<<< To those of you that have tried to get me to respond earlier on this thread about an observation I made to Cupcake. It was an observation only and I don't intend to defend, explain or reason....>>>>

There we have. He is not going to answer? Why? Because he cannot. His initial comment to Cupcake was a terrible mistake with no way to save face....but no problem, here is Foreal's way out of the bind. He needs a certain situation to save face. He silently watches the forum for a certain condition that he needs. He can't post because if he reveals his presence, then everyone know that he is refusing to answer the impossible question from A.T. Lowen, so he pretends to not be around. He patiently waits for a thread that gets a little raw and out of hand (like the recent one with Cupcak and Foamhead) and then he can feign offense to his refined dignity and Christian love. So, the moment the lunch room food fight is in full swing, he jumps in and offers this as a bogus reason for not answering A.T. Lowen's extremely penetrating and shaming question to Foreal. Read his following post to see this in action.


<... as I am disgusted also at some of the behaviour I see from so called well meaning folk. I have also found it does not produce desirable results to "chat up" the playground bullies that seem to have become very dominant on this forum.>>>>

Now read this. It is amazing how obvious and transparent this slippery Church man is, and yet he thinks he's fooling us.

<< For that reason, I offer no excuses or defense of any behaviour you may point out as I feel it is pointless and it leads to excuses to continue your intimidation. >>>>


And the funnies part of all that Foreal miscalculated is this. You all need to really get this. Foreal tells us that he can't answer the hard question because of the playground bullies here, but A.T. Lowen posed a respectful question with no bullying and Foreal pretends to be absent, but when the playground bullies start, thats when Foreal shows up. That is so fricking funny. Foreal refuses to answer the hard question when there is no bullying, but jumps in the fray when the bullying starts and gives as a reason, that he can't stand the bullying. We see you Foreal!

Distilling it down:

Foreal says he can't participate here because the playground bullies offend his sensitive refinement, but he shows up when the playground bullies are going at it, which allows him to posture, pose, and preen. Foreal needs the playground bullies. They give his self-rightness a vehicle for expression, but worse yet, without the bullies, it may become obvious that he never answers the hard questions but ALWAYS feigns absence from the forum. If Foreal really didn't like the bullies, he would engage in some respectful answers regarding the cupcake/Lowen thread, and not pop up when the bullies come around. WE SEE YOU FOREAL!

Oh Yeah I hear you quite well Scott, you just simply don't bother me as I know your agenda quite well by now. There is nothing I can or will say that would please someone like you and I have no desire to pursue that direction. I also have a very full life, very, very busy. I will not play "Ring around the Rosie" and "Drop the Handkerchief" with you, life is calling and I will go.
I offer you my friendship but no answers as I have none to give at this time. Forreal

For(UN)real... another question.... are you patterning your responses on this forum according to the example of JESUS? It's difficult for me to determine whether you are personally aquainted with CHRIST or if you are using a different role model??? (Henry Clifford Kinley? L. Ron Hubbard?)

Also.... did JESUS only answer questions when it was personally convenient? I read that he was willing to testify of the FATHER in season and out of season.
Is there a new season?

Not only the law is full of hard objects that hurt and destroy rather than add life to others. Hardcore truth at a thousand levels can become these hard objects which are thrown at others, this does not gender life either.

If and when I have done this, I apologize. It has not been my intent to do this.

Much life-changing truth is carried about in the [old oaken bucket] of religion and it's settings. Some of the views on this forum are so opposite on the surface that it seems to require crushing the head of the opposing slant, to make the point. That's ironic.

I'll go back to God's speciality and that is His Love in us for each other.

Actually Forreal, the energy that comes through your last post is that I bother you very much. Hey, honestly, I wouldn't know how to save my credibility if I was in your predicament.

But quite frankly, "bothering" you is not my purpose. Exposing your slipperiness is. Question: why does the word "slippery" so often seem appropriate when dealing with "Church men" who are defending turf, agenda, and "candy stick" doctrines?

I would say that my "speech" on this forum has been inappropriate many times in the past. Almost all of this was due to my grief and rage at losing my family, and for sure, very little (if any) was due my concern that your Church has some benign error which I feel responsible for correcting. Oh no! I could care less, and a cursory examination of my relationship to CGCM before my ex-wife became involved proves that. However, I do believe that in spite of being confrontive and impolite in my passion(s), I have always tried to stick to the topic. That is why I have often combed through yours, Hank's, TR's, et. al. posts line-by-line debunking them. Your inability and/or refusal to do this is remarkable.

Scott, I don't know why you and the A.T.L.'s demand the Holdemans answer you. You've said yourself they can't give a right answer because their whole premise or foundation is wrong, or something like that.

Brent

Scott, was the question I asked Forreal too difficult?

Can you tell me why my questions are not/can not be answered by the H??

Also.... did JESUS only answer questions when it was personally convenient? I read that he was willing to testify of the FATHER in season and out of season.


Matthew 26:60b-63a
At the last came two false witnesses,
And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
But Jesus held his peace,

I venture to say that the reason Forreal may not be responding to your posts is for the same reason Jesus did not respond in these verses.

TR, I know you are accusing me of being a "FALSE WITNESS". And that you are attempting to transfer the blame and focus to me. By asserting that I'm making false claims such as "I will destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days". Explain how I am a "FALSE WITNESS". By asking a polite question????????

A.T.,

No, I wasn't really calling you a "false witness", I was more thinking in terms of you playing the part of the high priest in this scenario.

TR;

What you did TR was unscholarly. Forreal was not on trial for the sins of the world here and in a hurry to get to the Cross to unload the burden. The reasons must be totally different and I am not saying what Forreal reasons were for his non-answer.

Jesus was rushing the trial along! Jesus was not defending Himself for the reason that there was something far larger already in progress.

What you did TR was typically an Annabaptist thing, not only a Holdeman thing. This is how certain things get set in motion historically and the thing then becomes exclusive and self-right. By getting to a certain belief first and then go to the scriptures to establish it's validity is not scholarly.

Special [claims to fame] usually follow this maneuver. I am not saying here that tradional Annabaptist doctrine is that of a cult but I will tell you this; christian type cults are formed in the manner mentioned above.

Let us be scholarly of heart and mind or let us leave the book sealed. I am saying that to all of us.

Doug,

Jesus was not defending Himself for the reason that there was something far larger already in progress.

Exactly. Same principle. Jesus couldn't have forced them to understand if he'd have tried.

TR;

You're not all bad, you're a cabinet maker! I kinda like you but it appears in a funny kind of way that you may have been raised Holdeman. You must not be one of those who joined later. You reason like a Holdeman person reasons. It's not easy getting away from that; finally it becomes genetic.

The Holdeman organization is certainly not higher than average quality in christendom and the sooner that's realized the sooner great growth in the Spirit of the Lord can occur.

I will say this, there is a whole lot worse ways to be raised; I have seen some pitiful situations. I recently for Father's day wrote and told my Dad how thankful I was for the honest business mind he instilled in me, honor toward God, respect for other human beings and their properties, and taking me fishing when I was a tot while he would read the U.S. and World News.

The type deception the Holdeman people embrace concerning their righteousness and their approval by God, does not deny them the first works of salvation, but it will certainly hold individuals back from the possibility of full and complete restoration! Is that not a good thing to reach for? Possibly that is thought of as no great thing so long as men can retain some kind of claim to super-approval.

We can get into the punch lines and into the details of Christ's Gospel if you want. Talking church is like a dying ember but talking Christ Jesus is powerful and up-lifting!

Doug, you're a good guy too, but I'm trying to figure out what being a cabinet maker has to do with anything...

Anyway, back to the issue, my first post in this thread was simply a possible response to A.T. inquiry. Sometimes, whether you've been raised Holdeman or not, it is best to simply not respond, for no other reason that no one will profit from the response anyway, whether it is true or not.

TR;

Cabinet making is a wholesome and good trade. That was a tongue in cheek remark I made.

I was once in court for a boating violation, the judge peered down at me and said; I see you're not all bad, you have a boat! A boat is considered to be a good family thing in many places.

To ATL and Scott: Do you guys read Braille? I may have to switch to that as it looks like written communication you simply don't understand. I have repeated over and over that I do not answer some of these questions because I also have doubts about the validity of some of the H teaching. In every church or faith there will be things that are questioned and not fully understood. I have been studying trying to determine what I believe. Why would you demand an answer when I have stated repeatedly that I have no answers many times. I would like to hear answers myself. This indeed would be hypocritical and untrue for me to defend a system that I also question at times. I personally think if the H organization is founded upon The Rock Christ Jesus, it will be a haven for souls that are seeking salvation. Time will tell, if it fails to be that succor, people will not find fulfillment in their Christian lives and they will eventually be called out. God will be the judge of that, certainly not me. I am not trying to be slippery or deceptive whatsoever, and I think you know better than that and anybody that knows me well personally would disagree with your assessment. It looks like there is a hanging jury convened here and I guess you'll have to find another felon to hang. I have always been afraid of a noose!! Your questions on the face seem to be rather innocent but many times are meant to be a trap. That is exactly why Jesus wasted no time with lawyers, preferring out right sinners over those that had smooth, deceptive speech. I am not writing to gain your approval, that matters very little to me. If your reading comprehension is too limited to digest my simple dialog I would suggest you ask any of your relatives, (Scott) that know me what I am like in person. Ask them if I am honest or a "slippery character" . I know most of your extended family. I do not intend to address this issue again. I do not have time to read extensively on this forum anymore and at best I just skim a little. I am running my enire operation by myself at the present and I don't have the luxury of time to set idly pounding away on a computer keyboard or reading a lot of posts. Forreal

<<< I have repeated over and over that I do not answer some of these questions because I also have doubts about the validity of some of the H teaching>>>

Sorry about that. If I had understood your point which you have made very clear now, I would not have pressed the question.

Scott, always remember that silence in and of itself is a judgment of "no contest"

It is admissible in court, and is basicly what almost all judicial takings are based on.

If you get a ticket, and "don't show" the silence is an admission of guilt and will judge the fault, by default.

Now Foreal is being completely fair in assesing his answer.

. Why would you demand an answer when I have stated repeatedly that I have no answers many times. I would like to hear answers myself. This indeed would be hypocritical and untrue for me to defend a system that I also question at times.

And I see now that the above post of yours recognizes this.

Anyone that "goes to church" is probably going to one with some errors in the official teaching, certainly the Holdies are! But so are all other denominations, for to denominate in and of itself is probably error!

And Forreal, conviction will come by the Holy Ghost, get a hold of God, and the bible in the secret place, Toss out all the theology books of long dead men, and get your convictions from the bible, and you will not find a struggle. The bible is true when applied to the heart by the infilling of the Holy Ghost, and is all you need to find salvation!


And to top this thought off, your own teaching allows this, for the 18 articles of faith, which your "denomination gives deceptive lip service toward, states:

18 articles of faith
V. THE LAW OF CHRIST, i.e., THE HOLY GOSPEL OR THE NEW TESTAMENT


...neither angel nor man may alter it, nor add to it nor take away from it; and that He caused the same, as containing the whole counsel and will of His heavenly Father....

So Foreal, your battle is not over some hard to understand thing, but rather it is a battle of the dominion of Satan vs God, since the Conference is in the clutches of the evil one and as such has "added to it" and your battle over it's complex interpretation, vs the bible which has a much easier to swallow, simpler one that is pulling for your soul, but will land you safely outside the lying wonder of the satanic stronghold of ministerial and conference idolatry your people call the "church" but which grinds up honest Christians that dare to be a Daniel, and dare to speak the truth.






May God richly Bless your day!