http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNhPMQnWu4

After listening to this, it seemed appropriate to the Sheep thread.

Words, whether spoken or printed, are very powerful. Stripped down to their essence, words are just noise, squiggles on paper, or objects on a moniter screen. However, the power comes from the imagery created within our minds. Within the mind, the power of the word is limitless.

I find the different reactions to Fred's words on the Sheep thread fascinating. His intention was to prick the conscience and create guilt, thereby inducing change. He chose words he felt would convey his message with maximum impact. However, the perception, or imagery, created by these words in some minds was distasteful. In others, the message was clear. And, in some, they went whistling in one ear and out the other with no obvious effect.

Fred, if I may make a suggestion; taylor your words to your audience. A good speaker , or writer, will gauge his audience and fashion his words accordingly. I think the goal of starting this forum was noble and is a good thing. Are you getting your message across to those you wish to reach? Are harsh, or as somone described them, vulgar words doing the job? Is a different approach needed?

Please don't misunderstand me. Your words do not offend me. I'm just throwing this out as food for thought.

I agree with you on this OS.  I assume that Fred is trying to reach H people with his posts.  H people are very, very, very conscious of the spirit that is manifested in people that desire change.  If their is even a slight whiff of offense, messages will be discarded with the excuse, "I just don't like his spirit " thereby discrediting anything that may have been useful.  I know this full well because I come across too belligerently at times and I can see doors closing and lights extinguished as people start hiding under cover.  I do know that visiting with you personally Fred, there is a lot softer side to you then what is occasionally shown here but I question that many people are aware of that unless they have actually visited with you face to face.  It's kinda like taming a wild animal, talk very gently and hide the stick behind your back.  A new thought, maybe you could get lessons from your Stoppel friends on how they get the confidence of the dogs they train.  LOL

>>Words, whether spoken or printed, are very powerful. Stripped down to their essence, words are just noise, squiggles on paper, or objects on a moniter screen. However, the power comes from the imagery created within our minds. Within the mind, the power of the word is limitless.< <br>


That is well put. Minds produce words to affect action desired by the inner core of a human. When the inner core is motivated by unconditional love, the effect is felt. When the inner core is motivated by selfishness, the effect is felt. The only way to change the effect is to change the motivater.

I have no doubt that Fred is a teddy bear underneath, I have had that impression as well. I am not saying that he shouldn't be speaking his opinion on the matters at hand, after all, isn't that why he created this forum? I am also quite well acquainted with "extremism", some of my own blood relation is quite good at it, I just think it tend to dilute the message. When it involves gross images that aren't even realistic, then the message largely becomes invalidated, except to other extremists that are on the same page regarding a particular matter.


Besides, my original issue was, as my first post on the subject stated,
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I thought of a question I had for you. Since you didn't like "intimidation", "lies", etc. (note: at least they were from your perspective), why do you resort to the same? Haven't you found a better way?

I'm not saying whether that type of thing is right or wrong or contingent, I'm simply wondering why you have become so entrapped in the very thing you have preached so hard against. Are you, perhaps, so passionate about defending the "one true way" (meaning whatever it is you have that at least a few poor souls in the H church don't) that it escapes you?
----------------------------------


That remains my issue. When someone claims that someone else "spreading rumors, lies, intimidated the people" etc. etc. is not right, then I can only assume that anything they say or do won't stand a chance of looking like the same thing. I feel like the original post fits this definition of intimidation quite well:
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Intimidation may be manifested in such manner as emotional manipulation,... making someone feel lower than you, purposeful embarrassment. Behavior may include, but is not limited to, epithets, derogatory comments or slurs and lewd propositions, ... such as derogatory posters or cartoons.
----------------------------------

Once again, I heard quite a bit of that kind of talk on the construction crews I grew up with, and I started down that same road. It is still my tendency at times, but today I have come to believe that type of speech is not honor-worthy. If Fred was Christ and he was calling a Pharisee a hypocrite, I wouldn't have an issue with that, but since Fred is not Christ, and his name-calling is debatable at best, it's simply not in the same bracket.

I'm in agreement that language should speak from what is clear to us and how our heart actually feels. Most of the time that probably is what occurs.

Most folk even without the Love of God in them will hear once the heart is revealed, provided the heart has God's good in it. I find this to be so with customers at times.

If we do not properly get the intent of our heart across to folk our words are likely to be quite ineffective. I am not saying that that is a good thing, but it's simply how it works with folk who are lacking in the love of God.

We ought to freely hear from a complaint of abuse or violation and look into it with the same strength and genuine interest as if it were spoken in mild and soft terms. How is it that we expect someone to speak soft and mild when the abuse and violation has been severe? Or when this same person is making effort to stop further and future abuse and violations from occurring to others?

For example for a parent to disregard what the child is saying because the child cries loudly or shouts from a great hurt, speaks of a parent who knows not the love of God but may religiously drill the child to order.

A complaint of abuse or violation is quite another issue than teaching a greater truth into an error.

Fred has spoken enough times of different violating and hurtful things that by now it should have brought those to him that he's addressed, in order for those to humbly come and inquire by the motivation of the Love of God. Maybe this has occurred, I have not monitored it. I'm saying that the Love of God does [not wait] for someone to speak in soft and mild terms to respond in positive ways to a complaint or to even to a correction.

TR;
Your ideas had good in them but I sensed you were poking Fred right in the eye. I want to know what's wrong here. I Love you and I Love Fred and will come running quickly if by accident I violate either one of you, no matter what language you use to get my attention.

Christianity is a freeing experience. To violate one's freedom of determination is to violate a person. What then soon follows is abuse of this person. This is mild and soft language but it is quite true and it seems to me that all believers should pay attention to the freeing Gospel of Jesus!

You know something Doug? I am going to admit that I have felt violated as well as unjustly judged on this forum.

I, however, expected that when I first posted that I was a member of the Holdeman church.

When all mankind will be judged by what they are rather then by skin color or church affiliation or political party then we will have reached a perfect state!

Until then, let's just carry on!

Fred's perspective is legit and so is TR's. They are not in fellowship on a couple issues and if they can express their feelings honestly, as well as listen to each other, they can both be benefited.

I don't know about all the "honor" and all of the being soft spoken and stuff. If you want me to be a sinner, I am happy to oblige, because I know the Lord I know how to pray and get hold of God, and labels don't mean too much to me.

Now TR, mentioned that an H must be spoken to carefully, or softly or else they simply wont hear the words. And I agree that is conference protocol, because you are simply not suppose to get a rise even if they are raping you as they do in the back room. No wait a minute I'll reword that so you people can hear me. Rape is one word that fits, but I suppose I can paint a picture that takes two pages describing the actual rapes instead of just using the one (and probably only) word that fits.


In the back room, the preachers will offer you a lie that is robed in the truth. Such as when they told the Stoppels that I was taking my jet skis up to the lake and splashing them onto the neighbors while they were fishing. Will reacted to them by stating "that is terrible if they really do that".
Then the preacher whose interest is to get me to not have a jetski, and it doesn't matter to him if he sews discord between me and Will, so he tells me that Will said " it is terrible they are up there at the lake with their jet skis".

Now Will actually did say that, so the preacher is covered and can slime his way out of the accountability of actually lying, but it is not how he said it, neither meant it. He meant it is terrible if I splash the fishermen with my jetskis while at the lake.


I could go on and on as I describe the evil they do. Such as my son "lying on the bed" with the girl he later married okay? He let that go around the congregation with his gossiping tongue, but forgot to include the other kids that were present there and all of them playing a game of monopoly.


To me it is easier to just call their system a whore because whoredom is how they practice discipline. They don't use confrontation and witnesses that will get in trouble for false accusation. Oh no, when they told me that the rumors of my son on the bed with that girl, I wanted to know who the accuser was so I could get him and find out why he would say that and spread it around without mentioning that he was on the bed with them playing a game. But the fact of the matter is that the preachers knew the truth and wanted to bring me under the wheel of their lordship using protocol they accept, manipulation and spiritual adultry.


This is because they don t love the truth that we are free if we don't trespass our brother, Rather they love to manipulate their people into doing things they would never do if left alone it makes their little zion look good to them.


I almost want to apologize for the language I used because of everyone leaning on me . But I am simply not sorry, it is the physical language to describe the spiritual state of the Holdeman conference, and discipline protocol that is accepted and taught as truth.

As far as I can see if they do spiritual adultery, we should call it that.

atrisk;

At ease; we all have felt that way at times when first coming on this forum; honest. That minor stuff can hurt and yet it tends to get the sticks out of the way where we can speak straight forward rather than around the bush. I have been watching you and I've noticed that you speak more straight forward than at first. This forum for most part appreciates honesty.

The real difference is that no one on this forum [to my knowledge] assumes to have authority over you which can create long lasting negative things in your life. You may have been violated to a degree but not abused. Sorry if it was me.

We must keep apples with apples and oranges with oranges. So let's carry on.

>>That minor stuff can hurt and yet it tends to get the sticks out of the way where we can speak straight forward rather than around the bush. I have been watching you and I've noticed that you speak more straight forward than at first. < <br>
You present a case for justifiable "violation" in order to bring about change.

"Hit a man where it hurts and you generally get "straight forward"."

No worries, Doug. I would bet though, that you would have found my original posts as straight forward as the rest if there was no initial predjudice. No fault to anyone there. It is human nature.

Atrisk;

I really think intelligent people know when they are speaking from a wealth of some heritage and when they are speaking from their hearts. Call the thing on the carpet, and intelligent people change the mode of operation.

I know of no one on here that hates a person for being a Holdeman but I know that many feel strongly about someone speaking from a wealth of religious heritage and being high handed from this vantage point.

"I know of no one on here that hates a person for being a Holdeman but I know that many feel strongly about someone speaking from a wealth of religious heritage and being high handed from this vantage point."

Good point!

Oxy

And Doug, if I may belabour this point abit. I am truely curious. Do you feel that I have in any way promoted, defended, or high handedly presented anything on this forum from the vantage point of my church membership?

When I first came on to this forum I too was a little shocked at some of the words Fred used but I soon realized that they aptly conveyed the message he was trying to get across, to paint a more vivid picture of what his heart was trying to express, if you will. He was not brought up with all the complexities of holdi-speak, the loving tones while at the same time infringing on individual freedoms.
When Jesus was here on earth he also used some strong language to get his message across, such as to the Pharisees, you brood of vipers, and in the temple, you den of thieves, etc.
I know what Fred is talking about as I have had similar things happen to me too, especially involving the deacons, and until it happens to you ,you will not see it nor understand it. It can't help but cause some distrust even though you will have forgiven them.

Atrisk;

How's the weather in Miss?

Hey, I have never seen a person who's involved in a strong religious heritage and there are many of these heritages, who do not go about things in a high-handed way until someone calls their hand.

They may not exactly know when they are doing it, but they know what not to do once their hand is called on it. Funny sort of thing.

Atrisk, in my opinion you did not have a severe case of it. It'll come back at whatever level if you don't watch it though. That stuff runs deep.

>>How's the weather in Miss? < <br>
No idea Doug.

>>You may have been violated to a degree but not abused. < <br>
To me, someone is guilty of abuse is when the they know what they are doing and do so deliberately. I think we sometimes violate without real knowledge.

And I don't think anything said on this forum has hurt me. I just was hoping that I could get past all judgement and participate from a personal stand point from time to time. ( I might protest if I think someone is abusing someone else. This thing of raking over a member for some past hurt he doesn't know about or participated in would be an example)

"I know of no one on here that hates a person for being a Holdeman but I know that many feel strongly about someone speaking from a wealth of religious heritage and being high handed from this vantage point."



I see Doug's statment above as being possible for current and former Holdemans. Did I misunderstand the above statment?

Oxy

I have not seen this on you Atrisk.

One aspect of the high-handed thing can be seen in coming from the position that sure, that way of looking at it is expected from those who are beyond the ranks [whatever the issue is]. This is easily picked up and seen as a form of high-handedness. It speaks of the idea that we have it together but how could you possibly have it together? I have witnessed this on this forum.

It's kind of funny when I tell a Holdeman friend; we'll pray for your situation and God bless you real good, and he says, yeah. Or to tell them I love them at times and I hear a, yeah. I get the feeling that we are not supposed to be praying for them and that we are somehow not supposed to love them either. Just maybe I am seeing that wrong?

When you get past talking of the weather or the price of wheat, it gets rather complicated.

>>When you get past talking of the weather or the price of wheat, it gets rather complicated.< <br>

Well, we tried the Miss. weather of which I know nothing, and I'm afraid that I am not current on wheat prices either. And as far as what Holdemans believe, I'm not an expert either. I can and will talk about what I believe though.

If you are interested in stuff like that, we might find some common ground. I don't have a franchise on what is the correct perspective though. I better warn you of that ahead of time.

atrisk;

My personal computer is down with H1N1 or I would suggest emailing. I have an awful time with my wife's laptop.

So what's the price of tea in China?

I met what turned out to be a very good friend on this forum some four years ago. Turns out he was a cousin. Hey, are we not all related in some way? All the inner-marriages, it's a wonder we can think and function at all. Some of you need to marry Baptists for a century or two. Would that work?

Baptists have the same roots as Mennonites don't they?

Yep, they also trace their roots back to the Garden. 

Maybe a lineage that misses the garden altogether and goes back to the apes was what you are looking for? I've read that there are those that claim a lineage like that.

"Baptists have the same roots as Mennonites don't they?"


Well,,, no,, the Mennonites can trace their roots back to Esau.

Atrisk; you're beautiful about the linage thing back to the apes. You do display interesting humor.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this but along with all Mennonites and Amish, the Baptists as well share the Anabaptist heritage.

"I could go on and on as I describe the evil they do. Such as my son "lying on the bed" with the girl he later married okay? He let that go around the congregation with his gossiping tongue, but forgot to include the other kids that were present there and all of them playing a game of monopoly. "


I usually let gossip like that run off like so much water (occasionally I will go speak with the person that has the issue, if the need warrants it). If it becomes a large blown up issue, I simply state my case (i.e. yes, they were both laying on the bed, so were some others, I don't personally feel like it was ideal myself, and I'll be visiting with him about it).

Just so you know, if I found out my son was laying on any bed with a girl he liked (or not), I don't really care if there were other people present or not, there are better and more commendable ways to play Monopoly anyway.


Edit: I might add... I'm no stranger to that type of gossip, I had plenty of it float around about me (not that it was a good thing). Oh yeah, it could be a bit frustrating at times, but I found that if one took the honorable way, and truly had nothing to defend or cover up, that in the end, the gossip didn't matter (to me anyway)

TR, While that type of thing is understandable even though unacceptable, in a community, it is nevertheless protocol in the H and a fruit of the Spirit of holdemanism. If I didn't think they do it on purpose, and with full intention on doing it again, it would simply not be an issue and neither would I have felt the church was a total waste of time to attempt to bring about meaningful change. It is easy to make that type of behavior never happen again with the consent of the people, and that is by setting in accountability. Most problems in nature and business are looked at with the intention of fixing them. But holdemanism is not set up to fix what ails it, because they love the way they do it even if it is an abomination to God and good men.

I spend countless hours looking at engineering problems in these ammonia refrigerators, find out why they fail, and make adjustments in the design to ensure it ceases. Even the H people as individuals look at problems with an eye toward fixing the problems. If the tractor breaks, they want to know why.

But their glorious appellation and charge-less mother will look bad if they admit she has fault, so they kill anyone attempting to change her or expose her treachery, blaming the person exposing the nakedness of the mother with the bad spirit that the mother actually possesses.

If you are planning on disciplining an issue, you must prove there is a problem, somebody must make a charge and then prove the charge. If there is no proof and the charges are baseless, the guy bringing the charges is subject to discipline and dishonor including false witness charges.

The greatness of the American republic is built on the principle of peacefully enjoying the freedom of the land unless charges of felony are brought against the individual.

The law itself states:
Deut 19:15* One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
16* If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17* Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18* And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19* Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

So if there is a false witness he needs to be punished, but since the false witnesses are the preachers, and they refuse to have unbiased witnesses at the trial, it is impossible for the accused to have a fair trial. They rountinely tamper with the witnesses

I prove this by stating that they had meeting about me without me being presence, and the next day the brothers came and told me what they decided and why. Well I heard the reasons for the meetings, and thought that is simply not true, but they never asked me, neither was I allowed defense and the right of cross examination.

In a trial the prosecution must send a copy of all correspondence and discovery to the defense so he can do discovery of his own and make sure everything is honest. BUt the H is dishonest by nature and they want the advantage of a dishonest trial, for it makes the Preachers like God instead of like servants.

This leans the the whole system toward the guy with the advantage and is grossly unfair to those honest souls who are willing to be abused, and the system is away from the guy without the advantage because he is powerless to bring charges of abuse, because their is no witness.

So the skilled manipulator with the advantage may and does abuse his power. And you people kicked me out for simply wanting a witness to prove the filthy spiritual abuse your lying preachers continually worked on me and mine. And since you did it to me, you also did it to many others because If I am worthy to be put in "church work" simply because I put action to my well earned mistrust of the ministries ability to use spiritual abuse, how may others have been subjected to that same abuse?



It is harassment for the "leader" to plow around just to drum up business or harass. To even pretend that a "church" that Christ has anything to do with busybody on purpose is insulting to the honor of of his Dear Name and cause.

A clear set of rules that is evenly and justly enforced and agreed upon in writing, and a fair way of escape if you disagree to submit to them would help. This is why it is a sin to not let a disagreeing person leave without molestation. (expelling them) For there is no way to legislate conscience, you can only sear it if you don't allow freedom to leave unmolested.

I absolutely refuse to "long suffer" their abuse on more time without exposing them from the housetops, and since they refuse to stop it, either they must leave, or I must. The congregation chose me to leave, so why must I also be subjected to have to come back to enjoy the family table?

Because your mother is a b-word, a filthy female adulterous dog, that hates people and honesty, that is why, okay?





But in their lack, and because they love confusion and contention, and "rule", they plant or "cause offense" so that the victim of their plant will become offended. An offended "brother" is easy to see and expose to everyone, thus making him a mark to the congregation or "cursed" as the African witchdoctors do, thus making it an acceptable way to get them into the back room and "deal with" and miraculously cure by getting the victim to submit to other conference rules. And you yourself like this, because you want all the members to keep the external rules, but you are powerless to have that without using spiritual abuse.

Now since I can't use the word that fits like spiritual "rape", I will again have needed to use many words to convey the picture that one word work with if it is acceptable, so my "spirit will be gentle" to the H readers who are disciplined to not say ouch when they are raped by their glorious one true church and the imps running that evil mechanism and instrument of spiritual torture.

It isn't the "bed together" that is the issue. That is a surface tension, that is pointing toward a much deeper rooted problem, for the thing they were doing is spreading it around the congregation that they were in bed together. They were refusing to tell me who the witness was so I could have him brought up on charges of false witness. They were sewing discord because they told me "here is what we are hearing around the congregation". SO I am forced to think the congregation is talking to the preachers instead of me. If I have the problem, tell my fault to me and me alone, if I will hear you you will win me. If you tell others you lose me!

Mistrust is born out of manipulation.


If there was a witness, he should have been made to sign a complaint so that his words were "nailed" and thus the charge could be either proven or disproven. Of course he never brought the charge, what he did is simply state a thing that happened, and the preachers spread it around to build a quorum to abuse their next victim with since they had already run off about 13 families, only I don't do manipulation too cool. I tend to let you hit me with both barrels, and then ask you why you did it.


If there was no cause evil enough to make a charge stick well then obviously the kids reputation should have been left untarnished.

Now you said and here it the essence of my problem:
Edit: I might add... I'm no stranger to that type of gossip, I had plenty of it float around about me (not that it was a good thing). Oh yeah, it could be a bit frustrating at times, but I found that if one took the honorable way, and truly had nothing to defend or cover up, that in the end, the gossip didn't matter (to me anyway)



Gossip is a cool way of saying evil speaking. Evil speaking of this type is a death sin since it sews discord among the brethren, and that is about the only person in the world that God literally hates.
16 These six things doth the LORD hate: 19 and he that soweth discord among brethren.m

How can a man be in eternal life if he speaks evil and sews discord by doing so?

So why not expel them that sew discord instead of those the preachers want to lord over?

Back to the principles involved in the rape though:
They ask themselves "What should we do to stop them?" But the issue was extremely twisted for one of the other boys noticed their budding "love" that later turned to marriage, and it made him Jealous and he wanted to destroy them. The preachers went along with the reputation destruction because they wanted to bring me and my family into church work so they could miraculously "cure us" (not to mention to get us to submit to other conference foolishness) SO they went along and actually spread the rumor on purpose.

When confronted they of course "repented" and said that is not what we meant"

But of course it was what they wanted, they were looking to offend me and my family so they could make us repent over superficial issues that make sense to a conference worshiper, but not to anyone else.

So the times your reputation was evil spoken of in the H it was done so by him who does not have eternal life for eternal life in a man forces him to face the guy he has a problem with and make a face to face accusation, and ask a repentance experience. BUt his love toward God and you will not allow him to speak evil of you to others.

And you people kicked me out for simply wanting a witness to prove the filthy spiritual abuse your lying preachers continually worked on me and mine


Oh, Fred, you sound like spurned lover. When are you going to move on from those people who once stole your heart.

Oh, Fred, you sound like spurned lover. When are you going to move on from those people who once stole your heart.

HA!

Really, Fred, those Holdeman preachers are so absolutely harmless that it almost cracks me up every time I hear you go off on them.

Well Sirus, they may seem harmless to you and me, and I agree it is almost funny if it wasn't so pathetic, but they sure don't seem harmless to the poor souls in there that have sprouted a little manhood and have certain affinity for standing for truth only get knocked back down by their "wonderful leaders". But Sirus, I don't write this stuff for you (not that am against your reading it). The target was for TR, who needs a reminder once in a while on how they do their little back room thing so when he get pulled in again, he can see what is happening.

Sirus, another thing I think you ought to consider? If I use concentrated language, the problem in a nutshell can be spoken in a few paragraphs, but to use the vernacular of holdespeak, and sweet light tones that they will actually "hear" takes hours.

I remember taking one of their deceived ones and actually speak to him in holdespeak for hours on end, and stripped away the veil of the holdegod, until he actually saw the holdegod, and considered the price to walk away from that filthy beast.

Actually it was creepy because I saw that evil best the same time he saw it, but I had already familiarized myself with his unholy presence, actions and "ways" because I considered why all the 13 families actually left and they all pointed to a "spirit" that dwells in the principles of holdemanism and causes people to play musical chairs with their lives by moving to another congregation when the preacher gets too close to the closet sins, conference breeches or simply goes crossways with the preacher and can't make him happy.

But when this brother saw him (the Holdegod), he turned blue, literally! I really thought he was going to feint. And he was frightened. I thought it was sort of funny and sad at the same time, Here is a bunch of people worshiping a scaled reptilian holdegod with cold the breath of legalism, and the anti-life blood flow of the holdevirus (h1n)dwelling within the bosom of that nefarious best, and he had never seen him before!

But I am cursed if I speak short or long, so I guess I ought to just shut up and go to bed!

Have a great evening everyone!

but they sure don't seem harmless to the poor souls in there that have sprouted a little manhood and have certain affinity for standing for truth only get knocked back down by their "wonderful leaders".

True enough, I guess, Fred. Is it kind of like when we go to the zoo to see all the "wild animals?" The "wild animals" in the zoo don't have to fend off any predators and all of their food is supplied without having to compete with others. A lot of these animals were probably raised in captivity and don't know life in the real world. I wonder if, instinctively, they long to be where nature intended, in the wild.

Fred,

You're the one that went looking for a Holdeman kind of church.

You're the one that consented to join it.

I don't know how you can get around the self responsibilities of these facts.

If the church didn't turn out the way you thought or the way they told you, it was still what needed to grow in you and come to experience, that went ahead and got into a land with traps and snares. It was their hunting land. They could do with it what they wanted.

Brent

Good analogy Sirus

Brent, the Holdeman church came to me, but good thoughts there too.

You guys have a nice Saturday.

Fred,

I've been through about every type of meeting with the staff you can come up with, and I must agree with Sirius (just this once ), those type of meetings seem to get under your skin more than they ever did me.

As far as the gossip issue, gossip, whether false or true, is just that, a bunch of hot air coming out somebody's mouth. Pretty harmless, really, unless you can't control your emotions and feelings very well. One thing is sure, I've never even been close to dreaming up all the stuff you have, you sure got some vivid imagination!

Edit: I'm actually suggesting it may be more vivid than what your former congregation was coming up with! Now, is that bad or what?

Same great Saturday to you!

>As far as the gossip issue, gossip, whether false or true, is just that, a bunch of hot air coming out somebody's mouth. Pretty harmless, really, unless you can't control your emotions and feelings very well.< <br>

Well TR, in some cases that may be true but I think you are taking a rather cynical view of something that the Bible speaks of as being very serious. Gossip isn't harmless if it is untrue (lying) and people are believing something about you that may tarnish your reputation and may even have drastic consequences. You will have to ask the families that moved away what they think of gossip, distrust of the staff and the wrong that was committed. They evidently considered it serious enough to leave and not have any part of it. Like I've said earlier, until it happens to you then you won't see the seriousness of it. It's more that just a matter of controlling one's emotions.

>Gossip isn't harmless if it is untrue (lying) and people are believing something about you that may tarnish your reputation and may even have drastic consequences.< <br>
GM,

I am going by the incidents Fred related earlier.

What are the "drastic consequences"? What is a "reputation"?

TR, you wouldn't even believe the things that have happened to us regarding the 'consequences.'

GM, email me, I'm all ears.

Removed post for making a bad judgement call,,,, my, how could I ever do such a thing? I shall
punish myself by giving my woman the pleasure of trick or treating my bod tonight, she will
no doubt choose "treat" ! But , I MUST absorb the punishment due .

"Some holdemans are very cautious, I realize"

Thank you for adding that statement.

My siblings, in the church are very cautious and fair in what they say to others.

Oxy



Bee Kind

Nas,

I don't do gossip, for sure not if I realize it is gossip. Period. It is wrong and sinful for me to engage in such. IF I ever get involved with the transmission of any gossip, you, my church brethren, staff, anyone can and should call me out on it.

I have no problem asking questions of the accused and/or the accuser, and maybe of some of the others involved with the transmission of it (questions like "DIRHTW") if I hear gossip about someone (if applicable), but it DOES NOT travel beyond me or my wife.


What I meant by that statement is that I do NOT give in to my initial emotions if there's gossip about me or my family. I don't even believe there's a serious need to make sure everybody knows the truth about me IN MOST CASES. It's just an inconvenience that is normal to life and interaction with people. If I feel like someone is being hurt by gossip, I tend to try to make peace one way or another between all involved (and know for a fact that taking sides is usually purpose defeating, even if one person is "clearly" wrong.)

Since I have friends and family who are not members of this church, I am well aware that these kinds of things are not limited to Holdeman circles.

Sorry I didn't make that clear. Right or wrong, this is my view of it.


I should add this... I think most of my brethren in my congregation know my views on gossip as well, and they would tell you my opinion of it is pretty low.

I just had another experience with being wronged not long ago. It actually did cost me something, quite a bit, actually, and it didn't involve a church member either.

It can be difficult to refrain from broadcasting the event, and giving all the gory details, and even harder to truly wish the best for the "offending" party.

It is, however, the Lord's way. Complete forgiveness, in every situation, all the time.

"What I meant by that statement is that I do NOT give in to my initial emotions if there's gossip about me or my family"

Ok, TR , I follow your thinking. I read you wrong, totally wrong, I apologize and will remove my post
as it is an unfair accusation.

You guys have a nice Saturday


You have a happy Halloween, too, Fred.

Don't let those scary holdeman preachers frighten you too much.

I've always loved Fred's descriptions of the backroom rape sessions. They are so graphic and so accurate. He never flinches from telling the truth. Yes, it is offensive to the gentle Holdeman demeanor, but the reason I like it when Fred does it is because it is such a stark contrast....their gentle demeanor masks the most vulgar of behaviors, and when he speaks of it forthrightly they cry out in mock horror and cover the tender little holdeiears. encourage him to continue to say it the way it is. Love it Fred.

Honestly, Mutther, if you and Fred were so in love with the Holdemans, why didn't you just stay and do what they wanted?

Holdi-preachers are about the most non frightening beings that I can imagine and the only way they could have had any power over you is if you had allowed them to.

Oh, shut your pie hole

Oh, shut your pie hole

You are a spirited gal, I'll give you that.

"
Yes, it is offensive to the gentle Holdeman demeanor, but the reason I like it when Fred does it is because it is such a stark contrast....their gentle demeanor masks the most vulgar of behaviors,..."


Muttherlode:

You have a perfect right to your opinion...as we all do.


Mine is: I am grateful that not all people who have a gentle demeaner in our society, are Holdemans.

Additionally, I think it is very unfair to categorize Holdemans as a "group" of people who masquerade gentility with vulgar behaviors.

Maybe you did not meant to put your statement in the plural sense, maybe you were in a hurry, or in passionate thought
but that is the way it was written...

Plural could mean two, many, most or all...
Because of my loving, sincere, genuine and caring Holdeman family members...I have to stand up for them.

No, I was never a member, But I too suffered greatly having a Holdeman heritage...and needed to find it in my heart to forgive...for...myself
Please, Please, Let the suffering go...Let the suffering go and find peace....


Wait a few secs...until the singing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-NRriHlLUk





___________________________________________________

In this next song...I am not saying there is no Jesus or Heaven etc...just simply concentrating on the full powerful meaning of ALL the world coming together as one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xB4dbdNSXY

Yes, I am an idealist...
Oxy


PS. I may be responded to with criticism...and that is everone's right to do...too...
And I know I do not need to come on this site if I do not agree with everyone.
However that is my right also...to be here...Not?

Hey, Oxy, you need to be careful. I know how you are about offence to another and I'm warning you that your musical choices might be offending Mutther. See, she lives in the Bible belt and I doubt if they appreciate songs that have to do with no Heaven and no Hell......well..the no Hell thing she might like..but not the no Heaven.



Btw, "Imagine" is one of my all time favorites.

woah oxy not plural? Not all one?

na na na na na na na na nieve


not all in "bed together",

na na na na na na na na nieve


You are a sweetheart, and a very nice lady. But those people are doing what they do to people because they like it.
And they are all doing it (with the exception of a few stuck in there but are on their way out). Because if they don't cooperate in providing fresh kill to the holdegod and her ministerial backroom "deathsquads" , (hey that is what Oboma s doing also, telling us who is worthy to die) they themselves will become the fresh-kill. It is way more palatable to watch your brother get torn to shreds that to watch it happen to yourself. (sarcasm)

See, here's my response to Fred's language,and my own attitude about things. I have been a forum junkie for around 7 years. In that time I have had input from dozens of people, some of whom agreed with me and some who didn't. I remember early on, when I was still trying to think that these were nice people who were just unenlightened about a few things, I said something like, well they are still the nicest people in the world, and Carol Wiebe said to me, no they're not. Look what they do. Nice people don't do that, and that fast my eyes were opened. If you have never been forcibly or unfairly put out of their midst, and been horribly shunned, you might be able to look on them as somewhat benign, but when they have caused great devastation in your personal life, home and marriage, as they have to many people on board here, then they cease to be amusing little clowns. In no way does this indicate a lack of forgiveness, it simply means there is no longer any misunderstanding and one will no longer shield them and their tactics. Fred does a magnificent job of saying it in a way that makes it starkly real. He uses metaphors for the spiritual behavior that are totally relevant to the physical counterpart. This takes some boldness and some daring, as not everyone can appreciate it, but it leaves no doubt as to the truth of what is going on. There is always someone who will be chosen to be unpopular when unmasking something evil. We can talk nicey nice about them from now til the cows come home, and they will continue to abuse undetected. I did my venting and undertook my journey.I don't post much these days because I am seriously engaged in other pursuits.I am getting on with life. At age 54 I enrolled in college and am pursuing a degree. Don't know what I'll do with it when I get it, but its something that was denied me to even consider in my incarnation as a Holdeman woman. It has to do now with freedom and being normal. Its not something everyone has to do, but I found that it worked for me. I have very little animosity for them, except when confronted with evidence of atrocities that are still being carried out. Then I go nuts and want to punch my fist through a wall. I never see them in my daily life, don't live near any relatives, probably don't set foot inside of their churches once a year. Have zero to do with them. But I realized recently that what they did to me and my family is something that will never completely heal. I will live with the pain and the residual effects of it for the rest of my life. That doesn't mean I want them back or that I hate them and haven't forgiven them. It means that they took all that was valuable from me, except my very own personhood, and my integrity. Id one has never been a part of them,or if one left gladly on ones own, then none of this is meaningful.But if they have ravaged your life without your consent, well what is that if not a parallel to rape? It taught me many lessons. It made me much wiser and more insightful than even very very smart people. I see that even highly educated people, to some extent still walk around with a bag over their heads when it comes to understanding hidden spiritual things. And this is where the truth resides. If you don't understand hidden spiritual things, you don't have a clue. God has given this gift to many people, some without the kind of suffering I have gone though, but I doubt that anyone ever gets it for free, without paying some kind of dues. It's a sorrowful gift to have, not something to be gleeful about.

As for Fred's language, let me say this one more time; there is a spiritual parallel for every physical thing, and vice versa, or whatever. Everything that happens physically has a spiritual representation.I learned this as a painter, when I learned to understand hidden metaphors and how to incorporate myself into my work in a subliminal way. It was a shocking revelation when it became entirely clear to me. Here is one thing I was taught...EVERYTHING YOU DO SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT YOU. It was hard for me to see that at first. It could be as simple as the technique or tools you use to execute your art work, it could be the colors that you choose, the composition, the various things that describe your work. Take it a little further. Whether you know it or not, someone who understands metaphor and these things can look at you and read you like a book based on the clothes you choose to wear, the way you wear your hair, and the way you present yourself in your entirety. Attempts to hide something shameful or hidden about yourself will simply result in someone being able to see that you are hiding and from there it won't take much for someone to get a pretty good clue what it is. So imagine that if someone takes you into what Fred calls a back room rapes session, well, he says that because that is what it is. They are taking someone by force, they are abusing them in a way that gives them power and makes a victim of you. There are so many elements to this that if you are involved in it, you will feel and see the perverse sexual overtones like they are screaming out at you. I felt bizarrely violated for years before I understood the entire picture. The happy Holdeman who can go into one of these sessions and come out feeling fine needs to look deeply within him/herself and find out what it is about them that makes this ok with them and perhaps even feel good. Just because it doesn't feel bad or wrong doesn't mean it isn't happening.

As Fred also says very cheerfully, after he has finished venting,

MAY GOD RICHLY BLESS YOUR DAY!!!

Sirius:

Glad you love IMAGINE too.

You are right, I really do not want to offend anyone...and defined that I was NOT denying a

heaven, hell or anything!

But I cannot be a little mouse in the corner and stay quiet when I hear

a statment that appears to put one group of people all in ONE negative category when I know

Holdeman loved ones who are not that way...(Ministers too) who would never take part in...and

would not be even close to taking part...(metaphorically speaking)...in back room Holdeman death

squads!

They would be scandalized by such un-christian tactics.
__________________

Regarding the songs...I think one can take a part of something in many things in life and

concentrate on the positive aspect while ignoring the rest.

IMAGINE is a beautiful melody that to me says...
leaving fear, anger, suffering, religion, politics and all those things that create strife in the
world...lets just "Live and let Live" in harmony with all of our fellow man...

I see "Give Peace a Chance as saying the same thing...just in a different way and melody.

___________________


Fred:

"You are a sweetheart, and a very nice lady"

I thank you for your kind words and I think you are a man with a very good heart, so I seperate

your heart from some of the sarcastic... things you write...!

Just wish you could also let the suffering go too!

I believe that Forgiveness is a powerful word with "never ending positive repercussions".

Okay, Okay, off my soapbox I go...


Oxy




Bee Kind

Great to hear you are in school...
I started back at age 48...

I would not trade my education for anything !

Even if you do not use it...it is something that no one can ever take away from you!

Seems we were writing at the same time...


I do not blindly defend the Mennonites.

I have confronted more than one Mennonite on their actions that did not fit their professed

christianity. I did it in a gentle way but there was no mistaking that my points were right on

target...

And years ago that even involved my dear Holdeman minister dad.

No one on this site knows me but Doug...but I have always been a very strong advocate for
treating people FAIRLY...and will not allow any phony bolengy in my life.


Oxy



Bee Kind

That's all good, and I can see that you have refused to let the years and disappontments make you bitter. We all need to BEE KINDer and kinder.... sometimes different things have hurt us and we have learned different lessons. Always the ones that were just right for us, it seems!

And btw, I wasn't necessarily directing that post at you...just throwing it out there in general!

Mutherload

Congratulations on going back to school.
I well remember my Dad Crying when I dropped out of High School. That was before the seperate school system.
It was likely about 10 years later when he was exed. And I suspect it was to do with his views on Education. We did not communicate that much back then. I would not ever be in amongst the H back then without a few good stiff drinks first. So I am sure my sins were much greater than his.

Yes and all the love from the H to bring me back - To me it was much more like Rape -Yet they seem to think they are following the Scriptures.

My Grandfather used to talk of
the two ways to get action. Use a Whip or Use Honey. I think perhaps they are trying both. but doing a very poor job of the later.

Hi
And thank you for your nice words.

Oxy





Bee Kind

Muttherlode, some good insight there, things to consider..(12:49 post)

Sirius:

Looks like you succeeded with the "death" of this link!


Oxy





Bee Kind

It wasn't really worth a lot, Oxy. It's just that Fred and Mutther are true Holdemans if I ever saw a Holdeman and I know that subconsciously they wish they were members again.

Fred is for sure Holdeman material. I remember a long time ago when he posted a video of him and his family burning a pile of Holdeman books. He said a few words on it and I noticed that he has the same twang in his voice that a Holdeman has. It's kind of a tone that they get after having socialized only with Holdemans for a long period. He belongs with them.

And Mutther? Pahlease. That woman has some serious issues, still. I mean, to say that Holdeman preachers force people into the back room is ludicrous.

You may be absolutely right in your assertions...

I have not been on this site long enough to make a fully logical assessment of both...

I only see that bitterness is a much shown attitude about the church...it makes me kinda sad.

Fred and I emailed and he really is a good guy...Muttherlode in her last response to mine showed wisdom, I thought by using the word CHOOSE or CHOSEN.


Like I wrote...I have not seen that kind of awful behavior described in my family and there are at least 5-6 ministers among them...

Of course in all fairness I must add that Fred and Muttherlode may have been treated badly and unwisely...I was not there.

I only got tickled how you ended this link:)



BEE Kind...

OXY

Bee Kind

Personally, I think that Mutther needs to stop reading all of those self help books and instead, seek the evaluation of a Psychiatrist. Not one of those quacks that pumps her head full of all that Jesus stuff, either. That will only increase her hatred for Holdemans.

Fred is for sure Holdeman material.


Rest assured dear Sirus, I have nothing in me that desires Hodemanism. I seldom if ever walk away from something with cause, and turn back later to embrace it.

As far as an "accent" I think you mistook my mockery of them as a hint that you are now using to show a thing that is simply not there. If you ever head this way, you may want to stop by and sped a few hours with me. I actually do have a "life" that I throughly enjoy.

As far as an "accent" I think you mistook my mockery of them as a hint that you are now using to show a thing that is simply not there.

Is that what you were doing, Fred, mocking them? If that is so, you did a heck of a job. Could you please post that particular video again, here, so that when I get bored I can come and watch it and have a good laugh?
Thanks, Fred.
Plus, I doubt if Oxy has seen it yet.





If you ever head this way, you may want to stop by and sped a few hours with me. I actually do have a "life" that I throughly enjoy.

I don't know, Fred. Do they even allow Obama supporters and gay rights supporters and liberals out that way? I'd probably have to hire a Holdeman escort to guarantee my safe passage.

And what about that Larry Craig? Do you have him straightened out yet? I don't like the idea of people trying to play footsie with me in a public bathroom.

Anyway, thanks for the invitation.

Larry Craig? He is from a town just up the road! How come you don't like playing footsies with him?

Anyway, about that book video, I had it on utube but threw it away a long time ago because it sort of didn't go with the other stuff on my utube account, and I think I lost the hard copy in my last hard drive crash, but if it ever comes to the surface I'll be happy to entertain you.

I would like to hear it also...if you ever find it...I am unclear as to just how Holdeman speak sounds!


Oxy


Bee Kind