We extend to you a cordial "WELCOME ABOARD !" Come on in, make yourself at home, we are a friendly group of enthusiasts, and we also appreciate the classic Chris Craft Roamer, Corsair, and Lancer boats too , as they are all on the same family tree and share much in common !
OK the block is back along with all the parts for reassembly. Here are some photos of what I came home with tonight from Sandusky.
I will break this up to make it easier on the dial up folks.
Block fresh from machining
Long view of block
Looking down the mains
When Mark changed from his APYC web site all the links to photos were lost, but your intrepid forum host archived the photos because the thread was so good, and now we have been able to recover some or all of them due to reading the code on the old photo links and comparing them to codes in the archived files........whew!
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 2, 2013 3:56 PM
Ok no more pictures just some facts for you guys. My machine shop work was done at Griffs Engine and Machine Co in Sandusky Ohio. Gary Griff is awesome in my book I received 3 seperate papers with my engine when I picked it up detailing exactly what was done to the block. I will try to scan them in to the computer so you all can see but here is a quick breakdown
1 machine and recondition block, crank and rods for 350 Crusader engine.
Labor to clean, machine and recondition short block components 950.00
for a grand total of 1340.84
I don't think it was a bad price and I think anyone would agree with me when they see the breakdown of what their idea of machine and recondition a short block is. I will get it scanned.
Ok now you want me to remember what algebra or geometry which one was that to figure out the displacement of a cylinder. Hmmm let me see bore x stroke x pie x number of cylinders is that right? Ok Ok it is actually stroke x pi x radius squared. Ok here we go stock dimensions
Bore 4.0 stroke 3.48 for this lesson pi = 3.14 so Bore is 4.0 so radius is 2.0 square = 4.0
3.48 x 3.14 = 10.9272 x 4 = 43.7088 x 8 = 349.6704 or 350 CI
Ok now the bore is 4.030 so the radius is 2.015 x 2.015 = 4.060225 here we go
3.48 x 3.14 = 10.9272 x 4.060225 = 44.36689 x 8 = 354.93512 or it is now a 355 CI Like you said Paul not really gonna matter 5 cubic inches is not that much when you are talking about 350 total less than 1.5% increase. OK class dismissed you can go get ready for the OSU vs Michigan game.
Has a nice ring to it! Nice work Mark, great photos too. Makes me want to do another one! Only problem, they keep getting heavier and heavier, like building a boat in the basement. Sounds like you have a premium set of parts to go back in that bad boy. Good luck, have fun, smell the roses!
Ok did some work tonight got the block painted to an extent then realized it would be better to disassemble it and paint in pieces than trying to paint as a shell.
And after I took it back apart I realized I might as well get the cam, crank and mains in. So here goes
Cam being inserted and prelubed with moly prelube.
Cam inserted and getting ready for cranshaft
Crank in waiting for main caps to be installed (whats wrong with this picture?)
Ok mains are on and I am done for the night motor back in its blankey!
nothing is torqued down yet bolts are just snug so nothing moves. Still need to finish
getting the crank shaft timing gear the rest of the way on and set valve timing.
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 2, 2013 4:07 PM This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 2, 2013 4:06 PM
Looking at the casting numbers on the so-called 327F I got, it now appears it's a swap out from a Chevrolet passenger car or truck, with two bolt mains. Strange however, the 283 and 327F books don't show 4-bolt mains, so I'm wondering if this may be another improvement that came along with the Q series.
My parts book doesnt show 4 bolt mains either Paul my biggest problem at this point is it doesn't show any breakdown of the oil pump or splash shield either and the fact that you can't seem to buy an oil pump that accepts a threaded oil pump pickup as the Chris Craft pickup is a custom job for the huge oil pan. I am now searching for a 3/8 NPT tap to cut threads into the Melling HVHP oil pump I got with my rebuild kit. The old oil pump sure looks like a Melling pump. I even think if I wanted to I could disassemble it and use the base from the original pump but I am thinking last resort there. Meanwhile it is off to the local plumbing supply houses today to see if I can find a tap or get someone to tap it for me.
I'm at the end of a grueling work week so I'm not as sharp as I should be, but I recall a LOT of discussion in the past with some of my ford buddys on the Ford motor forums, that the HV pumps are okay, but the HP pumps are not necessarily a good thing. On a stock motor, I've been advised the stock oil pumps are fine. I don't want to pass on any bad info, so this may be something you'll want to check into with some people who know more than I do about the SBC, and they should be easy to find because I'm mostly a Ford guy.
Hope your project is coming along fine, we're trying to stay warm down here in TN right about now, as I suspect you are too.
Here are various postings from some of my FE hot rod buddies. Bottom line, stock pumps and HV pumps are fine, but stay away from HP pumps.
I ran both types.
The high pressure pump I run has 40 psi MORE than the high volume pump did, cold at idle.
The high pressure pump has 20 psi MORE than the high volume pump did WOT hot, also.
When idling hot, they both were about the same, 30 psi. Which is plenty. You only need 10 psi to keep your bearings afloat in oil at idle.
On a hot day in the summer, in traffic, my oil pressure does not go below 30 psi with the high pressure pump, even if my water temp happens to hit 200 in traffic and it's 98 degree out. That's plenty- you only need 10 psi to keep bearing afloat at idle.
High volume is commonly seen as insurance for opened up clearances, making sure the supply is adequate to meet demand; and also for continued hi rpm running. It is a larger pump.
Dave Shoe has on many occasions described that within an FE, high volume might cause more harm than good, by pumping the contents of the pan mostly to the top of the engine, and leaving the pump starving under hard acceleration, when the oil sloshes to the back.
A special pan with baffles to prevent oil sloshing to the back, and with extra capacity should accompany a high volume pump, if in a light weight acceleration FE car.
But back to your original question, do you need a hi V pump? someone should be able to answer that based on bearing clearances etc.
If you have a stock oil pump you don't need restrictors. You can add .090" restrictors if you want.
If you have a stock 5 quart oil pan, I sure hope to hell you have a stock oil pump.
If you've got a pan with more than 5 quarts capacity, and have installed either a HP, or HV, or HP/HP oil pump, you'll need to install restrictors in the head.
.090" is a good starting point with a HP or HV pump and hydraulic cam (rockers remain under tension and leak less).
.080" if you've got an HV/HP pump or else mechanical lifters.
.070" if you have both HV/HP and mechanicals.
.060" if you still have occasional smoking problems when you stick your foot back into it after a high RPM romp.
I prefer a lengthy orifice (a half inch or longer st the given diameter) to a shallow orifice, as restriction is both greater and more consistent from part to part.
I would stay away from the High Pressure pump as they tend to erode bearings. I would go with a High Volume pump whenever severe service is the normal use for the vehicle, BUT YOU MUST HAVE AN INCREASE IN OIL PAN CAPACITY TO PREVENT PUMPING THE PAN DRY. If the vehicle is just used as a daily driver with an occasional street race, the stock oiling system is more than adequate. Windage is not a problem on the top end of the motor, and a lot of oil up there doesn't hurt. As a matter of fact, the oil is all you have cooling the springs. You do want to be sure the oil can drain back to the pan quickly though. A windage tray between the pan, and the block will prevent the oil from becoming aerated. You don't want to be pumping bubbles. Also I fill the oil filter with oil before I install it, to prevent dry starts.
I have had this problem in an earlier engine. A Hypo 289 / 271 HP. I was running a high pressure pump with a Shelby 7 quart oil pan. When the motor was sent to be blueprinted, and disassembled, the bearings were obviously eroded. You could follow the path the oil was taking. The machinist knew right away what had caused it to happen. I didn't believe him, so I took the bearings to a couple of old timer friends of mine that had years of racing experience under their butts, and they looked at the bearings. Without another word they said, "You running a high pressure oil pump?" These old timer racers had seen this problem many times. I switched to a High Volume pump, and have never again seen this problem until about five years ago when a friend of mine showed me a set of bearings out of his 340 Plymouth Duster. He asked me if I had ever seen this before. I said, "Yep. Are you running a high pressure oil pump?" He said "Yep."
High volume pumps run at a higher pressure than stock pumps, BUT Not nearly as high as a high pressure pump. I would bury the needle on my gauge that read 120 psi at 2,500 rpm with 40W racing oil with my HP pump. At operating temperature it would read 90 psi. That is enough pressure to wash the soft bearing material away. I never had it happen with a HV pump though. Just don't install the high pressure spring that sometimes comes with them.
Unless you're racing hard all the time, a good oem pump with a windage tray is all you need. That keeps oil in the pan and not too much on top and on the bearings. Save yourself the worry of emptying the pan for no reason. I've used both and won't use a HV or HP pump again even when I race. I have as of yet to see an advantage using anything but good oem. Just remember the oil pump is not a hydralic pump but rather simply a supply pump. I run synthetic 10/30 in a hot 390 with 100hp nitros shot and have never had an oil related failure using an oem pump. I've blown a head or two, but that's another story.
Had two engines go over 500,000 miles using high volume
pumps, and large oil pans. Both were raced quite often, and driven hard on a regular basis. Never did it with a stock pump. The most I ever got was between 250 and 300,000 miles.
The type of pump will be determined by a marriage of it to your..clearances in the bearings, and the rpm band your engine runs in. As I stated in the last post, if you are running the high end of stock clearances, and it is used primarily for the street, the High Pressure pump would work well. The 427 motor runs in a higher rpm band, which makes the oil supply a little more demanding than a 428 I feel. Still, an HP Melling would do the job in my opinion. Back in the 1960's, guy's like 'Gas' Rhonda, who ran 427 side-oiler motors with great success, didn't have high volume oil pumps. They ran a modified stock pump, with higher pressure. If anyone reading this remembers Gas Rhonda, and how he used to run, maybe you'll appreciate the point I'm trying to make. I knew Gas Rhonda casually back then. He was at the top of his game.
In 1967, I ran 430 ci. and even 462 ci. Lincoln MEL motors blown and injected on gas. The MEL motors are big country cousins of the 428/427's. The bearing journal area size is much larger than the 428/427's, therefore, needing more oil! Back then, I figured out that the oil inlet hole in the block from the oil pump, was too small. I drilled them out to the filter the size of the discharge size of the pump. I don't remember that size now. I ran aluminum rods, which requires a little more clearance for bearings, and the clearances I used were, are you ready? - .004 on the mains, and .005 on the rods. I used a stock oem oil pump, because that's all their was, and removed the oil relief cap for the spring. I added two 1/4" galvanized washers, and ran it. The engine would pulsate when idling, but the pressue for idle was about 60 lbs. It ran 80 lbs. of pressure in the lights. I spun this big ole monster to 7,200 rpm through the gears, and went through the lights at about 6,800 rpm. The point is, what a modified stock pump could do with just pressure increase. Read what Mario says in his post on this thread. He makes, as usual, some valid points about all this.
In closing, I think that blue-printing for the street, makes more sense. That is, attention to detail, rather than trying to over-engineer. Having the oil pump blue-printed by a competent shop would be money well spent. This is my opinion only, and you will have to make the final call.
A little advice please. I have an apparently stock 428CJ and am changing the dented oil pan. I'm staying with a stock pan. So should I stay with a stock oil pump? No oil mods as far as I know. Not for racing, but I may eventually do a pass or two.
I always use the HV pump.
And in the end, here’s a posting your forum host wrote in 2003 about the subject. Sheesh, the guy has an opinion !!! eeek!
I contend FORD did a better job engineering the 427 than the guy at
the local parts counter can, and much better than I can. Therefore,
I recommend staying with the stock oil pump. Justification to follow.
Just because they SELL a HV and HP oil pump for the 427, and just
because it will FIT a marine 427, is NO justification to bolt one
on. These aftermarket pumps are for specialty non-stock applications
and are simply not needed in a stock marine motor. Here is a thread
for your perusal, between two very informed friends who have raced
and built the 427 engines for a long time. I thought it would be
enlightening to show what kind of problems you can get into when
modifying something that is already well proven on the NASCAR tracks,
etc. Note the comment about the standard top oiler being a very good
oiling design, and the side oiler only being developed to serve the
needs of the SOHC "cammer".
Although there is something to be said for a HV pump, the stock pump
works just fine. One problem with the Ford heads, is if you get a
pump that pumps too much volume (such as the HV), and you don't
modify other parts of the motor accordingly to accept this additional
volume, you can, indeed, fill the heads with oil (especially at
higher rpm) and this will cause lots of oil to get sucked through the
valve stems. I understand some people go to the aftermarket pumps
because they build a "loose engine" intended to run at the drag
strip......and this is NOT the formula you want to use in a stock
marine engine that's going to last a long time and consume little
oil, etc. Guys, from everything I've heard, the stock Mellings oil
pump is a fine unit. Henry Ford spent untold millions developing
this engine in the 1960s, and they generally ran them until they
broke, found the weak link, fixed it, and then ran them again until
they broke. On something so basic and important, I'm sure Ford
engineers gave the oil pump due consideration.
Here is the exchange, for your reading enjoyment............
I think I may need to add oil restrictors to my engine. It's run-in
now with the new heads about 1,200 miles and it's just starting to
puff under trailing throttle after the rpms have been up for a while,
so I think I'm pulling oil down the guides. Heads are Edelbrock, so
they have good thread on PC seals, but it has Erson billet rollers
and shafts so I lost my stock stamped oil deflectors. I suspect I'm
piling a good quart in each valve cover after a run through the
gears, and with a little wear on the seals by now, they're letting
some oil by.
What's the best way to do this restrictor thing today? Decades ago
when I was previously into FE's a friend machined (2) little aluminum
bushings with orifice drillings - the bushings simply fit in the
annular space around the rocker shaft bolt/stud under the stand that
feeds the oil to the rocker shaft on each side.
Does someone sell such an item now?
Ed drills the oil feed passage larger than factory FE heads, so the
standard Holley jet doesn't work.
Orifice diameter typically ranges from .090" to .060", depending on
pump, cam, stuff like that. Solid lifter cams allow more oil to flow
upstairs, since the rocker is unloaded for part of the cycle, whereas
hydraulic cams always load the rocker, keeping the oil feed hole snug
against the rocker. some aftermarket rockers create a whole different
kind of flow dynamic upstairs, so you've gotta hypothesize,
experiment, and speak to folk about your particular setup, being
careful to not follow bad advice that is so often offered.
A factor not often spoken of is the length of the restrictor. Whether
the orifice is about 1/16" deep (typical carb jet), or 1" or so deep
(drilled rod), the flow can vary greatly just by the length and
The port to restrict on each head is readily available with the
rockershafts removed. It's the port that travels up through the head
to the drip tray. Since I don't know exactly what restrictor is
preferreed for Edelbrocks, I'd recommend being creative and
experiment a little. Hopefully someone else can clarify. If no one
does, the orifice diameter will likely be close to .070", and the
weight of your truck will hopefully prevent it from accelerating so
hard that oil will tend to slosh out of the poan to the rear of the
I lived through this issue for a couple years, rapidly wearing out
bearings and hearing hydraulic lifter clatter on hard turns with an
80PSI/HV pump. When I installed a performance pan, the oiling
problems went away and bearings lasted a long time. Still, I'd get
the occasional smoke bursts after a hard romp, and eventually moved
on to restricting the heads to resolve that.
I've still got a new 100PSI blueprinted pump from FPP which I had the
guts to buy 15 years ago but never had the guts to install. I now
know how to install one properly, but don't presently have any
applications that need these specs. Maybe someday.
I've seen a few FE motors blow, and know of others that have blown
because they followed the "written word" on upgrading an FE oiling
system. The only good documents on how to upgrade an FE oiling system
will start by discussing the oil pan. When you've found one of these
articles, thn you are on the right track. Invariably, any article
that starts off with "the FE top oiling system is bad", is NOT a good
article, as top oiling has always provided great performance on the
track. The sideoiler came about because of the Cammer's unique oiling
requirements, not because there was a noted deficiency in the FE's
top oiling system. The topoiling FE is a great racing oiling system,
and has proven itself for decades, despite what many writers will
have you believe.
You don't need to run drip trays. Just get a good balance to your
oiling system, and start thinking of what type of pan and pump you
will install next convenient chance you get.
HV and HP oil pumps on 427 motors
I knew there were standard Mellings
pumps and also HV/HP pumps, and by nature I thought the HV and HP
were one and the same. I've heard a lot about "not needing" so-
called upgraded pumps in the 427. I have heard a lot about the
aftermarket pumps causing problems, as I understand they can put
additional and unnecessary strain on oil pump and related drive
components. Most of this informatin comes from people who have
increased the power of the 427 up into the 450 to 600-hp range, and
they think they need more oil flow and pressure, which may be true;
however, when engines are hot rodded like that, you need ALL of the
related issues taken care of like additional drain-back holes,
restriction of the rocker arm assy (to avoid putting unnecessary oil
up there when the real priority is getting it to the main bearings),
etc., etc. Without proper mods to go along with those higher
performance oil pumps, they can fill your valve covers with oil at
sustained higher rpm and starve out the mains. The standard oil pump
(Mellings) is certainly not a "weak link" on a marine 427. From
everything I've heard, the standard
Mellings type oil pump is fine for marine non-hot-rodding use.
(bottom line, stock pumps are okay, HV pumps are okay, but HP pumps are not okay unless it's for a specific racing application)
OK I have finally got back to working on the motor. I was installing the pistons last night when the ring compressor jumped and I ruined a top compression ring, mind you this is a moly ring so. I called Hastings today since I can't find a single ring locally just sets. Explain to me this 1 top moly ring is $9.34. A set is around $39 a single cylinder set is $7.34 so which one do you think I bought?
Crazy how things like that work out. Janet bought me a 17' wood speedboat, gosh, must have been 20-years ago now. The price was $650 if we took the boat (and the old boat next to it) ~~ or ~~ it was $1000 if we just took the 17' wood speedboat.
We've since restored the 17' speedboat and installed a healthy 327 with 300-hp. The other boat is now a full size half model, mounted on the wall of the living room. It sat around on the farm for years, and finally after it was barn wood gray, I decided to see if I could cut it in half, because it was really a gonner. It had been repaired with the wrong wood, it was fiberglassed, they used drywall screws, etc. So I took a chain saw, cut it down one side of the keel, left the steering wheel (starboard side) and rudder operational, finished it up like a Steinway piano with new transom, dash, and top decks, and the dang thing sure looks good in the house. Yes, I'm nuts. It just does me good to be reminded frequently.
Back to your motor reassembly. Hope your luck is all good. All the best,
Ok keeping the posts small for the dial up guys and gals.
Next ring gap for the top moly ring
And here is a drawing of how all the ring gaps go the mark in the piston on the left is the dot
on the top of piston that faces forward in the motor, the bottom gaps are center, oil ring
bottom left scraper ring bottom right scraper ring, top right 2nd groove ring top left moly compression ring
Placing a ring on the piston with my ring expander tool
(not easy to shoot pic and do the deed at the same time)
PHOTO OF THE DAY AWARD (December 14, 2006)
Edit Comment: "The first photo above was awarded the "Photo of the Day" on December 14 because of the descriptive graphic how to documentation, clarity, and composition.
Nice job (as usual), Doc!
The following comments were noted on December 14, 2006:
With the hands of a surgeon, Dr. Mark Weller performs open heart surgery on a Chris Craft 350Q, doing the difficult scraper/compression ring-o-rama trans-pistonola manuver. You may notice he's photographing the work with his other hand. Amazing! The motor is no longer a Chris Craft 350Q. It is technically a Weller 355Q due to the fact that its been bored out and now has 5 additional cubic inches. This motor is also sporting a new Chris Craft camshaft, new lifters, all new bearings, new seals, etc. It will see duty next season running between Sandusky, Ohio, and Mark's favorite boating destination, Kellys Island, located out in Lake Erie. Sharing our various boating projects like this with other people around the world is a great educational service, and it's fun too! Many thanks go out to Dr. Weller for taking the time to document all of this good work!
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 2, 2013 4:09 PM This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Dec 14, 2006 3:24 AM
Those pistons are obviously from the "new era" of motor design when the small block Chevy began replacing the standard Hercules inline six. Take a look at the Zollner piston for a Hercules motor, and you'll see what I'm talking about.
ABOVE: JXD Hercules pistons by Zollner, not exactly a design that would be happy at high rpm.
Look at the skirt on that thing! These were smaller bore and very long crankshaft throws, developing lots of torque and redlining at around 3000 to 3200 rpm. Great motors, but the SBC is by far, a better design for power, and it weighs less too.
The Hercules I hauled out of a 1956 CC speedboat weighed 680 pounds. The SBC I installed (obtained from a CC Super Sport a few years newer) weighed AT LEAST 100 pounds less and developed TWO HUNDRED MORE HORSEPOWER.
Looks like you're project is coming along very well. Thanks for sharing the photos and offering us some tips. You know, some day someone out there in cyberspace will be referring to these exact same images, to be sure he's doing the job right. Posts like this can be extremely beneficial to someone.
Ok the Holidays are over it has warmed up some here in Northern Ohio and I have been able to get 2 nights in on the motor. Last night I torqued all the connecting rod bolts and installed the oil pump and windage tray. Tonight I got the oil pan on and the camshaft/crankshaft sprockets aligned and torqued. Not much I know but I couldn't find the dam loctite when I started tonight and had to make a trip to the local chain parts store boy I wish there were still some good auto parts stores around with people who know more than look it up in a computer. Ok off soapbox back on garage floor sorry guys no pictures as when I went looking for my camera I cant seem to find it I know its here somewhere but not sure where. I will find it tomorrow and document anything I do tomorrow night. I have some good stuff once I find the camera concerning water pumps and the Q cooling sytem it is almost as strange as the FE's cooling system.
My pressure relief valves went in to the hot tank with the manifolds and risers in 05 when I had everything leak tested by Griffs machine shop. (I told you guys these people knew what they were doing) They tested everything including the relief valves in fact Gary specifically told me not to take them apart as he did not have gaskets for them and it would be a few days in getting them out of Michigan. He said and I quote "just bring them to me intact and I have the adapters to test them for pressure and leak down DO NOT take them apart gaskets are not easy to come by" if there is a problem we will get gaskets and then retest.
No I did not even go looking for the camera tonight as I knew that I had much more boring things to do like wire wheeling various parts to get them ready for paint. So my eveningn consisted of wire wheeling a few pats to get them ready for paint and prep work. Got the old grease and various gunk off, proceeded to work the parts on the wheel a little longer to see what happend and it turned out well very few partd will need to go to chromer. and the rest are paintable parts Hoo boy
Ok boys and girls we did get some work done today between cleaning the garage and watching NFL playoffs.
The Drive plate and damper hub going on
Remote Oil Filter adapter going on (the amazing thing was all the brass was painted not any more)
Timing cover in place, the openning is for the fuel pump mount another
bracket bolts on for the fuel pump, it is off to install pump push rod.
OK here ya go boys a shot of the pistons in and I am getting ready to put the heads back on but that will wait for another night.
In this view you are loooking at cylinders 1,3,5, and 7 from left to right and the cam installs from the right side of the view. I know Chris did it backward but by mounting the engine in this manner they created a very low profile motor for overall height when mounted in the boat.
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 2, 2013 4:13 PM
Ok we got some more work done tonight so here are the pictures
The block is ready for some lifters and heads
Smearing molly prelube on the base of the lifters
Inserting lifter in block
Head gasket on getting ready for heads
edit comment noted below:
PHOTO OF THE DAY AWARD (January 22, 2007)
Edit Comment: "The top photo above (showing the white castings and exposed pistions) was awarded the "Photo of the Day" on January 22. This is one of many photos that could have been used, but this one has an especially interesting composition and clarity, showing off those new pistons and bores!
The following comments were noted on January 19, 2007:
Heres a thing of beauty, and its getting more beautiful every day before our eyes! Its a carefully re-bored 350Q Chris Craft motor that Mark Weller is presently putting back together, with a complete photo documentation here on the forum. Complete with new pistons and a cylinder wall re-bore job, this motor is actually 355 cubic inch displacement right now. As things go back together, Mark is detail painting everything. When it comes to a rebuild or a block replacement, rebuilding has many advantages, because you know what you have in terms of parts, casting designs, and the ability to fit back into the boat, etc. The quality of the block and internal parts on a Chris Craft marine engine, may well be better than what you can buy today in an exchange long block. Rather than run the risk of getting a rebuilt Taxi motor instead of the heavy duty marine motor, rebuilding assures youll have marine grade equipment.
In case you didnt see the additional photos in this thread, this motor is equipped with 4-bolt main bearings. 350Q motors have many differences from other small block GM motors, and Mark obviously knows these differences inside and out. A great resource here for the Q motors, Mark is the resident expert. Thanks again, Mark, for sharing all of these great photos and tips.here for the Q motors, Mark is the resident expert. Thanks again, Mark, for sharing all of these great photos and tips!!
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 2, 2013 4:17 PM This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 2, 2013 4:16 PM This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 22, 2007 6:41 PM
The more I look at your photos, the more I see and understand how much different the 350Q is from a 327F, for instance. That bell housing sorta looking enclosure around your damper, is totally different than anything I have.
Are you going to run this on a stand hooked up to a garden hose? What's the plan? You could probably get the attention of the neighbors, break out some beer, have some BBQ, fire up the motor and hose down the driveway!
I love the recently common choice of painting the castings white. All that much easier to spot issues later. And pretty snappy looking with some chrome and braided stainless. If I ever get around to giving the bellow deck area the same love I give the topsides, this would be my choice as well. BTW, I know that will be a bad ass bow tie when your done as well!
Actualy they are not white it is Almond but in al the photos it does look white My motors were originally an almond or off white color almost beige. PO sprayed everything with paint at some time but I did ask the machine shop if they found any blue in hot tanking the block etc... No was the answer and I know the parts I stripped on the wheel had no blue anywhere. So I can tell you now that Chris did make them in white my surveyor said he has seen whiute before also mostly in the 75 76 era and according to him only on the Q's. The one thing I did do was strip paint from all copper lines and Bronze parts I think it is going to look good in Almond and Shiny bronze and copper. Heck half my rubber hoses were painted, not any more. And yes Paul Iam trying to figure out how to fire it on the stand there is a problem and I will photograph it tomorrow or the next day. Meanwhile I taking tomorrow off to go to the Cleveland Boat & Waterfront Lifestyle Expo this weekend with a bunch of my fellow YC members. If anyone out there is going to be there tomorrow meet us in the Round House Bar sometime in the afternoon try around 2 pm or so you will see us in our All Ports Yacht Club Clothing we will be the loud bunch. Come introduce yourself and say Hi you may get an invite to a special party.
Ok I haven't done much lately but it has been way too cold to try and heat the garage here in Ohio. With the temps currently hovering around the mid teens, I have no desire to go freeze in the garage while trying to torque bolts etc. Besides I had a hold up in the fact that I needed to paint the flywheel cover, an dtonight that seemed like a good idea. I brought it in the house and went in the basement to do a littel prep and paint work.
Pic 1 show it how it looked after being wiped down with mineral spirits ready for some primer.
Pic 2 shows it all done and ready to go on motor.
This pic is my Sherwood raw water pump all done with the wheel decided not to paint
but to leave it bronze I think it looks better that way.
and another shot of it
And one last pic for you Paul I hope you are warm down there in Tennesee cause it is Dang COLD here in Ohio. I just checked the weather site, you dont have it much better at 20, But it is down to 10 in Toledo so I know what's coming.
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 2, 2013 4:20 PM
Thanks for the photo Mark, only problem was this morning ours was 3 or 4 degrees colder!!! That cold front dropped like a brick all the way into Tennessee. Saturday was nice, I was out in my solar heated temporary cocoon this week-end, Saturday was great, Sunday was okay until it got later in the day and then the temp dropped like a rock and I gave up. When the temp started dropping and the wind picked up, I finally decided it was time for a beer, came inside, stoked up the fireplace and thawed out.
This is my new home away from home, presently all torn apart, stocked with beer, electric heat, Television, and lots and lots of tools ! On many a day when it's been raining, I've been able to work on my project in a dedicated space. My barn and workshop are full, and this was the only fast and temporary solution to an unexpected problem. A boy has to have a hobby, and sometimes the more the better!!! The optical illusion in this photo makes it look tighter than it really is, because I actually have a table saw set up on the front port side, along with a mitre saw, and saw horses on the front starboard where I do my painting prior to reinstallation. I need to document the wood structural frame I'm going to reinstall, pretty wild looking chassis they used under the two front seats, now stronger and a little bit heavier.
I have my project half inside and half outside now, so I'll be working on the inside stuff as it really gets cold. During the day if the sun shines, I get good heat, and I have one of those oil-filled electric heater jobs that helps too.
Good to see you making progress, it looks like you're getting ready for a boat show?? Just a word of caution, I think I saw a finger print in the corner of one of those photos, ha ha (not really).
Well it was over 20 degrees in Ohio today nothing like the heat wave Paul had in Nashville. But I did get some time in on the motor today finally it seems like months since I hace been able to work on it.
Pic 1 a view of the engine you haven't seen in a while as you can see I got the flywheel cover on and the distributor is in place just in case the motor turns at all.
Pic 2 the engine from the back showing the water inlet for the block and the bracket at the top is for the remote oil filter.
Pic 3 show the remote oil filter adapter installed with the lines to the adapter
I will continue this in another post so that it doesn't get to large for the dialup folks.
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 2, 2013 4:22 PM
Pic 1 in this post is the remote oil filter lines which were painted along with all the brass fittings I spent a lot of time with my wire wheel on my bench grinder, that thing is great for removing paint from parts it just didn't seem right to have all that brass and copper painted.
Pic 2 is the remote adapter on the enginge itself which is where the oil filter normally is one of the best things Chris Craft and a lot of other manufacturers did was to install remote oil filters.
Ok a couple more pics for fun first is for Paul who was enjoying a balmy day in Nashville my digital multi meter has a temp sensor. The pic after that is what I gave myself for a job well done and the third is how it looks in the glass. I don't know about you guy but to me there is nothing better than a dark dark beer for a reward.
PHOTO OF THE DAY AWARD (February 12, 2007)
Edit Comment: "The photo above was awarded the "Photo of the Day" February 12, 2007, because it is an interesting photo expression of the concept of "the rewards of hard work". Mark is working on a rather rare small block Chevy motor here, that uses it's own specific firing order and many unique features only found on this series of Chris Craft "Q" motors. Mark is living right there on the doorstep to Lake Erie, in Sandusky, a town with a fantastic boating history and culture, and it is only fitting that he chose a glass of "Great Lakes Stout" for his reward. Well done Mark! (I wish I was there to help you drink that six pack )
The following comments were noted on February 4 & 5, 2007:
(ABOVE:) We could have shown the beautiful job Mark Weller is doing on the reassembly and detailing of his 350Q, but nooo! We're featuring the celebratory reward Mark treated himself to after spending an evening working on the motor. Weve had engine photos, prop photos, family portraits, all kinds of detail photos of pumps and impellers, and even a photo of a nice big plate of Spanish paella, but never a close-up photo of a glass of dark beer ! This image caused a chuckle out loud when it came up on the screen. You can even see the tiny little bubbles, sheesh, its enough to make a guy head for the refrigerator!
A glass of Great Lakes Brewing Company, Blackout Stout, is a fitting reward for just about any sort of boat related work. Now its the reward that keeps on giving (for a week!) with world-wide circulation! To see Marks latest addition to his now 12-part how to rebuild a 350Q Chris Craft motor, check out the following link. Hey Mark, nice job on that motor, by the way !
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 2, 2013 4:25 PM This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Feb 13, 2007 3:03 AM
Very nice, indeed, Mark. I like the fact that you took the time to clean everything up, and the copper lines look great too. They may eventually turn penny brown, but they'll still look very good on this engine.
My question is, what are you going to do about the "other motor" ? Are you going to finish it up in place to match? If anyone wants to see your motors, you could always just lift the hatch on this one and watch their jaw drop, lol.
Keep up the good work, I have really enjoyed your thread here. As I am working on my next motor project, I am sure there will be some flashbacks to this thread, and maybe I'll dial it up for reference too.
Valve train assembly time installed 16 pushrods, 16 rocker arms and set the valve lash on all tonight. it is getting close to fire it up time. I just might have to figure out a way to do that on the engine stand if I can. OK so here goes with the photos
Pic 1 16 pushrods laid out on top of the intake ready to be installed.
Pic 2 prelubing the pushrods just cause I like the idea. there is more prelube in this motor than at the autoparts store down the street.
Pic 3 pushrods, rocker arms and the appropriate fasteners installed ready to be adjusted.
Last but not least all done for the night all installed and adjusted to spec ready for valve covers and the rest of the hardware. Got to get to NAPA and see how many molded hoses they can match up for me. Then I can get the cooling system finished off.
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 2, 2013 4:27 PM
For anyone in the future who is going to be working on one of these Q motors, including marine mechanics at any of the resto shops, this is a great reference for them. I have a question about that valve gear, and that is, "when did CC transition to hydraulic lifters" on these motors? Anyone know? Is yours a solid or hydraulic motor? Just curious as there is a mighty big difference in setting the valves initially.
Thanks again for the nice work with the camera! Have one for me!
The Q motors are all hydraulic lifters not sure when CC tranitioned to the hydraulic lifter but I think it was with the Q series. The 327 F series were mechanical as were the 283 M series. the newer G K series were hydraulic also they were used in the 80's I believe. So thats the about all I know The earliest instance of the Q series started appearing in the Commanders and other models in the 60's. I would think the marine industry would have transitioned to hydraulic lifters shortly after the auto industry. Actually about the time they ran out of motors from the last series. Chris Craft and a lot of other manufacturers bought stuff in bulk and then kept it on hand for obvious reasons. So there is my very limited knowledge on the subject.
1969 appears to be the first year of the hydraulic CC SBC motor
February 13 2007, 8:48 PM
Okay, I hope I get it right this time (thanks Paul, for the assistance). I guess I better read the preview better next time !!
There may have been a few in 1968, but looking through the EG shows a LOT of boats that had production runs up to and including 1968 and none seem to use the Q motor.
There are many boats that started production in 1968 and ran several years, and they show the Q being used, but I suspect it was not in 1968, except for a very few. I also suspect that certain models that had a history of using the 327F, for instance, stayed with that motor instead of transitioning over, while a new model that was just introduced may have opted for the newer motor designation, but the 1968 / 1969 23 Commander seems to bust this theory.
In any case, if asked in a trivia contest "when did CC go to the hydraulic SBC", I would have to say 1969 (and that's my final answer).
My not-so-thorough research for the afternoon. And now I suppose there will be people jumping out of the woodwork to prove this wrong, lol.
The 1966 to 1968 36' Crusader pf 495 of the EG was offered with the 327Q so much for for 1969 being the first year. But I will agree that it was in that time frame and I think you may be right about them running out of 327F right around that time and going to the Q. The interesting thing I noticed was how many boats in that time fram have just 327 listed with no letter designation. Think they don't really know what was in them for sure? Example the 22 sportsman on pg 511 just list 283 and 327 made from 1965 to 1967 hmmmm? Also the 1969 35' Sedan is listed as having just 327 no letter designation and it was only made that year pg. 559. As usual with Chris Craft they were always testing something so you can't really say to often that they did this or they did that.
Well its all downhill from here the valve covers are on and the carb is sitting there we are jsut waiting for some weather so it can go back to the boat and be dropped down into the salon again. Then I can move it over to its proper place in the boat. I may go up to the boat this weekend and do some bilge cleaning where the motor goes. Let's think if I take a space heater and a long extension cord I might even stay warm. Any was here are some photos from last week as I was finishing up.
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 2, 2013 4:28 PM
I would love to bench run it but there are a few issues with that
1. exhaust manifolds are on the boat awful heavy to get them down from 10 ft in the air.
2. no cooling sytem without exhaust manifolds
3. oil from pan is held in by transmission being bolted up to motor
I am open to ideas on this such as the oil isnt such a big issue I think I could put a piece of cardboard there to keep it from splashing out no pressure in the pan. The exhaust manifolds kind of bother me if I just had something to bolt up there it might be ok. The cooling system is made to work with the manifolds inplace I am sure I could reroute the water but would have to look long and hard at that. So my current plan is to fire them on land in the boat with no belt on the raw water pump to make sure thay fire then put the boat in the water. It will be broken in with a few simple rules no exceeding 2000 rpm for more than 30 seconds during ring seat varying of rpms on a regular basis and so on and so forth. I have a schedule from Lee Dahlen as to break in that I will follow. But like I said I am open to ideas on how to bench fire.
I suppose you could get some junker iron SBC exh manifolds for the test run
March 6 2007, 5:35 PM
Running a motor with no exhaust manifold can be downright dangerous as there are 8 blow torches shooting flames and LOTS OF NOISE. The entire neighborhood would be up in arms, perhaps DEFCON 2 depending on your neighborhood.
I suppose you could hook up a couple of mufflers and do the run in at the house, with cooling water running through the block. Some of your neighbors would appreciate it, some would not
Me? If I were in your neighborhood I would be miffed if I wasn't invited over for this event, given a beer, and an opportunity to get a little oil or dirt on my hands!
Good hearing from you, Mark! Hope all is well with you and yours!
It would be a pleasure to get a little dirt from a CC motor on my hands!
I agree with Roy, it would be fun to be able to run the motor at 1500-rpm long enough to properly break it in, check for leaks, whatever, prior to installation in the boat, but all that prep may be more work than just lifting it into th boat and hooking up the proper stuff.
I fired up an open exhaust marine motor with no cooling one afteroon, just ran it long enough to warm things up and make some noise. It was pointed down the valley, and wow, what an awesome echo it made!!! The neighbors were "unaffected", lol.
Yes the motor is running sorry guys I couldn't find anyone to film the first fire and it wasn't pretty it spent some time sounding like an old warhorse no problems just wore out then I had a good friend who knows motors and lo and behold I have a boat with two motors that run. distributors out of whact etc......
Just a note to all the guys out there who were needing this info and wondering why none of the photos were coming up: Mark changed from his APYC web site to another site, and when he did so all the photo links that were posted anywhere vanished. Thankfully your intrepid forum host had nothing better to do during this time frame than to archive these great photos because the thread was such a good one, and believe it or not we have resurrected the entire thread.
For all you guys out there with the Q motors, ENJOY, compliments of Mark Weller. (thanks again Mark, for posting such QUALITY info here on The Forum). I was lucky to have archived the photos, just did so as an insurance policy.
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Jan 2, 2013 4:32 PM