This parable and rebuke was inspired by Scott's last posts to me on the "Holdeman Persecution" thread. Those posts were cleverly written to cast public doubt on my understand. They were like a trespass to me.

Scott,

You're talking and living out of the tool shed of beautiful edifices that have their foundation in the bed rock, symbolic of sovereignty, order and perfection. Your writings are frantic. They fit you like a glove. Your pen knows you well, but you don't know yourself. You act like the Holdemans have a stronger energy than yourself or any other religious person or people. They don't! The world view don't go looking for the special energy of any one group. All religious energy boils down to the same thing. You've locked on the Holdemans like an animal in heat. The world view don't define a cult by any sect's disgruntled members or exmembers. Every religion and sect has bitter occupants that call their religion all sorts of names, true or untrue. It means nothing, unless it happens to confirm a world view. But even at that, why should an outsider beat his head against a wall by going from one sect to another trying to find the right definition of a cult when he can with one simple swipe determine what a cult is by what he understands about the ordained institution of his land or country.

This world is bigger, nay, this country, nay, the state of Colorado, then the little world, you Mr. Scott deals in. Scott, you've run into the same thing all religions eventually run up against - that they increasingly have to defend a smaller and smaller world by agenda, doctrines, distinctions and connived device. This is because they can't keep from preaching, spouting and pouring forth their claimed things until the world gets tired of it and tries them. Then they have to pull in and pull in and pull in, defending a smaller and smaller thing. This is the way of cults.

If a man had to find truth like you look for it Scott, they would utterly despair unless they had gobs and gobs of religious energy, and even at that, they wouldn't get half way there, because like I said, all religious energy boils down to the same thing and eventually nothing, leaving the false seekers with a teeny weeny world view long before the truth was attained. You totally, utterly, flatly reject the order, science, spirit, beauty, purity of things, to say nothing of the ordainness of them.

I don't deny that when one closes the door on the tool shed long enough, they forget about the imposing castle and beautiful gardens outside. They see their tools of device all in a duck's row on the wall, hear no evil, see no evil, feel no evil, face no evil, and everything is summed up nicely for them in the shelter of the tool shed. They've got rid of all their responsibilities, their cross is free, their religion has no correction or judgment in it, and they don't have to answer to the King anymore. They say All King is in them. But the Real King has a handle on all things, including the tool shed.

Brent

I have no idea what your parable means. Perhaps you should try saying it in English. I thought of this however. If the government labeled you a cult, would you accept this?

"I have no idea what your parable means. Perhaps you should try saying it in English."

Scott,

Don't play dumb. You know what I said. Just in case you don't, you've went across country and border to learn another language. Then learn mine.

Brent

Brent, If the government labeled you a cult, would you accept this?

"Brent, If the government labeled you a cult, would you accept this?"

Scott,

Have you answered all my questions???

You and the A.T.L.'s are now trying to pry the answers you need out of people so you can feel good about yourselves again. It's becoming a disease with you.

And Scott, if you think I haven't seen that you've labeled me a cult, think again. Why do you try to push it off on the government? Be a man and directly charge me with it so I can take you to war.

Brent

<<< Why do you try to push it off on the government? Be a man and directly charge me with it so I can take you to war. >>>

You should know this about me by now. My method of choice to make a point is use the other person's point of view and turn it back on them. So we all know that you have asserted countless times on this forum that CGCM is not a cult because the USG does not recognize them as a cult. In other words, you depend on the authority of the standing government to decide what is a cult and what isn't. So I am asking you again, if the USG called you a cult, would you accept this?

"So I am asking you again, if the USG called you a cult, would you accept this?"

Scott,

Are you admitting I'm a government, or are you calling me a government?

Brent

neither, I am asking if you would accept the authority of the USG in this matter if they called you a cult................or would you be inclined in that situation to argue with their authority?

Well I need a government before your question works.

Brent

you have one. You have the personal authority you have written so much about. That is your government. Now can you answer this simple, clear question, or or do we need to iron out some other distractions first.

"or or do we need to iron out some other distractions first."

"you have one. You have the personal authority you have written so much about. That is your government. Now can you answer this simple, clear question, or or do we need to iron out some other distractions first."

No Scott, you need to iron this out and quit changing your mind. You said I was "neither" and that was correct.

I don't make laws with my personal authority and I don't force others with it.

Brent

Brent, if the USG called you a cult, would you accept it?

Edited because I'm trying to learn to keep the emotional/personal element out of the argument.

This might help us.

Sometimes our logic only works for us. I have been in the South for many many years. There are people in the South who have an illiterate type of logic. The west, east, and north are not exempt.

When I first came South some 40 years ago I had the privilege of meeting an interesting man at the counter in an auto-parts store. This is what transpired. It had rained consistantly and constantly all winter long and I made the remark that I sure wish it would stop raining and that the rivers whould go back into their banks and out of the cotton fields. Our particular work depended on dry weather.

I had seen illiterate reasoning when it comes to Spiritual things from childhood but this was my first graphic encounter with illiterate reasoning in the natural realm. I consider myself privileged to have observed this.

This gentleman remarked to my statement; I have watched this in this Delta for twenty years now he said. He further replied to me; oh no it does not need to stop raining and that we need one more huge rain which will make the water in the river more slicker and then the river water will just skeet on out and go down! This was a form of logic but it wasn't according to accurate information. This man was simply speaking of the [last] rain of the season after which the rivers go down, but he thought the waters in the river got more slicker by one more huge rain! His thoughts produced a new language form. To him his view and dialogue was absolutely accurate.

This is not to denigrate illiteracy and it's reasoning abilities but rather to recognize it and continue to love everyone. If I think in an illiterate manner and speak in an illiterate fashion, then I do well to not be dogmatic about my ideas, because [my ideas] may well not be in accordance with accurate information. With all our getting we do well to get accurate understanding as well.

The human race has been full of this type thing because we actually started from scratch. Inherantly every man and woman has been guilty of this in past times. We do well to learn from those who have accurate information.

"Of the other trees in the garden you may freely eat." Information of every kind has started from scratch. The revelation of God himself has started from scratch. Science also is an art which has started from scratch; science so-called has much inaccurate information in it, but accurate science is accurate information. To think in terms that we prematurely ought to agree on anything, becomes a simple miscarriage of good motive. All these things will dove-tail with the other finally because there is truth in them all. All truth runs parallel!

Let us be humble with accurate information or we will become a conglomerate collection of bufoons. Let us love one another.

A little bit in a nutshell can go a long way.

Edited for spelling corrections.

Scott,

Your questions hold no water but you force them like a dam. That's why I can't answer your questions. Don't blame me for that.

But I'll fall into your game for a little bit, and again ask you, how many of my questions have you and your cohorts left unanswered?

Scott, you're as much the Forreal's and Hank's as anybody. That's why you can't stand it.

Brent

Produce your question that I have not answered. You bring your charge. Now bring your evidence. Do it NOW Brent!

<<< Your questions hold no water but you force them like a dam. That's why I can't answer your questions. Don't blame me for that. >>>

My question holds no water? You assert that it is government that decides what is and is not a cult. So I ask you if you would accept governments decision if it went against you personally, and you cannot answer a simple yes or no answer. I don't "blame" you per se for not answering, but it reveals so much it is incredible.

I answered you Scott, it just wasn't in the way you was trying to force me to answer.

Scott writes, "So I ask you if you would accept governments decision if it went against you personally".

No! you asked me if I would accept governments decision if I was a cult, or that's what you implied. No, cults are seditious and hateful towards governments. They don't receive anything, the evidence is also on this forum. Sedition of the cults and religion is what gets them in trouble with governments.

Your whole question to me was a trick, and I caught it. That's your problem now.

Now a question for you Scott. Are the Holdemans a cult beings they're not outwardly seditious???

Brent

<<< you asked me if I would accept governments decision if I was a cult, or that's what you implied. No, cults are seditious and hateful towards governments.>>>

There! Finally! You did answer my question. So it is NOT about the government's decision, but about our own assessment/evaluation. It took a little coaxing, but you have just totally refuted your own argument, which is the answer I was wanting, and of course, I knew the only answer you could give. I knew all along you didn't believer your own sh*t, but I had to "try" you a little for you to see it yourself. You have endlessly stated how important it is to have our beliefs tried. There, I have tried you and found your belief wanting. I will expect a thank you card in the mail. No charge for my services this time, have a nice day!

Scott,

The government decision has only been one of my arguments.

What are some of my other famous arguments you haven't received either?......Like if a people begin to openly assert their beliefs in their communities and before their neighbors, and their neighbors begin to withdraw from them, or turn their nose up at them on the streets, begin to shun them in business, and for this the religious people begin to withdraw into a tighter and tighter community. Haven't these kinds of arguments been my definition of a cult too that you have scorned me to no end for because I wouldn't receive you pet definition of a cult. Just because I said a higher government made it official don't mean there's wasn't an encroachment of a cult going on which I already wrote about on this thread.

It's these kinds of arguments I've used and others to show why I believe the Holdeman aren't a cult yet that are not my personal assessments. I have left the assessments to the governments, the communities they live in, to their neighbors, to those they do business with. You Scott, you're the one that has touted up personal assessments as an official definition of a cult - the lowest, weakest, powerless channel to affirm anything. I've keep my hand and hurt out of it. I've used the world view to call the shots, not my own personal vendetta. You've wallowed in your bitter corner day and night trying to cast the Holdemans as a cult, and none of it is adding up anymore.

I don't know where I have ever flatly stated the government call was the only manifestation of a cult. That's your dream Scott, not mine.

I don't know if you actually believe you got one up on me or if it's just another one of your games, but if you do believe it after you was found so wanting on this thread, then in the end if you believe you won, you scorn the loser, you're a low life. If I would have lost the argument, your scorn and taunting and jesting alone would have annulled your win.

I hurt today because I would rather save your face than rub your nose in your errors. Never Scott have I felt good by showing you up. I defend my ground because your accusations of me are wrong, your insinuations are lies, your misrepresentations of me believable to the gullable because of your clever writing. Those things I will not let stand. And those things take hard words that sober me up also. You've become a rattlesnake to me and I have no other option anymore but to handle you accordingly.

Brent

Brent you're an artist with heart and Scott's a brain with heart. I really think we can do some better here. You do not have to be wary about one another. Neither one of you have a bite that has any real punch, teeth yes, but no real punch.

I appreciate you both. Scott has helped me sharpen my pencil and you Brent have helped me to see the beauty around us!

Forgive me for being so objective.