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Weight Estimate for 327Q & P32AL

August 3 2010 at 6:33 PM
Kevin Bray  (Login KL_Bray)

Anybody have an idea what a 327Q w/Paragon P32AL tranny weighs?

Furthermore, in light of the fact I think I'll be pulling the motor & tranny out of my port side here very soon, will a 4X4 engine hoist safely support that weight?

Thanks!

Kevin Bray
'06 CC Launch 22
FXA-31-4049

 
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AuthorReply
Paul
(no login)

1,000 pounds

August 3 2010, 9:11 PM 

Your 327Q would be very similar to this 350Q, and you're looking at pretty darn close to 1,000 pounds when you consider the added weight of oil and water in the block.

When you ask whether or not a 4x4 will hold it, we need to take into consideration what the span of the 4x4 would be. I'm an overkill guy when it comes to structural safety issues, be safe because dropping a 1,000 pound load on the fiberglass hull might not be too much fun! happy.gif

I looked in the Paragon manuals and they seem to have everything but the weight. From experience, even the little HF7 in my 20' Skiff is very heavy, I think it is right around 100 pounds. I could actually lift it momentarily, but I could not put it down. I had to lean against a wall and slide it to the ground. Not too smart, so I quit while I was ahead.

Regards, best,

Paul

[linked image]

 
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Mike W
(no login)

Agreed

August 3 2010, 9:18 PM 

I was going to say 1500 but mine has a v drive. Those Paragons are at least 100. Play it safe. Sometimes things slip so the more the better. Consider a glue laminated beam as they are lighter and stronger. A 4x4 should work but they are for vertical support and only as strong as the weakest point in the tree. Where a glued beam is made for lateral support. Just a thought.

Mike

 
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Kevin Bray
(Login KL_Bray)

Trust me, safety is my priority

August 4 2010, 10:51 AM 

Thanks for the reply.

I was looking at Mark Weller's setup for lifting his 350Q. Seems simple enough. But he didn't lift the transmission with his motor, so I started trying to research what the total weight might be and the structural strength of a 4X4.

The span will be along the long axis of the engine hatch on my 31' Express. There's alot of discussion on the web regarding the strength of a 4X4 beam. It looks like the 4X4 would be fine. I could even brace it with a couple of pieces of angle steel. Or...I could sister / laminate a couple of 2X6's, or 2X8's for the beam, and put the with longer dimension vertical for superior load strength to the 4X4.

Here's an engineering question for you - span of 6' with solid supports on each end. Does a 4X4 have better load capabilities at the center point than a 2X4 with the 4" side vertical? Wood types being the same.

There's a Tractor Supply store very close to my house that has both chain & cable hoists.

It's time to get this port side engine & tranny taken care of.

Thanks!

Kevin Bray
'06 CC Launch 22
FXA-31-4049

 
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Paul
(no login)

Lose the 2x4 and 4x4

August 4 2010, 11:19 AM 

The danger here is many fold.

First of all there are many types of 2x4 lumbers out there. There is even a designation of SPF whith stands for Spruce/Pine/Fir and they cut whatever they get and toss it in. SPF siding is notorious for warping badly.

Some of the 2x4 lumber is just a step above balsa wood, it looks like a 2x4, it's so light punky wood it has little strength and is only suitable for holding up a drywall partition. Some of it, southern yellow pine, if good long grain pieces are selected can be very strong and used for structural use. I doubt if you'll find fir 2x4 lumber readily available but it is quite stong too. Stika Spruce is awesome wood, but most likely too expensive to be relegated to the mundane use of 2x4, it is best used in aircraft (and hydroplane) construction.

4x4 lumber is not commonly used as a beam structure, most of it is treated, very wet when you get it, and twice as heavy as when it finally dries out. Some of it acts like a big rubber eraser when loaded. It is mostly used as a column or landscape use, and not a beam. Using a single 4x4 subjects you to any flaw in the wood, such as a knot at mid span where you might not be able to see it. You can get the 4x4 in a non treated lumber, preferred for this, but a single 4x4 is not what I would like to see as the safe overkill.

I'd rather see 3 hand selected nice long grain yellow pine 2x6 pieces (with the long leg up on each 2x6) instead of three 2x4 or a 4x4. The lumber is cheap, you can re-use it on another project later. Mike's comment about laminated beams are right on, the laminations remove the risk of a single piece of wook having a hidden flaw. They're expensive, and I would just go with the 2x6 lumber long leg up, nailed together for stability, see how she goes, which in essence would give you the same thing as a laminated beam, in a little different orientation. In addition, I would shore the beam up with a 4x4 if there was a good place to do it.

In order for us to assist, it would be good if you could send a sketch, photos, showing how you plan to do this. That is the only way we can really give you good advice.

Handling this much weight on 2x lumber is risky, because even if the load can be lifted, once it is in the air if you try to move it laterally, unless your assembly is adequately braced against lateral forces with triangulated plywood gussets or similar, it can start to move on it's own and just come down like a tree that has been chopped thin at the base. Nails don't work very well, through bolts with washers do. Dropping all that weight on the bottom of a hull would most likely result in a hull failure. What's much worse than a hull failure, is a personal injury. The big iron is tough, slow, and nasty to move around.

Regards,

Paul

 
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Kevin Bray
(Login KL_Bray)

Orientation?

August 4 2010, 11:56 AM 

Paul,

Thanks.

Are you saying to stack the 2X6's with the 6" dimension horizontal? My simple mind seems to think putting the 6" surface vertical would provide better strength while putting the 6" surface horizontal will provide more flexibility.

Also, would it be better to glue / laminate the boards together than to nail or screw them together?

Thanks!

Kevin Bray
'06 CC Launch 22
FXA-31-4049

 
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Paul
(no login)

Long leg vertical

August 4 2010, 12:58 PM 

Long leg up in the vertical orientation always is stronger in a beam. Otherwise it would sag under it's own weight.
Putting three together like this, with bolts to assure they didn't go somewhere on their own, would be good. In addition,
be sure you don't have some sort of a setup or come-along lifting mechanism that makes the beam want to rotate or move laterally.
It's like painting a car, the prep is everything.

If this would be spanning all the way from port to starboard across both engines, then you would need to put a 4x4 at mid span to shore it up, for safety. The beam would need to be secured so it did not want to move forward or aft too.

[linked image]

regards,

Paul

 
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Kevin Bray
(Login KL_Bray)

The power of this forum.

August 4 2010, 1:13 PM 

A picture is worth a thousand words....

Thanks Paul.

Thanks!

Kevin Bray
'06 CC Launch 22
FXA-31-4049

 
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Jerry
(no login)

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin....

August 4 2010, 8:47 PM 

Paul, Kevin and All:
Kevin, so far you have made 1 good move,(raising the question on the forum)and many bad ones. First, you should have certainly consulted a Texas Aggie Engineer about this. After all We are called TEXAS A&M (M for Mechanical). We are trained in this kind of thing as freshmen and would even help a Tea-sipper (for a substantial fee of course!)

But since the tu longhorns have had a substantial winning streak in football without getting caught for cheating, I will help you out. Forget this wood business. Go down to the metal shop and buy a 6 inch I-beam either of iron or Aluminum (if you can find it) about 7 or 8 feet long. Harbor freight has a rolling winch hoist that will roll along this I-Beam. You can also and very cheaply, fabricate an A frame for either end using pipe for the legs welded to a U or box shaped piece for the ends and pinned in place to set it up. You now have a rig that is safe. (hint: set the a-frame legs at angles of about 35 degrees to the vertical to ensure stability.) Yes, you can even put the pipe ends on wheels. This is good for pulling engines on cars also. On your boat, set it up so that it will clear the inside ceiling. You can roll the hoist along the I-beam once you have the motor and tranny suspended. You will be even more glad to have this rig when you go to put the noisemaker back in place and need to jiggle it around a bit to fit it back in.

Once finished with it, you can sell it to a car repair guy for what you have in it. I kept mine and now use it to hoist in the Rockfish we catch here on the Cheasepeake.
Would I lie?
Jerry. Summer Palace

 
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Kevin Bray
(Login KL_Bray)

Did I just get called out? :-)

August 5 2010, 11:28 AM 

Hi Jerry.

While I've never met you, you're one of my favorite Aggies. How far did you lean that sailboat over?

You should see the climb up & down I have to get to my boat. You want to come carry that righ you described for me? Ha!

Hope you're having fun with your boats.

Thanks!

Kevin Bray
'06 CC Launch 22
FXA-31-4049

 
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Paul
(no login)

BTW............

August 5 2010, 12:15 PM 

Jerry is having fun with boats today, I am hoping to see him in Tennessee later this evening. Update and photos to follow! happy.gif It's part of the new Green Boat Recycling Program here in the US, pretty much centered around Commanders and "almost Commanders" like the 23' Lancer. happy.gif

Regards,

Paul


 
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(Login KL_Bray)

Give him something for me-

August 5 2010, 1:09 PM 

Give him a brick with 3 holes in it. He'll certainly appreciate it, but it may mess up your planned boating activities as he'll insist on going bowling.

Sorry...couldn't help it...but Jerry started it!

Cheers!



Thanks!

Kevin Bray
'06 CC Launch 22
FXA-31-4049

 
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Jerry
(no login)

OK, Kevin, Kevin, Kevin

August 7 2010, 12:23 AM 

Dear Paul and All:
OK Kevin, forget the wood and the metal I-beam ideas. 2 of those recently recurited tackles for the tu longhorn football team should be able to pull that engine out and pass it up to the other. How can you reward them ? Easy. just feed 'em a few steaks off BEVO! I can send you a good recipe for Bar B Q.

Anyway, good luck with the engine. I am working on getting my two 427s working and put into my 31 footer. My boatitus is running hotter than Dave Krugler on his wedding night!
Jerry Summer Palace and 1 less boat.

 
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Kevin Bray
(Login KL_Bray)

Ha! Good one.

August 9 2010, 10:40 AM 

Hilarious. Always look forward to your posts. Congrats on the 'thinning of the herd' at your boat yard. Also glad your 31'er is getting some attention.

Thanks!

Kevin Bray
'06 CC Launch 22
FXA-31-4049

 
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Paul
(no login)

Jerry is not thinning the herd

August 9 2010, 11:02 AM 

If anything, the boat yard is getting a little more cramped these days. Boatitis, not a pretty sight, not a pretty mental, and socially unacceptable in some circles, but what a way to go!

The guy can spin a wrench too, saw it first hand. He is also driving around showing off with a very large aluminum trailer as if to say to everyone, look at my trailer, it's a lot bigger than yours. Ha! (The darn thing could have hauled the QE-II)

Paul

 
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Current Topic - Weight Estimate for 327Q & P32AL
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