist when it comes down to it. He walks after the letter of the word to the greatest degree [the word says it, I practice it realm] rather than from the Spirit that lies out beyond the Word! The idea is that if I walk according to the letter, I am now walking in the Spirit! That precisely is what the old leaven does to our minds. Let all who have the Spirit make sure that they walk in the Spirit, it says!
The Spirit works His own righteousness in those who are actually recreated, we do not have to follow after the letter to be approved of God now. Somehow we become dead to that realm by actually being alive to the Christ within us! He supercedes it all! He actually recreates us, we're a new creation, all things have become new and old things have passed away. He within us is all our righteousness! He cannot be beat!
You say you hope I will make it into the Kingdom; I sincerely thank you for your heart in that.
I have already been translated into His Kingdom and that is why and how I can live from the center of my being! I completely believe in this translation! I live like I do because I am already saved from the state of sin. I do not walk by the Spirit in this new creation so that I will be saved one day. How else can we approach the realm of being more than conquerors!
There was a time before this translation into His Kingdom when I also lived from the spontaneity of my heart; the spontaneity at that time caused me to seriously sin! The lines of demarkation were clearly drawn when this occurred. I am no longer of the world, why not? I'm just not. I look around me and see that I'm still in it and I'm okay with that.
He's alright!
Col.1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness and has translated un into the Kingdom of His dear Son.
This same apostle testified that the life he now lived was no longer he that liveth it but He who lives in him was now living His life through him. Indeed the religion of the recreated heart!
Galen; when I began to think it through I believe that we are kinfolk; second cousins I believe.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 7, 2009 4:50 PM
Every believer born of the Spirit of God has been translated into the Kingdom of the God's Son. It is less than living Faith to now begin to add ordinances and precepts to one's life in hopes of at some point of entering into what one has already entered into. Many born again believers are trying to become what they already are, and that is this thing called [approved of God! Shame dies hard and with it goes our negative fears.
Within every believer who is born of His Spirit there is that which now saves or restores the believer! It's Christ Jesus in us our hope of glory! This mystery was withheld from the old covenant prophets and is now uncovered to the New Covenant believers! It's the actual power of God! The same power that raised Christ from the dead now dwells in us.
Take hold of Eternal Life it says! We can apprehend [or take hold] of what we have been apprehended for.
The reason that believers and groups of born again believers add righteous precepts and ordinances to their lives is to maintain or sustain God's approval. These could take ahold of Eternal Life in a way that they would feel no need of those actions.
There is always a reason for what we do and sometimes we're not aware of the reason. The precept and ordinance add-ons to the Spirit of Grace occur because we do not [realize] just how great a thing happened [in] us when we were born of His Spirit! We can [realize] how great and powerful He is within us! We can take hold of His greatness and His righteousness that is engrafted or implanted [in] us! The inheritance of the believer is in the believer! This is better preaching than we realize!
Eph. chapter one versus eighteen and nineteen. That the eyes of our understanding may be enlightened, that we may know what is the hope of His calling and may also know what the riches of His glory are, which is His inheritance [in] the believers. And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power!
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 8, 2009 8:09 AM
Frank Wenger's first wife was a Dyck. Your Mother and Harry and Paul and maybe more were from this first wife. This first wife of Frank was a sister to Dave Dyck who was my Grand Daddy. I think that makes us second cousins.
No not I'm not from California but I have a whole lot of connections there so far as kinfolk is concerned. Greg Dyck is my double first cousin. Greg was one of those little tiny cousins at the time who would come around.
Byron is that your real name and where do you hail from, I bet you have a last name.
This message has been edited by doug-64 on Jul 8, 2009 4:19 PM
Sorry Doug, I missed that part where you asked who I was. Yes, my name is Bryon Schmidt. Born in California and living in Texas. I remember as a boy your uncle Harvey cutting my hair.
This message has been edited by anotherwonderer on Jul 14, 2009 3:54 AM
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