Two Letters


Here are parts of two letters that have passed through my hands in the last few days:

"As of the end of September, 225 of our parish families are behind in their financial pledges to the parish. In addition to that, we have 263 families that did not turn in a pledge card at all. With numbers like that it is no wonder why we are struggling financially. If you are behind in your pledges, be prepared to receive correspondence from me in the very near future. You would save me and our staff an enormous amount of time by getting your pledges caught up right away. I would also point out that in November we will be doing our annual Stewardship Renewal. I hope those of you without pledge cards currently turned in will make a commitment this year during the renewal of getting those turned in."

"All it would take to stop our poor offerings is for every member to tithe. Not just to give, but to tithe 10% of your income to your home church. This would solve every financial problem we have. But it wont work if just a few of us do this. Right now that is whats happening. A few faithful tithers are supporting the rest. Perhaps, as part of our overall call to renewal, God is putting this issue before us and not letting us go forward unless everyone agrees to this Kingdom principal. Your compliance with this therefore could be more critical than you know. It could very well mean the life and existence of our church. Only time will tell."


Now the above got me to thinking about something Fred posted on a thread: "Tithing" back on December 21st 2007. And I began to wonder if he had ever found that PC copy.

Now I have heard plenty preaching on 2 Corinthians 9:6 "Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously." But these two men seem to have forgotten 2 Corinthians 9:7 "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

Just once I would like to see a sermon given on a "cheerful" giver. Not for the giving part but the "living how" part. Looking here at, if God loves a cheerful giver then how does He look upon an uncheerful giver? See, to me these two letters produce lots of the un-cheerful kind. Before one can become a giver one needs to first become cheerful. Oh but the church keeps teaching the "un", thinking there is more money it that, like only the "un-forgiven" will continue to need them. Poor souls mistaking the church for the Kingdom.

Back to Freds article. Now I cant count the times that I have listened to the 10% tithe, and it always ends with the gross vs. the net. But look at Freds post, here it is talking about increase. Now, would God be talking gross or net here? Maybe todays church has not been taught the principle of restoration. But, does not the farmer/rancher understand? If you start the year out with 100 sheep but lose one, however, but for the purpose of this point that one is dead, now again great rejoicing comes when one is born, or even paid for with a price. But is that gross or net? You end up with 100 just as you started, not an increase. The one has been restored to you. Now how can the church not understand that? Does not the bible say we have been restored? On the other hand, if you end up with more than what you started with, that would be your increase. Now you have a clear reference in the bible on giving from that.

But alas the church thinks in terms of receiving when it talks giving. They are talking easy to deal with income here, money. I like the food storehouse thing Fred brings up. Maybe the Mennonites are on to something with the potluck thing. But most church leadership would rather get money and buy food for those they think can be won by it. But just think of how the people you meet and your friends would receive the gospel if you invited them to a potluck every Sunday

Letter writers like these men just will not listen if you talk about "Wolfs" but maybe if you can decide which they are and talk Butchers, Bakers, and Candlestick makers.




edited for " marks only. They just do not paste well
One last edit-back to working title.

Here is an email I sent to a trusted Christian worker, after I heard him sort of stumbling over several irreconcilable issues.
This writing addresses the old testament tithe, once the old testament is understood, then from that shadow and type, one could understand the new testament system, and how it could only be one particular way. (freewill offering, all of the unsalaried elders and bishops running the church)



Tithing
The foundational scripture in the old testament law regarding tithing is found in Leviticus 27:30-32. This scripture would be called the foundational basis for the principles of tithing required by the old testament Law.
K.J.V Leviticus 27: 30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lords: it is holy unto the Lord.
Leviticus 27: 32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord.

Now though this tithe is found in the law, it is not clear in this passage how it is to be distributed.
For the distribution, you must look further and reconcile several verses and chapters.
To do this you need to take all the verses regarding tithing, and see where it goes, and then the remainder and amounts will be obvious.
If tithing according to the law is not understood, then a proper perspective regarding the issues for the Christian will be impaired.

several terms need to be carefully observed

heave offering
tithes
holy things
tithes of increase



The tithe of increase is not hardly argued by anybody to include a tithe of 10% of annual increase.

However the place it goes is universally misunderstood, basically it is cut into 4 pieces in the law: Several of these tithes won't reconcile until you understand all 4 of them, so you might have to read this several times.


1. The Poor Tithe or Third Year Tithe


This tithe is a tithe consisting of one years tithe out of 3,

Deuteronomy 14: 28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and thou shalt lay it up within thy gates:
Deuteronomy 14:29 And the Levite (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
After they faithfully rendered to the poor their due, they were to take the oath of God ecc 8:2 :
Deuteronomy 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates and be filled;
Deuteronomy 26:13 Then thou shalt say before the Lord thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them.


The second tithe.
The last category of tithe is sometimes called the Second tithe and Festivity tithe it is talking about the remaining portion of the first 10 % of the Israelite annual increase.
If you tithed one years tithe out of three, to the poor, the remainder is this tithe. This is where it is to be spent.
Deuteronomy 12:11. Then there shall be a place which the Lord your God shall choose, to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt-offerings, and your tithes, and your heave-offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the Lord:
The children of Israel would have a central assembly for gathering together to learn of Gods law.
Deuteronomy 12:17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil or the firstlings of thy herds of of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand.
These tithes were not to be consumed in the Israelites house.
Deuteronomy 12:18 But thou must eat them before the Lord thy God in the place which the Lord thy God shall choose, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates: and thou shalt rejoice before the Lord thy God in all that thou puttest thy hands unto.
But thou must eat them They may not eat them within their gates, and thou must eat them before the Lord, and if you read the obvious implication, it was okay to eat them out of their gates on the way to the feast.
De 14:26* And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Now there is a hard to grasp concept here but to reconcile the tithes you must "get it"
and that is the inheritance of the levites and the priests.


1. Numbers 18: 26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord, even a tenth part of the tithe.


The Levite took the heave offering from the Israelite tithes of increase that went to the Levite, or the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance. and gave them to the priest. there is a presumption here that the Levite got a "tithe of increase" but that verse doesn't say that it says "tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance' So to find out what their inheritance was you must go elsewhere.

What this verse however does establish is that a heave offering of what they get, goes to the priest.


it means is that the Levite was to Heave 10% of what they got from the Israelite and give it to Aaron the priest or the House of God. God condemned the Levite in Malachi 3 for not doing this.


Nu.18:28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the Lord of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the Lords heave offering to Aaron the priest.

The storehouse mentioned in Malachi 3:8-10 is where the heave offering the Levite made to Aaron was to go. The Israelite was not to pay the tithe to the storehouse, the Levite was. The storehouse was built by Hezekiah for the priests in the revival occurring in 2 Chron 30-31


So what exactly is the Levite's inheritance?

24* But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

Notice the Levite gets the heave offering of the holy things, and not all the holy things?

So off the top of the third year tithes, and the festivity tithes, the Israelite was to offer 10% of it to the Levite as a heave offering.

So wee see, 10% of annual increase went to the tithes, and is called "holy things

and is split this way

1. 10 percent of all holy things or 1% of annual increase goes to the Levite at the temple for service in the temple

2. Of the remaining 90 % or 9% of annual increase the split is one third to the poor, and

3. Two thirds to finance the family to go the festivals.

4. The Levite is to pay a full 10% to the priest

All it would take to stop our poor offerings is for every member to tithe. Not just to give, but to tithe 10% of your income to your home church. This would solve every financial problem we have.

yep, if they sent it all to me, it would stop all my financial problems too!

What they are asking for is simply not only not in scripture, it is actively reproved is scripture. For they are making "merchandise" out of the saints, and setting up a caste system where those that can "pay" are more worthy than those that can't, and 10 % is a ridiculously high amount to pay for a preacher to hypnotize you with high sounding platitudes and brow beatings once or twice a week, 10 % is probably 70% of the money you could actually put aside for a rainy day.

Vine, I would get out of that church! Gross, you can feel the slimy covetous spirit in the writing.

Vine;

There are altogether too many novices in the Gospel filling pulpits across the landscape. "Suffer not a novice to teach". These are not bad people but simply too young in Faith to properly lead.

In the building the lights are still on, the building needs repair, the mortgage is due, and the leader feels he must make it known. Novice ways of generating income are used many times even while it subtracts from spontaneity and cheerfulness among the people. Having been a pastor for many years I do understand this.

"Not out of necessity but cheerfully" The law of the tithe immediately necessitates giving, this law can destroy the cheerfulness of it. The real issue is this; we have been made dead to the law by being alive to Christ! If someone wants to challenges this last statement we can give scriptural evidence of this.

Abraham set the precedent for the tithe in one sense of the word and yet he did so quite spontaneously without thinking it might become a law. 10% is fine, 20% percent is fine, 30% percent of one's increase is fine. Can we imagine what might have occurred in the Levitical Priesthood toward their brethren if Abraham had cheerfully decided to give Melchisedec 50% or 80% of the spoils of that war? The Levitical law might read a whole lot differently than it does.

What is also fine to give is 1% or even one penny so long as one cheerfully and with freedom gives! I have seen street people with some real amount of smiles and joy put into the offering a few pennies and a nickle or a dime. They may have given 100% percent by so doing. It's about freely giving from the heart in the New Covenant, knowing in how God has so blessed us! It's not about paying one's tithe. Gifts are about being generous, all of them!

Additions to the original [law] demanded that the people pay their tithes to the Levitical Priesthood i.e. into the storehouse. That ordinance of law is dead and nailed to the cross of Jesus! Jesus made sure of this. It is fine to give 10% of the net increase and it is also fine to give 10% of the gross income so long as one does so cheerfully and in full freedom.

Nothing necessitates [giving] at all in the New Covenant, but along with the Spirit of the New Covenant comes a generous attitude! When will it dawn upon the Church that we are free? Even free to be generous. [Wherefore if you be dead with Christ from the rudiments,,,,,,why are you subject to ordinances? Touch not, taste not, handle not for these things will perish with the using of them.] They are of this world. Man was not made for the law; the law was made for man as a school master to lead us to Christ and once in Christ and Faith the school master is no longer needed. consider Col.2: 20-21-22. and Gal.3:24-25.

Many church groups operate their income and outgo on the principle of the tithe and therefore they may well be trying to operate far beyond what the living God is actually doing in that church setting.

Abraham did not institute a law or a necessity, he was cheerful and spontaneous about his gift because he saw that he was giving to the greater one! Heb. ch. seven.

Additions to the original [law] demanded that the people pay their tithes to the Levitical Priesthood i.e. into the storehouse.

Actually Doug, this statement is not true, so you may want to get hold of the difference. There is a huge difference between a Levite Priest, and a Levite minister.

The Levite minister was told to pay a tithe of the tithes they got as a heave offering from the children of Israel, he was to pay that to the priest, and the priest was the "store house" mentioned in 2 Chron 30,

So the rebuke about stealing tithes from the storehouse was to the Levite that was not a priest, but was a minister. He was stealing tithes from the store house or from the priest. The common man was never told to give tithes to the priest only the Levite was.

Rather the Levite minister (as apposed to the priest) was awarded a right to a heave offering
or a tithe of the tithes but they were to take them.



May God richly Bless your day!

Fred; Good correction, thanks my man.

I am supposing this is where certain pastors get their idea; [the ministers tithe out of the general fund] that comes in from the people. Not quite a perfect scenario but possibly their pattern.

Nothing perfect occurred in the Levitical Priesthood, if perfection had occurred there is no reason for a better Priesthood to arise, speaking of Christ Jesus! The law was exchanged for the perfect law of liberty! To me this means that a generous attitude from the heart is better than thinking in terms of the ordinance of the tithe. Heb.7:11.

At the risk of someone thinking I'm bragging I will relate my personal experience concerning the tithe and a more perfect way [at least for myself]. Some twenty years ago I began to get a glimpse of the type generosity that Christ within us promotes! I quite keeping record of the tithe altogether. For the first year after that I did keep a record of what I would cheerfully give by the impulse of the Spirit of the Lord. At the end of the year I had given the value of 43% of my income that year and never paid any attention to a tithe. Not all of this giving was money.

The tithe was out of mind and out of sight. Since then I don't keep a record at all and there are years that I am supposing that my giving does not approach the 43%. I hope there can be years ahead that it goes to ninety percent and I still have sufficient for my family. Money beyond the idea of generosity is a boring pursuit! However we all need a whole lot of it.

I once met a Christian man who went broke in business and owed every one on the block, so to speak. In generosity alone impulsed by the Spirit of the Lord, this man began to give more from his income than he kept for himself to live on. In a year or so he not only lived quite well but he had paid his debt off out of what he had kept for his own. God's math is not our math when it comes to generosity!

"I would get out of that church! Gross, you can feel the slimy covetous spirit in the writing."

Fred. Seems like a knee-jerk response. One had better ask God first.

Fred with your tithing method, how does the church pay the summer electric bill?
Or the salaries if its pastor/pastors,secretary? Or the sunday school material?
Or the $3700 a/c compressor I installed this year? Or what about the mission field
workers, the mission schools? Insurances? On and on.
I agree with part of the letter Vine put up. If your going to sign a committal to
tithe a certain amount,,, stick to it. Problem is, a 52" flat screen Sony, unplanned
vacations, dozens of other things become more important than what you committed to God.
Tithing IS Bibical, You dudes need to quit acting like holdemans, whereby YOUR money is
yours and not Gods. After all, did God run the tractor? The combine? No , I did, It's MINE.

Fred, forgot to thank you for sharing that e-mail.

I guess after going through the MB I don't look at my membership in the church as on the same level as with Christ. But you sure see lots of others that do. And I'm judged be some of them harshly for that stance.

Interestingly, the next sunday the sermon was on 1 Corinthians 5. And the program had a pic of a wolf on it!

Don't think now would be the time to point out errors.


About forgot, both of the letters are from different churches. I had some more I could have shared, picked those 2. But many of the people in my circle are hearing the same at their place of worship here, just shows the hard times. But those hard times are exposing some wolfs. In the paper this week there was a christian school that took out bankrupty. How sad to see families that are trying to give their children a christian education loose that atmosphere. Fred it was a Calvary Chapel school and it took two CC churches with it, they both filed bankrupty too.

YOUR money is
yours and not Gods. After all, did God run the tractor? The combine? No , I did, It's MINE.

Nas I tend to disagree. All of what I got is his. It is just up to me to manage it.

Howie, I took NAS was saying it was God's.

Fred with your tithing method, how does the church pay the summer electric bill?

Well, the electric bill is seldom the problem, more likely it is the salary of the worthy workers that are at stake. But first of all, I only presented what the bible says, take a look at it and find fault with my reconciliation, because I don't think you can. So the problem is not with my tithe system, but rather Gods'tithes system.

The balance of truth in scripture will always reconcile, if it is God's perfect way it is also flawless. And freewill offering with honesty that tithe is not to be "paid", but people may give if they are moved to do so, well that is God's way. The system should not spend money they don't have, and if the money doesn't come in, they shouldn't presume and pressure for more from those that may be burdened if they do even if they might be able to.

Paul clearly taught that they were not to "pull" for money, rather that he would come after the money was collected so as not to burden the congregation, and people.






Fred with your tithing method, how does the church pay the summer electric bill?
Or the salaries if its pastor/pastors,secretary? Or the sunday school material?
Or the $3700 a/c compressor I installed this year? Or what about the mission field
workers, the mission schools? Insurances? On and on.

2Co 9:7* Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

2Co 9:7* Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him pay at least 10%; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver and he will burn if he fail to pay it.

Nas, tithe is simply not in scripture for the new testament, it is rather a lie drummed up by those that benefit from it, if a group of people that want to "join" agree to pay a tithe then it is okay, for contract or consent takes precedent over scripture, if is not immoral. But honesty is an important element in the Christian walk, and if tithe is preached instead of reminding the people they promised when they joined, well that is a lie, and no liar has eternal life, so why would a tithe liar have eternal life more than a used car dealer liar? Especially since he benefits from the lie in the same way. Seems to me that is extortion.


I agree with part of the letter Vine put up. If your going to sign a committal to
tithe a certain amount, stick to it.

Go for it, I totally agree with this, a membership agreement has all that stuff spelled out clearly and makes it so you don't have to be dishonest to get money to pay the bills.

Problem is, a 52" flat screen Sony, unplanned
vacations, dozens of other things become more important than what you committed to God.

Actually Naz, what another man "gives" is simply no one else's business, and that is one of the problem of forced, or coerced "givings" it makes one feel like he is holier, if he gives more than the other.



Tithing IS Bibical, You dudes need to quit acting like holdemans, whereby YOUR money is
yours and not Gods. After all, did God run the tractor? The combine? No , I did, It's MINE.


Well It may have been old testament for the Israelite, but it is perfectly and completely without any witness in the New Testament and the principles involved in coerced takings are profoundly rebuked by Paul's writings.



It seems to me to build a church on a foundation of dishonesty doesn't much point toward a building that will stand in eternity




May God richly Bless your day!

Naz here is another thing to consider:

Heb 7: 5* And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

heb 7:18* For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Looking at this you can see that the heave offering that went to the Levite was done away.

However there is no new Testament teaching on a disanulling of the poor tithe (one year out of 3 to the poor that knock at your door)

Neither to the festivity tithes, which were used to finance the trip to the annual festivals, but consumed by those that earned the money they set aside as festivity tithe.

So I wonder how many tithers out there, have their worthy workers teach you about this when they teach paying tithes?

Deuteronomy 8:17 & 18 "And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of [mine] hand hath gotten me this wealth. But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for [it is] he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as [it is] this day."

Does that play into any of this discussion?

Lark that is a good scripture, what does it tell you?

Fred, your just like the "ain't no hell" group. You find every possible way to ram,cram twist scripture around so you can make it say what you want. Your greedy with your money, you want it all, "ain't givin God one penny, its mine", your just a typical holdeman when it comes to getting the scriptures twisted. It IS bibical to tithe. Who cares about this Levite or that one. It IS bibical to tithe.

Nas:

I do get a smile out of your "bottom Line " statements and philosophy !

Oxy

Bee Kind

Fred, your just like the "ain't no hell" group. You find every possible way to ram,cram twist scripture around so you can make it say what you want. Your greedy with your money, you want it all, "ain't givin God one penny, its mine", your just a typical holdeman when it comes to getting the scriptures twisted. It IS bibical to tithe. Who cares about this Levite or that one. It IS bibical to tithe.

q1. Aw Naz, you are making me have a bad day now! I don't want to be a nohellite, or a typical Holdeman, and especially a scripture twister.. How come someone else can't be that?

Naz you are as hard headed as an old sda! Lets also argue sabbath keeping okay?


If it is biblical to tithe, where should it go? And most of all where does the bible tell us to put it where you think it should go? Show me!

Lets just say I agree with you,
q2. do you tithe on the amount of money you could actually save in a year? or the gross amount? Or the taxable amount? Do you subtract appreciation, depreciation, is the tithe credits for certain behaviors and sacrifices?



Do you tithe on increase of net worth? Such as if your house appreciates 100K do you tithe 10 K to wherever you think it should go? If not why not? What about your accumulated retirement? If you have a retirement worth 500K Do you tithe on that before you get it?

If you net worth shrinks in year (like almost everyone has had happen last year) do you get a rebate on your tithes you paid on appreciation since they have since depreciated or do you carry your loss forward so someone else can accuse you of being stingy?




May God richly Bless your day!

Nas, you remarked to Fred...."your just like the "ain't no hell" group. You find every possible way to ram,cram twist scripture around so you can make it say what you want....."

Speak for yourself. You are doing the very same thing. Your translation of the Bible is what you are wanting it to say. You may laud your translation as the truth for the whole world, but to the whole world looking on, what they are really picking up from you is the truth of the attitude you hold about yourself and life in general.

So, are you from the "we believe in Hell" group? What I find to be interesting about those people who believe in Hell, is that they're quick to put somebody else there, but they'll never put themselves there. And God forbid that anyone else should even remotely suggest the possibility of them going there. What is really amusing, though, is the people whom they are relegating to an eternal damnation are blissfully unaware of their fate. Which then means that Hell exists only in the mind of those who are imagining it.

There's a verse in the Bible that says...."Judge not that ye be not judged." Once again, what you are believing, what you are speaking, especially about someone else, is a window into how you are that you are opening up for everyone to see.

>>What I find to be interesting about those people who believe in Hell, is that they're quick to put somebody else there, but they'll never put themselves there. And God forbid that anyone else should even remotely suggest the possibility of them going there.< <br>

Isn't that the truth!!

>>What is really amusing, though, is the people whom they are relegating to an eternal damnation are blissfully unaware of their fate. Which then means that Hell exists only in the mind of those who are imagining it.< <br>

So, you are saying that Hell exists...

(Just in case anyone's not clear on my stance, I believe that Hell quite possibly exists, but that it's also likely to be quite empty in the end since no one will be forced to stay there unless they really want to - read C.S. Lewis's 'The Great Divorce' or the final book in the Chronicles of Narnia series, 'The Last Battle').

"Speak for yourself"

I was,eng, I don't see anywhere on any of my post that I included you,,, or anyone else for that matter.

" what they are really picking up from you is the truth of the attitude you hold about yourself and life in general."

Yup, that exactly was my intentions. I was giving MY idea of how I see the Bible verses, don't see
anywhere again where I included you in my thoughts,,, so your set free to believe however , whatever,
you want, I really could care less. You're free to post YOUR thoughts too, isn't that great!! ???

"So, are you from the "we believe in Hell" group?"

Yup,, shore am

"What I find to be interesting about those people who believe in Hell, is that they're quick to put somebody else there,"

Oh really? Show me when and where I did that?

" but they'll never put themselves there. And God forbid that anyone else should even remotely suggest the possibility of them going there."

Nope, I'm not, hell is real, and eternal, and since I'm extremely fearful of it, I excepted Jesus Christ
as my personel saviour so I put my faith in Him, to redeem me from it. You can remotely suggest anything you want, just post away!

...."Judge not that ye be not judged."

Amazing, by the time you'd finished your post, you've done the very same thing you accused me of! Sheeze!

Eng,
I frankly could care less if you believe in hell or not, or, whether or not you go there it's entirely up to
you!

"If it is biblical to tithe, where should it go?"


I ask you before Fred. Who pays the pastor? Where does the money come from for the summer electrical load?
The normal building maintenence, with your attidude "it's somebody else's job, not mine"? Believe me, there's plenty of "Fred's" in every church.
Our church is helping start a spanish speaking church in our town, we help with the homless shelter along
with serveral other churches. Shouldn't the mission field workers get some pay? Small as it is. Don't they deserve some type of retirement funds? Who should help the widows who have no children along this Obama
stretch besides welfare?

Naz, the New Testament church does not require tithes. Our pastor gets his salary and never takes an offering or passes a plate. There is a box at the back. They take take the money in, and set the salary and other expenditures according to what comes in.

Why do you have so little faith in people giving what they want to, instead of paying because they have to?

Extortion is no way to build the Kingdom of God, if god is in it, he will pay for it without compromising Godly Principles of honesty.

"Naz, the New Testament church does not require tithes"

Yeah, Fred I'll agree with you on this. I'll eat crow here, I really meant to
go along with Vines post of 2 Corith 9:7. This is how I see giving, sorry ,I was icluding this as "tithe", it is not the same, I follow your reasoning on the OT way. I can't see "forced" giving either, I agree with what you're saying, my mistake on misunderstanding. Sorry.