Every time a person crosses their natural border {which is everything consisting in their upbringing}, they've trespassed. Every native thing has to graduate, blend and adapt in its new place before it is not a trespass anymore. To trespass and not become what you've trespassed into or have not improved, is the greater error. Your natural way eventually becomes repulsive at the same pace it is understood there if it didn't come into the new place appearing fresh or with some authority that has been hard won. A weak stubborn way that crosses a border is never received and eventually rejected. So we must cross over a border with something to give or with authority under our belt.

A public school is for the rich, the poor, the religious and the atheist children. Everyone is invited and even required to attend and get an education. This is the role of government, and it is good. Everyone has crossed over with their upbringing {in some more apparent than others} to conform to the direction of the state. That it includes almost everyone but the elite {whatever form that elitism takes rather real or not} is why it is lawful. What I mean is religious elitism might adopt to stay out of the public schools system and be allowed too. Still this would only include a few so that the state direction would still stay intact.

I want to use Stan, Scott, myself and the public school system as an example. We all graduated from High school in a public school. Without going into the struggles, embarrassments and defenses of this, due partly to our religious elitism, but being in a place where there was no elitism - let me jump ahead to Prom night where the government run system still sectioned the graduating class according to their upbringing.

When we came to the dinner banquet table, wouldn't you know it, us Holdeman boys were seated with the Holdeman girls in their dresses and black caps, but they didn't dance with us when the Rock and Roll band struck up. I don't remember, but I bet our two Old Mennonite class mates were seated at a table together with a few others discretely chosen. Mind you, this sectioning of the graduation class was still going on in a place where everyone was given a chance to blend, but was still happening, and probably rightfully so because there had been very little blending over the public school years with us or our classmates either one really extending a hand to each other. The bare truth of it, no one knew how to do it.

Anyway my point is, to cross over our natural upbringing, takes a lot of experience, sacrifice, labor and learning. One must come across a new border humble, sincere, honest, and not least, a warrior seeking and holding rights in a place you want and deserve.

Brent

Good thoughts, Brent. I remember every time I crossed one of those barriers the feeling of trespassing. I felt it at the prom in my senior year of High School. But when the lights went low and the rock band struck up the chords to "Color my World" I began to feel just a slight acceptance into that strange colorful world, until I left and found my disappointed father waiting for me while listening to the strains of that evil rock music coming from the gym. That was reality.

When I first attended college I felt the same sense of trespassing. I didn't belong in this world, something whispered in my ear. I was intended for farm work and construction work, and it was arrogant of me to assume I could make a better life for myself. Today I have a Ph.D. and teach at a university. If I had not crossed over what seemed to be those natural barriers, and assumed new perceptions of my identity, where would I be now? I don't know. But something tells me I'm better off.

You are correct that our public school did not encourage any crossing over the barriers. Counselors were supposed to identify students who had potential and encourage them to tear down artificial barriers. Every teacher and counselor I had contact with seemed to believe I was destined for the same life as the culture I was raised in. No point in encouraging overcoming barriers to someone from my background! Would just be wasted time! Spend your efforts on the children of the city fathers.

Brent and Stan:

I read both of your posts with great interest, marveling at the differences in our educational
experiences, and additionally how it affects one's assimilation and transition into the "Real
World"!
There used to be such a contrast in the Holdeman Church's allowance/intrepretation of a teenager
getting an education beyond the 8th grade!

I was not allowed to pick up my 8th grade diploma (take part in worldy celebrations) my diploma
had to be mailed to me. I wanted a HS education so bad I begged my parents to allow me to take a
HS correspondence course-no luck there.
I loved learning except for the fact that being harshly picked on by more liberal sects of
fellow Mennonite students was a given by the the MB's and GC. There were no private H schools
then.
This emotional stress resulted im me being paralyzed from the waist down
for a week one time.(a test for polio or other problems came up negative).

Many years later I realized that these experiences carried over into my unconsciously equating
book learning with extreme stress. However.....
I had always longed for an education so began my educational dream 18 years ago while continuing
to work.
I started with my GED, Associates, Bachelors of SW, Masters of SW and finished my Masters in
Gerontology this last May 2009. Proud, you bet!

Now days, with people living longer, I am looking forward to being in a counseling profession,
even if it is from a wheel chair (provided my mind still works) years hence, out of my own home!
I will never totally retire.

FREEDOM!
However, does one ever feel they truly fit into the real world having a Holdeman background?

Maybe with Stan and Brent going to high school, the assimilation transition was easier?
I had always felt as though I did not "truly" fit into either world, rather as though I was
sitting on a wall between the two. My daughter said once that I had lived three lifetimes!

I have finally learned through the years to create my own place
in this world where I feel very comfortable and at peace with my chosen existence.





oxy


Bee Kind

Interesting thoughts so far. Stan, your comment: "I remember every time I crossed one of those barriers the feeling of trespassing," struck a chord. I've felt the same thing at various times as well, my first high school and university classes and subsequent graduation from both. Presently I am waiting for the results of my final examination for my Chartered Accountant designation (four more weeks and counting).

Some time ago someone told me about 'imposter syndrome', which also resonated with me. Essentially the concept is that you feel as though you are an imposter - you've fluked your way through to your present position - and that at any moment you will be exposed as such. It's quite common among professionals and in speaking with some of my colleagues about it, find that they have the same sort of feelings.

A friend of mine also told me about the 'fear of success' scenario. It's essentially the inverse of failure. You are so afraid of succeeding that you tend to (usually unconsciously) self-sabotage in order to avoid succeeding.

The effect of growing up in a separatist environment is an exacerbation of these sorts of conditions, in my opinion. Coincidentally, I am presently reading Randall Balmer's book "Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory" about the evangelical sub-culture in the U.S (and I suppose it applies to Canada to some extent as well). He describes the cultural isolation that is part of this sub-culture (or perhaps is the cause of this sub-culture). The details are different, but the basic message is the same as most of us were raised with: Larger society is 'worldly', and 'true' Christians don't belong there. Consequently, those from such societies who do try to take their place in the big, bad world, frequently have to overcome these feelings of trespassing and not belonging...

Hi Stan,now that I know you are a Professor,at a University,I Admire you that you can come down to the common man and exchange ideas with them.The Professor's that I have met in my life were mostly very arrogant, and could not relate to the common man.
I spent my elementary education on the skating rink's, so really missed the spelling that would have helped me now. The problem that I have, I depend on the spell check, and it does not always spell the words what I wanted , and fail to check , and does look rather embarrassing some times.Most of the time I am too much in a hurry.
I know you are well educated, in the theory of Darwin's"Evolution".I believed in the Evolution theory for some time. The theory on the prehistoric fossils as evidence seemed like it made a lot sense.But have changed my mind. I now believe in the" 6 day creation" . Why , because there is now evidents that the Scientist can prove that the species do not change to another species, but adapted in there own species. It takes 50,000 changes to make a change .The Darwin Theory only will show as much as maybe two, so it is now proven that Darwin's theory of prehistoric finding are false.This comes from the modern day Scientist.This is not news because they do not want to admit that there is a Creator. That at the beginning there was a creator who made it happen.If you want more information I can send a video.This video is part of the Truth Project series.I will get you the name of the Professor and where he is now teaching, if you want more information.

at t

Hi Stan,now that I know you are a Professor,at a University,I Admire you that you can come down to the common man and exchange ideas with them.The Professor's that I have met in my life were mostly very arrogant, and could not relate to the common man.
I spent my elementary education on the skating rink's, so really missed the spelling that would have helped me now. The problem that I have, I depend on the spell check, and it does not always spell the words what I wanted , and fail to check , and does look rather embarrassing some times.Most of the time I am too much in a hurry.
I know you are well educated, in the theory of Darwin's"Evolution".I believed in the Evolution theory for some time. The theory on the prehistoric fossils as evidence seemed like it made a lot sense.But have changed my mind. I now believe in the" 6 day creation" . Why , because there is now evidents that the Scientist can prove that the species do not change to another species, but adapted in there own species. It takes 50,000 changes to make a change .The Darwin Theory only will show as much as maybe two, so it is now proven that Darwin's theory of prehistoric finding are false.This comes from the modern day Scientist.This is not news because they do not want to admit that there is a Creator. That at the beginning there was a creator who made it happen.If you want more information I can send a video.This video is part of the Truth Project series.I will get you the name of the Professor and where he is now teaching, if you want more information.

Don, you make me chuckle. Please spend as much time learning about evolution from it's proponents as you have its detractors. Then we can have a debate.

Brent:  That was a very insightful post you wrote!  Thinking more about your post, I find that I feel more intimidation and putting in place directed toward me on this forum than almost any other venue that I have been involved with including public school, professional schooling and singing in various venues to name a few. I normally feel very much at home in almost any situation, but this site is different.  That is not a problem with me because I am here by choice.  When it becomes a problem is when I, or we, are forced into a role that we are uncomfortable playing and others take it out on us for that role, somewhat like you felt at the prom night.  You know Brent, I'm having the hardest time trying to figure out if you are borderline genius or just a little crazy are partly both with your insights!!  This would normally call for a good natured slap on the back, but I can hardly do it online.  Still desiring to meet you someday, someplace, your time, my coffee!   And yes to answer the unspoken question, I AM half crazy a good share of the time! Other times I am quite insane and love every minute of it!

"One must come across a new border humble, sincere, honest, and not least, a warrior seeking and holding rights in a place you want and deserve."

Brent

I have to agree with Mr. Ripley.  "I'm having the hardest time trying to figure out if you are borderline genius or just a little crazy are partly both with your insights!!" There are many times your thoughts are far above what I am able to comprehend, but this topic definitely resonates with my experiences in life.

I made the difficult decision to cross that border. One night I deliberately placed myself into God's hands and said to Him, " I don't know who I am or where I am meant to be, but I am breaking free of this prison known as the Holdeman Mennonites and I am going to go out in search of myself."  I have never looked back. And yes, I like what I found. I belong where I am.

BTW, Mr. Ripley, I think you fit in here just fine.

"Brent: That was a very insightful post you wrote! Thinking more about your post, I find that I feel more intimidation and putting in place directed toward me on this forum than almost any other venue that I have been involved with including public school, professional schooling and singing in various venues to name a few. I normally feel very much at home in almost any situation, but this site is different. That is not a problem with me because I am here by choice".

Forreal, I found your statment above...startling in its clarity of expressing my own feelings too...posting on this site!

Thank You!



Oxy



Bee Kind

Thanks all you guys for your commendation.

Chalk it up to experience and observation of that in an attempt to undo damage and find my place in this world.

Forreal, I'm somewhere between Haviland and Dodge City everyday.

Brent

Brent, an interesting perspective once again. I've been thinking that everyone feels like they don't quite fit in. It doesn't matter who they are, or what their backgrounds are. I instruct at a collage and find it surprising how many students struggle with feeling like they don't belong in the classes. Brilliant people, professionals, young and old all have the insecurities that make them feel displaced when they are looking to stretch, or learn something new.
One of the greatest things a person can do is make someone else feel like they belong, it is a basic need. I have been blessed with wonderful people in my life who have gone out of their way to make me feel validated and will treasure them forever.
I find I relate to the people who say they don't feel like they belong when they are on this forum. I find this largely a negative place, it is one where the majority of people who post have serious self esteem issues about their past and if we are gonna be honest the majority of us are dealing with feelings of guilt. (not necessarily valid guilt) I find I have not met the expectations passed on to me since childhood, and I don't belong in the "I'm so proud of you" section of the family tree. While in this frame of mind I and find it hard to accept others thoughts and feelings without judgment. So even though our common link to this forum is the feeling we don't belong, we try to make it an elite pity party one where only people who don't fit, like we don't fit are acceptable, and we become the very thing we hate.
The reason I keep coming here is I find the honesty intriguing and see things in my own and others posts that have me thinking and evaluating where I am at in my own journey.
If I am dealing with major issues or walking in self doubt I steer clear of the CGCM bookmark! I often feel like the forum is a room in my house that I have to buck up before I walk into. I have to have the strength to face any kind of mess that might be waiting for me...when I don't have the amition to deal with the turning on the light and facing the cobwebs I just keep the door closed!
I quite adore the people here...and have made some wonderful friends and learned so much about myself by being part of this forum. While it is mostly negative in nature, there have been some very positive things come out of this for me...and ironically I feel at home here now.

Forreal, most of the hostility on this site(there is a bunch),. comes at you holdemans, because we
simply STILL have the whinny cry baby, ex's on here that are angry at you holdemans, because they could
not get away with the cake and eat it too.Most on here just plain deserved to get the butt kickin
they got.
What amazes most most is,,,, the ex's on here were, at one point in time,were involved in kicking somebody
else out, giving their approval with flying colors to kick another out, just like the apostle Paul,
and THEN, they get booted, now they don't like it!

Brent, the holdeman gals in Monte had nothing to do with us holdeman boys,,, they all went for the "worldy"
guys! We holdeman boys got stuck with what ever was left over, which was generally the Roseann Barr
look-a-likes.
And Brent when Forreal takes you for coffee, make him furnish the Viceroys too. Can't have coffee without
a tasty cigarette! UUMMM good !

"We holdeman boys got stuck with what ever was left over, which was generally the Roseann Barr
look-a-likes".

Oh my, did they talk like her too?

Oxy

Bee Kind

And Brent when Forreal takes you for coffee, make him furnish the Viceroys too. Can't have coffee without
a tasty cigarette! UUMMM good !

That's a good one Nas! Big grins.

Brent

"Oh my, did they talk like her too"?

Well no Oxy,,,, guess not, But,,, it might be where Roseann learned to sing the National Anthem!!!
Roseann is one actress(if you could even call her that) I absolutly despise.

You made some very insightful observations on many people feeling as though they do not fit it, wherever they are and the reasons for it, valid or not.

However, I do believe we may need agree to disagree on your following statment:

"So even though our common link to this forum is the feeling we don't belong, we try to make it an elite pity party one where only people who don't fit, like we don't fit are acceptable, and we become the very thing we hate".

This may apply to some forum members,
but I have found some very positive people who are not on this forum to be part of a "pity party" but rather to simply share an uncommon background
that has nothing to do with elitism.

I see some of us as coming on this forum to learn about other's experiences and how we came/learned to cope with living in a world much different than our own heritage, which could be described as a culture of separatism from all others.

I also see the same thing you mentioned about making some good friends on this site, because I believe there are people here I could become good friends with too, like you...especially you with your candid and heartfelt honesty!

Oxy

Bee Kind

Your post gave me another laugh!

I do not care for her either. I NEVER even watched one whole show of hers'.
One time simply out of curiosity for about 3 minutes I watched to see why she was so

popular...then...I changed channels.


Oxy



Bee Kind

Miss Gracie:  I really liked your post and the honesty it portrayed.  It hit a nerve ending deep in my heart!  I rather adore you anyway, maybe that is why I liked it?  LOL

Thanks Brent;

To freely find our way beyond the village can be hard to do and especially so if we are retain our mental and emotional health.

I am reminded of great contributions in my experiences. The one was Dr. Buelher the dean of the bible college where my own degree came from. This Mennonite man [not Holdeman] had acquired four doctorates from one in education to one in Bible and the other two in yet other fields.

To this day we are fast friends as he approaches 90. There are people sent us to make the transition from the village to the larger world of reality when we get serious about it and this was one of them for me. There were distinctly two other men as well that I shall never forget and never stop thanking God for them!

I was loved out of my dilemma and my life is much richer for this. In the end God himself authors our lives if we allow Him to.

I'm now up against yet another thing of crossing; I am seriously considering a run for the county mayor here next year for reasons that I see need of change; you can imagine this hurdle.

Let's pray for one another.

Interesting post, Brent. I have always assumed those who post here have mostly "crossed over" but just come back here to kind of reminisce . What is the saying??; "if you do not know where you came from you do not know where you are going, or don't know where you are" ... or something like that.

However further, I believe there is healing in sharing hurts, and I really believe that the H church has benefited from this exchange here. Without doubt, the MOT has started greater use of the name "Jesus Christ" in their writings since it was pointed out here that it oft times hardly appeared in print. Also, this site is monitored by some progressive ministers who have interest in being totally scriptural in their approach to "church". I do not believe the H church is "crossing over"... but time does change people, and where people are honest in their approach to God, His Spirit will move. There is no doubt in my mind that in the mid 1970's, (that is really the last where I saw the inside working of the H church) the Spirit of God was ignored by the "elite leadership" at H, which in time actually spawned communication such as this.

Grace mentioned "fitting in"... I confess that I do not not feel I fit in with H people. I always want to draw back, rather not attend functions we are invited to, or personal visits. I try to put on a front, but if I am really honest with myself, the rejection from them remains in my system. My B-I-L once asked me what it would take for me to get over this. I responded by saying if your wrist watch was stolen and the person came to say he was sorry, but did not return your watch, it would ring shallow. Plenty of persons (including ministers) have said what transpired in the mid 70's was not right... but corporately no steps are taken to return what was taken. And so I am content to realize that I too fail, do not measure up, need Christ as much as the H folks, and to find and enjoy a different cultural home.

We "crossed over" long ago and have been blessed.

Doug, all the best to you are you prepare for your run at "mayor".

Hank:

I respect that your writing is usually based on interpretation of research to which you have obviously dedicated more time to than I would care to. However, you have repeatedly stated that you desire some sort of corporate apology from the CGCM. In my experience, apologies usually benefit the aggressor more than the victim. Are your motives for the improvement of the CGCM, or do you seek closure from what happened back then? Assuming that I am correct in believing that apologies help the aggressor to come to peace with themselves, or perhaps God, how exactly would an such an apology change the core fundamentals of the CGCM? Do you believe that it would impress those who were wrongfully treated? Do you think that if the CGCM were to issue a corporate apology for the panels of the 1970s that excommunications would be annulled? Would those who have built lives outside the CGCM return so willingly? Personally, I highly doubt it.

Allow me to expound on your wristwatch example. Lets say that the thief returned your wristwatch after many years. No doubt you would already have a new and perhaps a better wristwatch. Returning the watch would give you some closure over wondering exactly who it was that took it, but it would not replace all the days when you did not have a watch. However, the thief could accept your forgiveness and for once sleep with a clear conscience.

I suppose that it would benefit the CGCM to look closely at its past, and at the very least, publicly acknowledge its faults of the past. Perhaps this would inspire the future generations to avoid such travesties. The CGCM is here to stay, and its course will not be determined from outside sources, such as the forum. This is mostly a good thing. For such an institution to began to adhere to outside sources, such as those they have expelled, would be dangerous, and a bad business deal at best.

I did not write this to grind salt into any wound that you may have, Hank. I enjoy your scholarly approach to examining CGCM doctrine. What inspired me to write today was the topic of forgiveness.

>>I try to put on a front, but if I am really honest with myself, the rejection from them remains in my system.< <br>



Hank,

What if one of them wanted to be friends with you, and maintained an honest effort to remain open to a bridge to cross your differences. Would something from the 70's that they knew nothing about prevent you from developing a new friend?

This is my frustration with this forum. I confess that I am on guard when I post here as I expect to be catagorized because of my opening post stating which denomination I am a member of. Hence my login "at risk". And it is with reserve that I write here because of that "fear" of catagorization. But why do I preserve myself?

"What if one of them wanted to be friends with you, and maintained an honest effort to remain open to a bridge to cross your differences?"

My experience has been that those open to bridges have or at least think they have the upper hand. That bridge they envision turns out to be a one-way flow coming towards them. I love to read and learn from this site. But it takes time... Sort of starts out "one for me, one for you" then continues, "two for me, one for you... three for me, one for you... four for me, one for you..." Such is mennonite. Not many find use for lessons learned elsewhere, especially MB or WOL or Vineyard. And who cares? That's OK.

Re: "I try to put on a front, but if I am really honest with myself, the rejection from them remains in my system"


I admire your candor; and I also understand how you feel. The two little words "I am sorry" are powerfully healing words, when said from the heart.

I have never been able to understand why these words are so had for so many people to express, especially professing christians.

It would be wonderful if the mistakes made by any religious leaders could be personally and publicly expressed.


A good example is the one Pope Paul II made in 2001 while in Greece.

Quote: A historic apology to the Orthodox world for sins "of action and omission" over the centuries by Catholics was made here on Friday by Pope John Paul II...may the Lord grant us the forgiveness we beg of him,"


Oxy

Bee Kind

>>My experience has been that those open to bridges have or at least think they have the upper hand. That bridge they envision turns out to be a one-way flow coming towards them. I love to read and learn from this site. But it takes time... Sort of starts out "one for me, one for you" then continues, "two for me, one for you... three for me, one for you... four for me, one for you..." Such is mennonite. Not many find use for lessons learned elsewhere, especially MB or WOL or Vineyard. And who cares? That's OK. < <br>

Vine,

True. A post that fits the thread.


A funeral setting I observed.

The family had members on both sides of the membership issue. The barrier was distinctive on both sides, and both sides maintained it.

If the ex side saw the lack of humanity, they could have been the ones to build the bridge.

If the H side saw the lack of humanity, the responsibility was theirs.


A nasty mess that prevented the love of one human to another.

I've contemplated that scene different times and can only conclude that if the "front" had been removed for the majority of that family, there would have been an outpouring of love. The components were there.

The reaching clash in this setting would have been the "I'm better then you" on both sides. Those reaching out would probably have been criticized by both sides. By one side for not avoiding, and by the other side for not avoiding as well.


If you really want to know how I felt about this setting, read it again as if written by an ex.


I have come to a conclusion for my own life. To really be free, I have to get willing to go beyond barriers when I see them.

The problem I face is it hurts when I am rebuffed. If anyone knows the answer for that, let me know.

"I have come to a conclusion for my own life. To really be free, I have to get willing to go beyond barriers when I see them. The problem I face is it hurts when I am rebuffed. If anyone knows the answer for that, let me know."

atrisk,

When we're rebuffed, it's usually because we've crossed a barrier with our weakness or our own things. There are already things across every barrier with their own established way. They don't want our dependency to weaken them, nor do they want us exhibiting our own things.

Brent

>>it's usually because we've crossed a barrier with our weakness or our own things.< <br>

The barriers I am talking about are the preservation ones I have in myself. You know, the kind that stop you from helping the stranded motorist, or other humane gestures, as in reaching out to the person sitting on the outskirts of the social gathering.

I think that your post still applies though. If there were no personal baggage in my way- there really would be no barrier from my side, and there often is. Hence the hurt.

And further more, it's taken every year I've lived to get me to where I'm at.

Joe....... when I commented about my visit with my BIL and the "wrist watch" analogy, I realized it could come across as you read it. But, I do not think that I have repeatedly suggested I need an apology. I have written about what I think H needs to corporately do in order to biblically function as a NT church, which certainly includes correcting past wrongs and correcting their theology (especially since they insist that they walk in the same succession as Menno Simons). If you note, I did say that I realized that I too fail, do not measure up etc., and need the continuous covering of Christ as much as they do. And I have argued for their right to exist as a social/cultural group, determining who can be one of them and who cannot.

I do however, struggle with the point you make. I do not always know my inner self motives, whether they are self serving or from a real desire to help my H brethren. But, I cannot let my own "insecurity" ?? in this respect stop me from speaking up what I see as miss-representation of truths (whether biblical or historical interpretation of others views, in this case of the early Dutch Anabaptists). I also accept that I will be miss-understood... but that too is not an excuse for one to be quiet. If I am wrong, then I too want to be corrected. And how can I be corrected if I do not put my views out there for others to see.

I believe that CGCM had an acceptable "confession of faith" 50 + years ago (with its own peculiarities; one being JH's outrageous boast of what was revealed to him), but their theology placed all of God's people in an "invisible or catholic" family. I also believe, that as a consequence of JH errors, the "purge" of the mid 1970s resulted which brought CGCM practice to an extreme. Then, the next thing that happened they changed the way they wanted H membership to view others of faith outside of their baptism (BD&P). They separated salvation from the church (Matt. 16) and they put a strengthened spin on the OTVC (even though they dislike the term). They now see the church of Jesus Christ as NOT those who testify with Peter "Thou art the Christ"; but as only those who receive their baptismal water. This contrary to the teachings of those who they say they follow, including the "33 Articles of Faith" which I grew up with.

I am 68 years young, been out of H since 1976, have a good social and church life, and have been blessed with a wonderful family. I said on another post; I have crossed over. I am on the outside of H. But perchance some H may get to see the issues... and motivate others from within to re-think their theology. I say that one place to start is where there is clear evidence that they have changed. This evidence is right in the open, written for all to see. I understand that biblical truths do NOT change... applications in society may change, but not principle teachings.

>And further more, it's taken every year I've lived to get me to where I'm at. < <br>

Ditto on that, atrisk...speaking for myself. I appreciate your posts.




Hank, I value your views and understanding on things holdeman, and anabaptist. I think you are doing a good work.

*

ATRisk asked:

"What if one of them wanted to be friends with you, and maintained an honest effort to remain open to a bridge to cross your differences. Would something from the 70's that they knew nothing about prevent you from developing a new friend?"

Good question for me to consider. We all need to look deeply within ourselves to see where we ourselves are the problem in promoting relationships. SInce you posted I've been thinking and trying to check myself .

Again, I will try to be honest, including exposing fears and experience. H life has a strange hold on people. For by far the most H members, it is too comfortable a place to "rock the boat" and risk being cut off... even if inconsistencies are seen in their practice and belief. And so, even when relating to my H friends, I really do not know when I could be cut off. So yes, I believe I am at fault in allowing this fear to hold me back from fully trusting my H brethren.

But on the other hand we should ask; what is our natural mechanism to handle disappointment and breach of trust that we experience ? Maybe this is not right answer, but back to the "wrist watch" analogy... how can one really fully trust another till something taken away is restored ?

Nas;

Not much fame in being a mayor of a small county. If I wanted fame I would do something different than this run off. Coming from outside this county I see things that are needed at grass-roots level that the locals seem to miss or do not care about.

Hank;

I agree with you, trust must be built. So long as we desire to trust I think we are headed forward. The smallest thing can change at the top in exclusive religious groups and the loyalty toward a friendship with one outside the group is forfeited. Loyalty is a huge thing in relationships. It is complicated to have a strong friendship with someone from within the village.

I do believe you are about as ornery as they come!

They being your fellow man!

I believe you may be even more direct than I am, at least on a consistant basis!

This is NOT a critisizm, simply an observation!




oxy

Bee Kind

"This is NOT a critisizm, simply an observation! "


So was mine!

Now Foxy, I think you're just be protective of baby brudder, right?

Since I don't want you mad at me darlin, I'll remove my observation, fair enough?




Bee Mean

One thing about being Holdiman, ex-Holdeman, or just reared as a Holdeman, there is an inherent specialty acquired.

Some call it reading between the lines, others call it observations, and still others call it discernment. I have observed that the specialty of Holdemanism is suspicion. Do I suspect this? Well possibly, I certainly have observed this in myself and in others from the Holdeman extract.

A thing can be said quite accurately with pure motive and this specialty will suspect something dark. There is nothing Godly about us in this. It is not of Love! Love tends to believe all things.

The suspicion that oh boy you better be careful what you believe, I think is formed in both fear and in ignorance.

In the confines of this specialty, deception for most part is in the eye of the beholder. A thing is heard or a thing is seen, and rather automatically the thought is that if I had done that or if I had said that, I know that it would have come from a dark motive. The blue van syndrome is bad about this type of suspicion.

Exclusive religion and ignorance does this to us. My experience is this; I do not think that people across the board have this nearly as severely as do those of the Holdeman extract. I really think it has to do with righteous standards and exclusivity.

On the [back side] of this specialty something else happens; the blue van syndrome may hear an accurate depiction of something and if it does not come with a near perfect attitude it is rejected no matter how true. Suspicion! Suspicion is a dark complected gifting.

There is a Holdeman specialty. It's quite dark and it with-holds men and women from the reception of a whole lot of good.

This could help us. Most of us are of this extract.

There is nooooooooooooooooo reason to remove your post... is not that what this forum is for...to

express our individual...

different intrepretions of things?

Oxy

Bee Kind