church of God forum

Through the bible with Pastor Paul

  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Forum  

Sex abuse in Livingston

November 13 2009 at 2:40 PM
MarilynCarpenter  (Login MarilynCarpenter)

Has anyone heard any rumblings of a recent exposure of sex abuse in Livingston? At least one of the victims have recently come forward and told the story of being raped by a teenage boy in Livingston years ago.
The rapist now lives in Othello Washington as a member of the Church of God in Christ Mennonite.
The ministers have been somewhat involved but I have yet to hear of the rapist even being expelled for his acts.
Has anyone heard anything of this yet?

 Respond to this message   
(Login ksmech)

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 15 2009, 11:17 PM 

Well, Marilyn, you really give us the willys with this post. I've been watching for some response to this because we have a daughter that was teaching at Othello, WA. This has her mother and I wondering WTF...
If there is anything to it, we would like to know so we can caution our daughter.

(Login MarilynCarpenter)

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 16 2009, 9:17 AM 

I am very close to the story- although not the victim. Abuse is like a rock being thrown into a pond. The worst of the impact is right where the rock hits, but there are also ripples from that rock that disturb the water. Although not the victim of the rape, I am a ripple.
I found out the enormity of the rape just recently as my marriage began to crumble from an unseen force. I had wondered for some time what was causing the destruction of my marriage.Through therapy the horrific story of the rape of an 8 year old boy came out.
This was not merely childhood experimentation, but a teenage boy taking an 8 year old boy out to a hidden place and raping him. The victim remembers every detail as if this happened yesterday.
I decided to find this person who had created so many ripples in my life. Lo and behold, I found him in Othello, Washington still as a member of the Church of God in Christ Mennonite. My entire life has been torn to pieces and yet his life continues on.


(Login myfathersson)

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 16 2009, 10:22 AM 


What happened, as you describe it, should have clear statutory penalties. I will be praying for you guys, just get good advice both from people who can help the two of you heal and from those who can advise you legally. You can email us if you choose.

This message has been edited by myfathersson on Nov 16, 2009 10:28 AM


(Login doug-64)


November 16 2009, 10:26 AM 


What an imperfect and unfair world we live in. It's good you're talking, it's good for you that you're talking.

How's the eight year old boy? Likely he's still about eight. Emotional development usually stops at whatever the age something traumatic like that happens.

I had my own different type of thing happen at seven and I was 56 when the thing was dislodged [worked out of me] and I could finally become more than a seven year old emotionally, on certain levels.

What's important it seems to me is that people sincerely love and stick together through the thick and the thin, but that doesn't always happen. When this doesn't happen we ought not place blame when relationships fail.

Where do we go from here? How are you doing Marilyn?

Has the Washington man been arrested? There's no statute of limitations on something like that to my knowledge. For something as hurtful as that he ought to freely turn himself in and just maybe plead for the mercy of the courts. I am sure it's been revealed for a reason. My my!

This message has been edited by doug-64 on Nov 16, 2009 11:41 AM


(Login oxymoronish)

Dear Marilyn

November 16 2009, 11:25 AM 

Mere words are inadequate to express my feelings,

so I will simply say my heart goes out to you and I will call a minister

cousin of mine in CA to ensure that he gets this information,if he already has not.



Bee Kind


(Login twinspapa)
Registered Users

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 16 2009, 11:26 AM 

When will this all end? The percentages of abuse per populace in this group seems to be very high. Perhaps if the leadership would stand up for what is right instead of trying to "deal with the sin" there would be some real progress. By progress, I mean getting help to both victim and perpetrator.

It seems that the more opression there is (regarding sexuality and related education/understanding) the more depravity has room to grow.

Ms Carpenter, if you have enough facts to go to the authorities (legal not church) I would encourage you to go. These victims need our support in any way we can.

(Login MarilynCarpenter)

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 16 2009, 2:16 PM 

Thank you for all your kind words and encouragement.
I am unsure of the statute of limitations and the victim is not in any position to pursue this at this time.
The rapist was in his very early teens at the time and from hearing the level of planning and thought that went into this, it seems highly unlikely that the rape I am speaking of was his first. He even planned ahead to bring something to clean up the blood.
The saddest of all was that the victim did not even know the words to begin to tell his parents what was happening. Only knew that he was not allowed to talk about anything of a sexual nature and so kept it hidden for 22 years.
When he finally told his parents (very recently) his dad cried and said he had "no idea things like this even happened in "The Church"". His dad had already been contacted by the ministers in Othello. However, that is the extent of what I heard. I have no idea if this rapist was expelled, told to turn himself in, etc. It seems once again the Church of God in Christ Mennonite has circled their wagons.


(Login doug-64)


November 16 2009, 2:40 PM 


I am sure that you're aware of the revelations in the Roman C. domain and how it was hidden at different times. Many other places in christendom the perverse has been occurring as well. Hiding does not stop the revelations. Judgment begins at the house of God, it says. Everywhere in all things, things are coming to the surface.

Nothing will be hidden that has been hidden in these the last days of this age, the Word says. I think that is a word of Jesus!

I know that you are not asking for advise but I feel to say this, rest in Christ and take good care of your family. We will pray, we already are moved with compassion!

I sense that it is already too much out in the open to shut it down. Let justice prevail and as a teen, and even a late teen I am not even sure what that is. I feel for his wife and family if he is married.

This message has been edited by doug-64 on Nov 16, 2009 3:00 PM

(Login ksmech)

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 16 2009, 2:44 PM 


Pray tell that this is some 40 or 50 year old man by now. Hopefully it isn't the 28 year old Othello youth boy that is getting married this weekend,

(Login MarilynCarpenter)

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 16 2009, 3:29 PM 

No, this man is now 35 I believe. He has a wife and children. I do know the ministers in Othello are aware of it, but know nothing more.


(Login Locklady)

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 16 2009, 4:33 PM 

Several things need to be addressed in this situation.
1. Such things do not have the statute of limitations that they used to, due to the nature of the crime committed and also due to the type of dealing that has been done in various church groups across the nation.
2. The perpetrator needs to be made fully accountable for his actions and also the staff in Othello need to recognise that this man's own children are at risk in his presence and remove his family from his care and make sure that he is never alone with any child. EVER AGAIN
3. they are also required by law to report it, if they know about it and are at risk of being jailed for failure to report depending on the state laws there.
His wife can also have the children removed from her care by the state if she does not comply with the recommendations given and can also recieve a jail term if it is found out that she knew children were in danger and did not protect them.
4. they need to find out if there are more victims of him in the area that he came from and also where he lives now.
5. He needs to be made responsible to pay for the help that his victims need to recover from the crime he has committed against them.
6. The H staff needs to recognise that this man needs help that they are not capable or trained to give him and either go and get some training so they can help him and his family deal with this or send him where he can be helped.
7. I would also advise a session where they deal with the demons that obviously possess him. Unfortunately that will most likely never happen as most of them have no idea of how to do that nor really believe that people are possessed like that, and need help from other people. the general course of action they have is to tell them they have a problem and cast them out to deal with it themselves. The worst part is that they cast the victims out first and reject the very people that need them the most, that could be helped first and foremost. and cater to the guy that does the damage and thereby damage even more people and cause more hurts to go on unhealed.

I think they need to warn all children in any cong where he is, that he is a danger to them and that they need to be on guard and stay away from him.

some may think I am rather hard hearted and out of line here, but having dealt with abusers for nearly 40 yrs now. I know this much. They have a mindset that justifies their actions to themselves, blames their victims for being tempting even when the victim did nothing at all to be guilty of and they also, even if if they recognise their actions as wrong, seem to find a way to justify it to themselves and think that if they can just explain it to you 20 yrs later, that they had a justifyable reason, then you would just understand. They are also of the mindset that every one else would do the same thing if given the same chances or circumstances.

I do know of 2 that seem to have had a true change of ways. One is paying his dues in a jail cell, the other nearly paid with his life.

I would also have to wonder, if this guy started doing this in his younger teen years, what was his trigger point and Who was his own personal abuser?


(Login bawar)

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 17 2009, 5:49 AM 

Who was his own personal abuser?

The holdeman system is an extremely, and maybe the most extreme "legal" system in the "Christian" claiming body of "believers".

Legalism is in and of itself a spiritual deviancy that is akin to a sexual deviancy.

God intended one man to marry one woman, and remain so and to procreate life, living in peace, harmony and love, and to love and protect the children, or fruit of that marriage.

In the spiritual realms, God never intended men to call another man our father, except of course our father.

Mt 23:9* And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Of course the Holdie preachers don't want to be called "father" but they do want the privileges associated with that authority, and so in effect do expect the authority that comes from that natural position.

So the true protector of the family, the "real father" is put into the position of giving up his own head to the headship of the beast of the conference, the preachers in there. Because he has in times past been spiritually abused by them in his youth, which is protocol, and since he didn't like how it "felt" he doesn't look for or protect his young from abuse. It's exposure is too uncomfortable and will cause a "probing" by the ministry.

So the sexual abuse grows in there since there is spiritual sin.

Not that most men aren't at least a little "perverted" at least in the quiet place of their chambers of imagery, but holdemanism perverts natural affection, and screws with the natural mechanism that God gave a man to protect his own offspring changing it into a fear of the preacher that exposes itself in a refusal to judge the obvious until the preacher says it is okay.

This message has been edited by bawar on Jun 24, 2012 8:38 AM


(Login doug-64)


November 17 2009, 8:19 AM 


That was a very insightful post.

You said in effect; spiritual sin sets the stage [i.e. is seed for] sexual perversions. That was insightful and very accurate. You're seeing the extreme problem with a christian body or person mixing the Spirit of grace with legalism. God hates this mixture. This is sin, this is perverse, this misses the mark, and it affects men and women at deep internal levels. Many times this manifests sexually, either hidden or openly. There are other perversions than sexual ones and these as well may manifest. Doctrine itself can easily get perverted and men will take to themselves extra-biblical doctrines which become very central and exclusive to them. This is a perverse thing. Let's remember; perverse things will always hurt and destroy.

Legalism mixed with the Spirit of grace is self-abuse at deep levels of the mind and heart. No person is meant to mix a binding precept with the Spirit of grace and freedom! In so doing we actually create leanings within us toward perverseness. We can artificially and easily open up the energies of perversion within our being. It is like saying that there was no unbelief or doubt until there first came belief and this is true. Once the well is primed that we can be accepted of God by our good behavior there must then come an internal purging.

The New Covenant believer may easily plant legal seeds! Then we fight the crop these seeds produce. To make an ordinance that a certain thing is prideful for example, creates an actual leaning toward pride where there was no pride in those things initially. We violate and abuse ourselves and then wonder about our perversions and our struggles against them?

Fred, this is why we must [purge out the old leaven] in all of us and you're aware of this. The old covenant scriptures do [not] urge us to do this. This is uniquely New Covenant truth speaking of old covenant energies and a false approach to God's acceptance and approval. Romans chapter one is another clear example of this.

Above and beyond the mix and [perversion] of law injected into one's premise of Grace, the letter or law causes repression and then out pops something in excess. God does not repress us, He restores us! There is no repression in Christ, not by Christ! His goodness and righteousness is spontaneous in that it is birthed or implanted in the believer! The New Covenant believer is a new creation!

If the whole lump is leavened there are alas no effective and acceptable checks and balances; therefore the process of purging out the old leaven cannot occur. The perfect example of this is how in 70 A.D. the society of the scribes and pharisees came to judgment, for Christ had come!

This message has been edited by doug-64 on Nov 17, 2009 4:03 PM

(Login MarilynCarpenter)

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 17 2009, 2:29 PM 

It seems that the more I tell this story, the more people are coming out the woodwork telling me the story of their abuse during childhood, both in and out of the Holdeman church. Although abuse seems to be equal across the board, the shame and supression of abuse in the Holdeman church is what sickens me. These children are thought to be safe in the warm arms of the Church when the danger is inside, not outside.
It brings to mind the book Princess, Life Behind the Veil in Saudi Arabia by Jean Sasson (it's been years,don't quote me on name or author) where the women are forced to cover their entire bodies from head to toe in thick black clothing. Some are allowed a small slit to see out, others are forced to squint through the fabric. In this book the sexual perversion runs deep. It tells stories of men catching a glimpse of a forbidden ankle and being overwhelmed by lust. In this society what is normal (a woman's face, feet, ankles, etc) has been turned into the taboo so when men see normalcy they react in uncontrollable lust.
Is this something that is motivating the sexual abuse in the Holdeman church? Has the legalism bred sexual perversion?
I am not so stupid as to think that the rapist of my husband just came up with that idea on his own. I am sure his demons and his abuse are horrific as well. What is scary to me is that he continued that abuse with such thought, planning and violence. I shudder in fear for the young boys in Othello. I have cried myself to sleep thinking of the life his own children have.
My God have Mercy on his soul, because at this point, I cannot.


Steven Thiessen
(Login StevenThiessen)
Registered Users

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 17 2009, 3:04 PM 

There've been many good comments made on this thread and I don't have much to add apart from agreeing that legalism, repression and ignorance are likely all factors to some extent in most cases.

Like you said, Marilyn, the perp, at age 13, is unlikely to have come up with the idea himself, but he is likely a victim as well. (Not that I am trying to excuse him for what he did). What would be interesting to know is how far back this goes. As the Bible says, the sins of the fathers are visited upon their children for generations. What I mean is that the cycle has not been broken in many cases, but rather swept under the rug. I think this is at play in the Holdeman culture as a result of the various factors already discussed previously on this thread.

This is not to say that the Holdemans are unique in this - they are like most legalistic, closed communities.

On a related note, I am aware of a recent case of abuse in a Holdeman congregation and from my well-placed sources, it sounds to me like the clergy there has taken the appropriate steps and the victim and the victim's parents have been given appropriate support and encouraged to seek professional help, unlike has been the case many times in the past. I'm not convinced that this one incident represents a wholesale change on the part of the church, but I remain (very, very) cautiously optimistic.


(Login Locklady)

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 17 2009, 3:09 PM 

Marilyn, if you would be so kind as to email me, I will send you information on places where you can get help and a list of excellent books that will help you address and both of you to heal. Healing is a process, and for many of us, it is not an immediate solution but a healing of the pain. It is the same as physical damage, there are scars that remain, those are part of who we are thru what we have endured. But they can, do and will heal, just like our physical bodies do. but it also leaves scars and handicaps sometimes just like physical illness, damage and surgery do.
we do have a God that is greater than those that commit evils against us and the Satan that perpetuates those evils. I had a conversation just last nite with an H friend that said to me," Some people live such sheltered,idylic, ignorant lives that they simply do not understand nor can relate to the kind of life you have survived both physically , emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. Not many surive those kind of things and still come in smiling."
I can tell you of a certainty that it is not me that has allowed me to survive what I have, but a God that is greater than anything I can imagine that has given me an endurance beyond what some endure. but I have not endured what many others have. But God has given me a heart that reaches out to others pain. Without having endured< I would be a real inconsiderate jerk and probably still am a lot. But I keep working on it. Yet not me working but Christ, Alone I am probably at least taken as a condecending idiot. <br>

(Login erv123)

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 17 2009, 4:52 PM 

Encouraging post Steve, at least one preacher saw what needed to be done for the victum. -- (Not that I am trying to excuse him for what he did). What would be interesting to know is how far back this goes. As the Bible says, the sins of the fathers are visited upon their children for generations. What I mean is that the cycle has not been broken in many cases, but rather swept under the rug. -- Now I'm wondering how you think the cycle could be broken? Seems like counseling for the rapist doesn't work. calledoutPTL

(Login GMman1)

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 17 2009, 5:52 PM 

>Is this something that is motivating the sexual abuse in the Holdeman church? Has the legalism bred sexual perversion? < <br>

Marilyn, being holdeman most of my life, I have seen a definite trend where the children raised by strict, legalistic parents have the most trouble in all things sexual. Once they get to the age where can break free from the repression and control, they pull out all the stops in their quest to learn and experience everything that was denied them. Many of them leave the church. This especially true where the parents come from an Amish/Old Order background.

This message has been edited by GMman1 on Nov 17, 2009 5:55 PM


(Login Locklady)

Re: Sex abuse in Livingston

November 17 2009, 6:29 PM 

Seems like counseling for the rapist doesn't work. calledoutPTL

It does and can if the person really understands the enormity of what they have done and the damage that it has done to their victims. If they do not get that thru their heads it will never change. It is no different from any other sin in that respect. Murderers keep on murdering, angry men keep on hitting people and fighting, molestors keep on molesting, liers keep lying, sinners keep sinning. there is only one remedy for any of it and that is the blood of our Lord and Saviour and his forgiveness of our sins.

We both grew up in angry abusive homes and we both on our own decided and made ourselves a commitment that our home would not contain those elements. We are both human and we have failed in many things but we did our best to not have that kind of home and God answered our prayers. One day our sons in frustration at things they did not understand and our situation with the H church, decided to take out their frustration on each other in a very small house with company in it. 2 more than 6 footers in a room that was only 8x10 in a major fight was not a pretty sight. The very next day, I found the mennonite phsycologist that was quoted on that video someone posted last yr about abuse among the amish. and the next day we were on our way there and I told my sons," This is where the buck stops. We grew up with this kind of anger in our homes and we have made a decision that it does not follow us and our children and we are making sure that you do not carry it on in your life from here because of your frustration in our circumstances."
It is a 60 mile trip for me one way. I managed to get my boys there just a couple of times,because of their age over 18,they refused to go more than a couple times. but it made an immediate improvement in our home, because they knew that I meant business. But I continued to go myself, for myself. It has been one of the best things I have ever done for me, but it has also helped our whole family to recognise that I was not telling the children there is something wrong with you and you are causing a problem, but I was saying, we together have a problem and I am going to deal with my part in it.
One of those boys moved out 2 days before he turned 18 because he was still so angry about us being exed and what he thought we owed him, A beautiful house, give him a car, don't make him pay money home or work around the house........... he now lives in another state and is required to live in with another family by the H. he is doing better. this past summer he was home for a day and my brother took him for a walk and they discussed the situation and his anger. My brother told him that he needed to recognise that his behavior needed some rather extreme changes and that he needed to recognise that one of the reasons that his father did not do some of the things he thought he should was because if his father had acted in the manner he was acting, that his grandfather would have nearly killed him in his anger. He said " you need to recognise that your dad walks away so he does not respond to you like his father would have."
We can change the history in our families by the Grace of God. And we can stop the cycle of abuse by stopping just one abuser at a time, and helping his victims deal with their past one abuse at a time.

Love and prayers, Locklady

< Previous Page 1 2 3 Next >
  Respond to this message   
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Forum  
Find more forums on Network54Create your own forum at Network54
 Copyright © 1999-2018 Network54. All rights reserved.   Terms of Use   Privacy Statement  
Caution: This forum may contain statements and comments that are offensive. If you are easily offended, please exit this forum now. By using this forum you agree to be accountable and liable for your post's. All postings are the responsibility of the posting participant. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the management.

If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner
Click here to see Fair use notice
web analytics
What the CGCM believes, (Stoppels site)