There are 12 in a dozen.

There are 12 inches in a foot.

There are 12 ounces in a troy pound.

There are 12 months in a year.

There are twenty-four hours in a day in all, with twelve hours for a half a day.

There are 12 constellations in the signs of the zodiac.

In the US, there are 12 jurors appointed to sit on a jury.

In the book of Genesis, there were 12 sons of Jacob.

Those 12 sons formed the 12 tribes of Israel.

In Revelation, the kingdom of God has 12 gates guarded by 12 angels.

In the Revelation: there are twelve gates of the celestial City (Rv 21,12).

Twelve gates of the celestial City with twelve kinds of precious stones.

The celestial City has twelve foundations.

Jesus was 12 years old when he visits the temple.
And the list goes on...

Twelve is the number of what is completed, which forms a whole, a perfect and harmonious unit. In the ancient civilizations, like Oriental and Judaic, it corresponds to the plenitude, the completion and the integral parts of a thing.

Jesus chose 12 Apostles to teach them and gave them the commission to go and preach the gospel to all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So, if twelve is the number of completion, a whole and perfect unit, where does that leave Paul?

So, if twelve is the number of completion, a whole and perfect unit, where does that leave Paul?

GM, was he the first heretic?


Also I thought the number 7 was associated with something being finished or completed.

http://www.biblewheel.com/topics/seven_meaning.asp


The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psalm 12:6

From the Seven Days of Genesis to the Seven Seals of Revelation, Scripture is saturated with the Number Seven. Essentially all Biblical scholars, regardless of their stance regarding the meaning of numbers in Scripture, have recognized its special symbolic significance. Simply stated, it is impossible to miss. God laid the foundation of its meaning when He introduced this number in the context of His finished Work of Creation (Gen 2:2f):

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God introduced the Number Seven as a symbol of the completion of His initial creative act. But the work that He ended on the Seventh Day in the First Book was really just the beginning of the Biblical revelation of all history that He consummated in the Last Book. And it is here that we see the Divine consistency of the Number Seven as a Biblical symbol; God used it with exactly the same meaning when He revealed the end of time, described as the completion of the "mystery of God," in Revelation 10:5ff:

And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The word translated as finished is the Greek teléo, which generally means to bring to a close, to complete, to end, to fulfill. This word appears again in Revelation 15:1 which explicitly states the reason for seven angels with seven plagues:

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; because in them is filled up (teléo) the wrath of God.

This verse displays a double emphasis on temporal consummation; the word translated as last is eschatos, whence eschatology, the study of the end times. God reiterated its connection with the Number Seven a third time in Revelation 16:17:

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

This is characteristic of the Bible; most symbols are clearly defined in the text and used quite consistently from Genesis to Revelation. The Number Seven, the numerical symbol of Fullness, Completion, and Perfection, is a prime example of this consistency, as illustrated by this entry from the Tyndale Bible Dictionary (emphasis added):

In Scripture, seven symbolizes completeness or perfection. On the seventh day God rested from his labors and creation is finished (Gn 2:2). Pharaoh in his dream saw seven cattle coming from the Nile (41:2). Samsons sacred Nazirite locks were braided in seven plaits (Jgs 16:13). Seven devils left Mary of Magdala, signifying the totality of her previous possession by Satan (Lk 8:2); "seven other devils" will enter the purified but vacant life of a person (Mt 12:45). However, on the positive side, there were the seven spirits of God (Rv 3:1). In the seventh year the Hebrew slave was to be freed (Ex 21:2), having completed his time of captivity and service. Every seventh year was a sabbatical year (Lv 25:4). Seven times seven reiterates the sense of completeness. In the Year of Jubilee (at the completion of 7 x 7 years = the 50th year), all land is freed and returns to the original owners (Lv 25:10). Pentecost, the Feast of Weeks, is seven times seven days after Passover. "Seventy," which is literally "sevens" in Hebrew, strengthens the concept of perfection. There are 70 elders (Ex 24:1) in Israel. Israel was exiled to Babylon for 70 years (Jer 25:12) to complete its punishment. "Seventy times seven" (Mt 18:22) reiterates this still further. The Lord was not giving Peter a mathematical number of times that he should forgive another person, but rather was insisting on limitless forgiveness for a brothers sin.

With this understanding, we can now see the Number Seven as a fourth independent symbol declaring of the completion and perfection of the whole Bible displayed in the sevenfold symmetry of the Canon Wheel. After clearly defining the meaning of the Number Seven throughout the text of Scripture, God then plainly applied it to the design of its large-scale structure. Thus we see that God took four independent yet harmonious symbols and forged them in the furnace of His Infinite Wisdom into a single multifaceted compound symbol declaring with one voice the Divine Perfection of His Holy Word! This is the overwhelming wonder of it all; the symbols God embedded in the design of His Word continue to build one upon the other, endlessly and effortlessly amplifying their mutually coherent implications. Each independent thread in this Divine Tapestry strengthens every other thread until they unite to form an absolutely unbreakable cord.

This complex simplicity and unity in diversity is the hallmark of Divine Wisdom. The Bible Wheel the Seal of Gods Word is an exceedingly dense compound of four heterogeneous elements that burns like the nuclear furnace of the sun. And just as the four symbols are mutually integrated, so also each symbol carries multiple symbolic overtones within itself. We saw this with the Alpha Omega which bears the ideas of the beginning and end, eternity, everything created, the Word of God, and God Himself. The Number Seven carries a corresponding depth of composite meaning within itself, as we shall presently see.

A Compound Symbol of Completion and Sanctification
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed [sanctified] it.

Exodus 20:8ff

When God introduced the Number Seven as a symbol of the completion of His Work of Creation, He also associated it with sanctification (holiness), declaring that He "blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it." Thus God laid the foundation for its application throughout the rest of Scripture. It is a double symbol signifying both completion and sanctification. These ideas natural cohere because sanctification denotes the setting apart or separating of a person or thing as wholly devoted or completely given over to God, as when He separated the Levitical Priests saying "they are wholly given unto me" (Num 8:16), or again when Paul prayed that "the very God of peace sanctify you wholly" (1 Thes 5:23). This is the essence of the Fourth Commandment which mandates the complete cessation of all mundane work and the complete devotion to the things of God. The Christian fulfills this through faith in the finished work of Christ, our eternal Sabbath (Hebrews 4:10).

The Fourth Commandment permanently embedded the threefold association of completion, sanctification, and the Number Seven into the fundamental rhythm the very heartbeat of Jewish life. Just as God ceased His Work on the Seventh Day, so the Jews rest from their work on the Seventh Day and sanctify it unto God. This set the basis of God's sacred pattern of time that completely dominates the Old Testament calendar. It is the origin of the seven-day week now common to the entire world. Obviously, it is very important to God that we recognize and understand the meaning of this number. He used it reiteratively on multiple scales (days, months, years) throughout His ceremonial laws and in His design of the Jewish religious calendar. The Lord ordained seven days for the sanctification of the altar (Exo 29:37), seven days for the sanctification of the Priests (Lev 8:33), and a series of weeks for the cleansing of leprosy (13:1). Likewise, the sanctifying blood of the sacrifice was sprinkled seven times (8:11, 14:7), and following the pattern of the weekly Sabbath on a higher scale, He ordained every seventh year as a sabbatical year when the land was to lay fallow (25:2).


The Seven Feasts of the Lord exemplify Gods reiterative application of this number in the structure of His ceremonial circle of time. It begins with the Feast of Passover on the fourteenth day (2 x 7) of the first month followed immediately by seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The Feast of Pentecost then comes fifty days (7 x 7 + 1) after the first sabbath following Passover, a pattern God repeated on a higher scale with the Year of Jubilee set for every fifty years (7 x 7 + 1). The whole cycle of Seven Feasts culminates with three connected "holy convocations" of the seventh month, beginning with the Feast of Trumpets followed by the great Day of Atonement which God integrated with the Year of Jubilee and the numerical pattern of "seven times seven" (Lev 25:8f):

And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years. Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the Day of Atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land. And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

God designed the Seven Feasts to accomplish a variety of purposes. They exemplify the symbolic meaning of the Number Seven and indelibly imprint it on the mind of all who read the Bible. They also reveal a prophetic calendar that now stands as an eternal memorial of the great Work of Christ. Three of the primary events of the New Testament the death of Christ on Passover (1 Cor 5:7), His resurrection on Firstfruits (1 Cor 15:20), and sealing of the newborn Church by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost were anticipated by them (Bible Wheel book, pg 83

Paris,
My wife and I found the "biblewheel" website around march of this year and absolutely love it. There is a lot of good stuff to mine on that site.

Mark I've only looked at that site a couple of times but it does look interesting. The first time I saw it was about 3 or 4 months ago.

I don't like the idea of "mining" for information. I rather like to connect the dots.

Here is a question I would like to have some dialogue on, but first let me set up the question. After the Damascus road experience, and his subsequent conversion. one would think that in due time Paul would have made a diligent effort to see Jesus, to sit down and have a cup of coffee(ha)with him and would be loaded with questions in which he wanted to find answers.
Paul was born 2 years after Jesus so they both were living at the same time but there is no mention of Paul ever making any effort to see Jesus. Why not?

Was Paul's Damascus experience after the crucifixion of Christ? Is it true that the Damascus thing happened 3 months after the stoning of Stephen?

Isn't seven the number of divine completion on earth? Twelve is the divine completion in the spiritual realm? calledoutPTL

GM,

I don't know why you're questioning Paul. He at least lived what he believed and preached. That alone gave him authority. The authority of your religion couldn't command three chickens!

Brent

Calledout, I checked on the symbolism of the numbers and it's all over the place. It almost comes down to what a person wants to believe.

The authority of your religion..



Brent, I don't claim to have any religious authority, neither would I want any. Besides, what does authority have to do with religion anyway, other than control. I don't want either.

GM,

Authority in the sense it's real and has experience behind it. Why do you religious people always interpret everything negatively. You act like authority is a sin and can't treat people right. Anything that has skill, experience, understanding, has authority. Is all skill, experience, understanding, meant to oppress?

Brent

I don't like the idea of "mining" for information. I rather like to connect the dots.

Most things of value come from "mining". It takes more effort, time and resources but it always pays bigger dividends.

It's ok if you don't enjoy "mining" and others do. Connecting dots is also fulfilling if that is what you enjoy doing.

Learning to celebrate our differences is what makes the world go around.

GM,


Paul's conversion was after Christ ascended, after the Holy Spirit was poured out as at Penticost, after the Christian Church started, after the time when the Apostles choose out deacons as in Acts 6 and after Philip baptized the eunuch as in Acts 8. Yet Paul should have had much opportunity to see Jesus before his conversion, although he did not believe in Him at that time. Is there any record that Paul seen Jesus before his conversion and while Jesus walked about on the earth?


If Jesus was around after Paul's conversion I believe Paul would have tried to see Him.

There is a pattern in the OT that transferes over to the NT. For that reason, numbers are important. But my guess is that very few people really understand what it all means. I know I don't. One thing I do know that when a pattern is figured out, you can make something. (It makes sense.) calledoutPTL

The Bible does not say that Paul never met Jesus.

Oh Paul met him alright,,,,, on the road to Damascus. It was quite the introduction too.

I have done an in-depth study of Paul and among the Bible scholars there is unanimous agreement that Paul never met Jesus, in the flesh.

I have done an in-depth study of Paul and among the Bible scholars there is unanimous agreement that Paul never met Jesus, in the flesh.

GM, where is your proof? what did the scholars have to say and what made it unanimous?

Why did Paul say that Jesus appeared to him along with James and all of the apostles after His resurrection?

1 Corinthians 15

The Resurrection of Christ

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Nas,

Yeah, I think Paul had a wonderful and beautiful encounter. Also when Paul encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus then that could prove Jesus' Omnipresence. Therefore indicating that Jesus had that attribute of deity. Which most people would then understand that Jesus was God incarnate.

>>Why did Paul say that Jesus appeared to him along with James and all of the apostles after His resurrection?


This didn't all happen at the same time, but separately. There is no indication at all that Jesus appeared to Paul in person like He did to the rest of them. The only time Jesus appeared to Paul in any fashion was on the Damascus road, and He appeared to Paul as a bright light and a voice.



While we are on the subject of his Damascus road experience, the following is a quote,(not mine)




The story of Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus is recorded three times in the book of Acts. The first is documented in the narrative by the author, Luke.

And as he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And the Lord said, "I am Yahshua, whom you are persecuting, It is hard for you to kick against the goads." So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" And the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." Acts 9:3-19

The second account is Paul's personal account of his experience as given before the angry Jews in Jerusalem.

"Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' So I answered, 'Who are You, Lord?' And he said to me, 'I am Yahshua of Nazareth, Whom you are persecuting.' ...So I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.' Acts 22:6-15

There is no significant problem or conflict in these two accounts. Even with the slight variations, the main points remain basically the same. The fact is, they are consistent and corroborate each other.

The third record of Paul's conversion experience is given by Paul in his own defense before King Agrippa. Here is how the story goes now.

"While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' So I said, 'Who are You , Lord?' And he said, 'I am Yahshua, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes and to turn them from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision..." Acts 26:12-19

Now wait just a minute Paul! According to what you and Luke have previously testified, when you asked Yahshua what you were to do, he told you to do absolutely nothing other than to go to Damascus, and there you would be told "all things" you were to do! Now you want us to believe Yahshua told you all of this on the spot?

This is not just a simple case of information having been left out of the first two accounts. If in fact Yahshua had actually come out and said anything like, "Here is the reason why I have appeared to you...", what Yahshua said immediately following this would naturally be the focal point and highlight of every recollection of the encounter! But nothing of the sort can be found in the first two accounts. On the contrary, what Paul said he was told to do in the first two accounts proves that what he said in the third account was a fabricated lie. Was he told all things he was to do by Yahshua himself on the road, or did Yahshua tell him to go to Damascus where he would be told all things he was to do?

It should be apparent that Paul wanted to paint a picture for King Agrippa that he believed was his unavoidable destiny, so he embellished the account of his vision with a lie. The part of his story in bold print above is a total fabrication... sounding far more like something Paul would say than something Yahshua would say. The main purpose for Yahshua confronting Paul is obvious and found in his first words: "Why are you persecuting me?" Yahshua's purpose was to stop the persecution! The fact that Paul didn't reject Yahshua but submitted to him with the words, "What would you have me do?" is a secondary outgrowth from the event. Had Paul stubbornly tried to continue on his way to Damascus to arrest the Messianic believers, it would have been the end of him on the spot. The scene is very reminiscent of Balaam being stopped by the Angel of the Lord because he intended to curse Israel. The parallels between Paul and Balaam are striking. They both started out as enemies of God on their way to curse God's people when they were stopped by a blinding vision on the way. They both repented, converted and served God for a short while, then turned on Him and His people again. If it can happen to Balaam, why not Paul? For more details on this incredible parallel, read 'Jesus Words Only' by Douglas DelTondo.

From Paul's fabricated story, it is evident that he designed it to impress upon King Agrippa the picture that it was Yahshua's plan that he be delivered from the Gentiles by him. But Yahshua never said those words, and as proof that it was one big fat lie, Paul never was delivered from the Gentiles.

A little later in the story, Festus and Agrippa mock Paul (Acts 26:24,28) and come to the conclusion that Paul was little more than a harmless crackpot. This is when Paul opts for making an appeal to Caesar for justice in the matter. Christianity has generally thought of Paul's appeal to Caesar as a brilliant tactical maneuver. But something King Agrippa said to Festus seems to go unnoticed.

"This man might have been set free if he had not appealed to Caesar." Acts 26:32

Nice wall of text GM. I might not have time to read and digest all of your evidence against what the Bible says about Paul.

Why are you so hell bent against Paul? Do you think that Paul was a liar or at least that he led people to believe something that wasn't true?

Do you think we should take out all of the things that Paul said in the Bible?... because he had a lot to say... and if we can't trust him then please GM let us know now. That darn Bible is full of BS...right GM?

I don't mean anything negative against GM (I actually think he has some very good ideas and thoughts), but it would really be helpful to keep the all-important principle of CONTEXT in mind. The above quotes come from a web site of some guy that sounds and talks an awful lot like Derowr. His (the author if the web site) approach is to debunk everything that has been learned and accepted by biblical scholars for hundreds of years.

Here's the direct link to the web site where this argument against Paul's validity was published:
http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/index.htm#Outline Mark

Now, if a person's objective is to shoot holes in the truth and accuracy of scripture, then there's plenty of information out there to accomplish that goal. The other alternative is to accept the Bible in simplicity at face value. Maybe GM is just yanking our chain here, I'm not sure.

Yes, I too like to consider context. I was going to go into that a little with GM but he seems to need baby steps.

I don't mean to be harsh with him or derogatory but the Bible is a package deal. You buy it all or you buy nothing.

It reminds me of a story my last pastor told during a sermon. He said that one time he was in a foreign land and he was with his host family and they were going out to eat. The place that they were going to eat was very special to the host and he wanted to show it to him. Turns out that the cook for this eating establishment would come out and talk to the people, if they were special enough. She would introduce herself and make some small talk and ask what they liked to eat... then she would simply excuse herself and go to the kitchen. What he said during his sermon is that, that is how the Bible is and he equated it to that meal he said "needless to say whatever she cooked he was going to eat it and he was going to eat it all" no matter if he liked it or not. That is how I look at the Bible. I don't go about trying to disprove it. I have spent a lifetime practically asking God to prove what it says to be true. It and God have never disappointed me.