Hank, you have discussed at times the church and what it is. The following response of Menno to Gellius is about as accurate of my personal view as you can get. I'm not really looking to discuss this, as my time is somewhat limited, but have been wanting to post this, my personal belief, regarding the church, for some time.

Gellius accusation: In the fourth place he writes, "That they, invisible to the eyes of man, which cannot search the heart, but only before the eyes and judgment of God, are the true church of Christ and of God, which are found in the visible church, that is among the number of the elect; since God, through the preaching of his holy gospel and through the use of his powerful sacraments, powerfully works in them, and whereby many are again born unto life everlasting, who are only known to Him who knows his people, and who searches the hearts of men. These are the true bride of Christ.

Answer. In part I admit this to be right, however with this understanding; that the visible church, in which the invisible (as he calls them) should be included, must be salutary in doctrine, sacraments and ordinances, and unblamable in life before the world, so far as man, who is able to judge only that which is visible, can see.

Since it is clear as day that Gellius and his like preachers are blamable in every thing, because they adulterate the word of God, abuse the sacraments, flatter the world, upbraid the pious, do not separate their church from the world, and none of their disciples reprove such open transgressions and abuses, but every one is satisfied with his doctrines and sacraments, follows maintains them; therefore they all act the hypocrite, walk up on the broad way, hate the cross of Christ and lay it upon others. Nothwithstanding all this, that the invisible church should still be among them, I cannot admit; and for this reason; for I know to a certainty that it never fails, that where the true church of Christ is, there she will be made manifest among this wicked and perverse generation by words and work, for she can as little be hidden as a city upon a hill, or a candle upon a candle-stick, Matt. 5:14; Phil. 2:15

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Reader, understand what I mean; we do not dispute about whether or not there are some of the chosen ones of God, in the before mentioned churches; for this we, at all times, humbly leave to the just and gracious judgment of God, hoping there may be many thousands who are unknown to us, as they were to holy Elias;, but our dispute is, in regard to what kind of Spirit, doctrine, sacraments, ordinances and life, Christ has commanded us to gather unto him an abiding church, and how we should maintain it in his ways.


This, I feel, is the basis of the CGCM view as well. It requires a belief in the saving grace of God, and a belief that the power of God will keep one from from the bondage of sin, and will give a person a heart at peace with his Maker, even when tormented by evildoers as the martyrs were.

The "drift" that has been spoken of in times past here and in church meetings reflect a reluctance of individuals to "be made manifest among this wicked and perverse generation by words and work". Instead, there is an ever present tendency to blur the lines between truth and sin, as other churches are doing today. There is a fear of living a faithful life, as though such a thing would cause a man to become dependent on, and rely on his works for his salvation, instead of humbly and obediently following the Holy Spirit. Other churches have long passed this point (if they were ever in a position to pass it), and these other beliefs are largely where this pull away from simply following the Spirit originate.

As such, this can only mean a lack of complete obedience and submission to the Holy Spirit (not to be confused with a lack of opportunity to know the truth, i.e. the pure doctrine of Christ, of which teaching the church has embraced).

Thanks. Now I see the blur a little more clearly.

", hoping there may be many thousands who are unknown to us,"

"As such, this can only mean a lack of complete obedience and submission to the Holy Spirit (not to be confused with a lack of opportunity to know the truth, i.e. the pure doctrine of Christ, of which teaching the church has embraced)."

TR; we could discuss this more in greater detail, however, if you claim to be the true church in the line of Menno Simons then I would think your doctrines/positions should line up with his.

Two things:(1) Our Anabaptist brethren's writings continue to refer to the church outside of which there is no salvation. They understood that in the context of Jesus' teachings, all who believed (John 3:16) were in the assembly (church) of Christ. If you do not accept this you will have a difficult time reconciling what they write. (2) They do not refer to "one true organized visible worldwide church" as John Holdeman taught. They say that in whatever church true doctrine is found, these are true churches. You, nor your conference would agree with that... unless agreement was reached by these others to accept your re-baptism and only your cup and bread of communion, confessing with you that any other bread and cup participation is worthy of Satan's domain.

On the 2nd point, Rueben Koehn waters this down, when he writes that others have the same right to make a claim of "true church". As Brent wrote elsewhere, I believe RK was a man who understood more then what church leadership after him pursued. And further, it is very clear that CGCM has strayed from Anabaptist points made in the "33 Articles of Faith". Not only on "church", but other issues as well.

So TR, God will bless you as you seek to honor Him through your devotion and service to Jesus Christ. These blessings are available to all and experienced wherever Christ is honored and followed with an honest heart of faith.